Well done BE driver (and the courts)

Peppa Pig

Drivers don't always get the kudos they deserve.
Indo link

jist of article wrote:

Two sisters who sued over being asked to get off a bus have lost their High Court action for damages for defamation and loss of reputation...... improperly travelling on a carer’s pass as the person she had cared for died some years previously, .......
The judge ruled there was no legal basis for the sisters’ claims the driver failed to inquire politely of the circumstances, made innuendos they had failed or refused to buy a fare, injured their character and reputation and was guilty of negligence

vandriver

Quote
Bus Eireann argued, given a “multiplicity of dishonesty offences” of which Ms Dardis was convicted in the past, and one public order offence against Ms Curtis, they had little or no reputation that could be sued upon in defamation, he noted.
Burn

schemingbohemia

I wonder did the dead carer's pass work on the train - seems likely from the article. So Bus Eireann 1 Iarnród Eireann 0

Bray Head

Why on earth do we not have systems that lead to the forfeiture of a carer's pass on the death of person in question?

DSP are quite efficient at stopping carers' allowance in these circumstances. Not sure why it's any different for the travel pass.

Carawaystick

Bray Head wrote: »

Why on earth do we not have systems that lead to the forfeiture of a carer's pass on the death of person in question?

DSP are quite efficient at stopping carers' allowance in these circumstances. Not sure why it's any different for the travel pass.

I presume the DSP loose no money from the fraudulent use of a card after the death of a person. So there's no incentive to block the card.

Atlantic Dawn

That should make them think again...

The judge granted an application by Bus Eireann for costs against the sisters.

PCX

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

That should make them think again...

No it won't because they'll claim they have no money and will at most end up paying a fiver a month.

Only the very rich or people on benefits can afford to sue for defamation.

foggy_lad

The report doesn't mention it but I would think the Garda would have taken the free travel pass from the person not entitled to use it, sounds like it was one of the older cardboard passes so wouldn't stop her getting her payments in the post office but even if it did all she would have to do is go to the social welfare office and get a temporary signing card for the post office.

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

The report doesn't mention it but I would think the Garda would have taken the free travel pass from the person not entitled to use it, sounds like it was one of the older cardboard passes so wouldn't stop her getting her payments in the post office but even if it did all she would have to do is go to the social welfare office and get a temporary signing card for the post office.

I doubt it, if the person she had cared for had died, only the DSP would know. The guards wouldn't know, nor the driver. To me it looks like the BE solicitor did some digging. The DSP have probably asked for it back. Well hopefully they got it.

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I doubt it, if the person she had cared for had died, only the DSP would know. The guards wouldn't know, nor the driver. To me it looks like the BE solicitor did some digging. The DSP have probably asked for it back. Well hopefully they got it.

Yes indeed the Judge mentioned that the pass was improperly used as the person she had been caring for had died "some years previously" so it was most likely the old type cardboard pass and may well be taken up if it is used again. There may even be a prosecution in the pipeline for it's fraudulent use?

Sam Russell

The use of the FTP needs to regulated better. The new plastic one goes some way on this, but much tighter control is needed.

The cornflake box cardboard one should be cancelled from the new year. They have been rolling out the plastic one for years.

foggy_lad

Sam Russell wrote: »

The use of the FTP needs to regulated better. The new plastic one goes some way on this, but much tighter control is needed.

The cornflake box cardboard one should be cancelled from the new year. They have been rolling out the plastic one for years.

It all boils down now to staff of transport companies refusing to accept the new cards when they are damaged and don't scan at gates and ticket machines, what the fraudsters have learned very quickly is that they can report their card missing and get the replacement which they can sell on or rent out to others while they just damage the chip on their own card and most staff wave such people through when they appear with their dodgy passes.

There will be some genuine cases but for the system to work it requires those genuine cases to be told how to get heir card replaced and that they will have to pay cash till that happens.

Sam Russell

CIE needs to up their game as far as revenue protection goes.

I have seen a group of people, mainly women but with children, get off the Dart at Bray. The Women exited the station through the driver's barrier and left the station without validating any ticket. The children went up to the barriers and presumably blagged their way out.

This was in full view of IR employees who did nothing to check them.

At least bus drivers do try and enforce the fare rules and insist that passengers pay their fares.

n97 mini

Rather than paying for a bus ticket they took the train instead. Presumably the ftp worked there. I wonder did anyone follow that up.

BowWow

PCX wrote: »

No it won't because they'll claim they have no money and will at most end up paying a fiver a month.

Only the very rich or people on benefits can afford to sue for defamation.

As their legal team probably worked on a "no foal no fee" basis, costs should be awarded against the legal team. Amount of frivolous cases would drop significantly overnight...

Vic_08

PCX wrote: »

No it won't because they'll claim they have no money and will at most end up paying a fiver a month.

Only the very rich or people on benefits can afford to sue for defamation.

The driver involved could sue them for defamation but even if he won who would pay the costs never mind the award?

Scumbag solicitors will take on a case like this no win no fee if there is a big company to fleece for costs but if you have been defamed by some social welfare parasite then there is no legal recourse unless you are Denis O'Brien wealthy and can fund it for your own amusement.

foggy_lad

Vic_08 wrote: »

The driver involved could sue them for defamation but even if he won who would pay the costs never mind the award?

Scumbag solicitors will take on a case like this no win no fee if there is a big company to fleece for costs but if you have been defamed by some social welfare parasite then there is no legal recourse unless you are Denis O'Brien wealthy and can fund it for your own amusement.

There are also some genuine poorer people who are defamed etc and who should be taking civil cases but can't because they can't get solicitors to take the case and can't afford to pay up front.

Vic_08

Sam Russell wrote: »

CIE needs to up their game as far as revenue protection goes.

I have seen a group of people, mainly women but with children, get off the Dart at Bray. The Women exited the station through the driver's barrier and left the station without validating any ticket. The children went up to the barriers and presumably blagged their way out.

This was in full view of IR employees who did nothing to check them.

At least bus drivers do try and enforce the fare rules and insist that passengers pay their fares.

And all you get for your troubles is constant abuse, verbal and physical, from the scum of our society with no thanks or back-up from anyone in charge.

I have taken or refused countless passes for every reason you can think of;

fake passes
using granny, grandad, random dead relative's pass
no ID with city pass
not signed
not able to give correct name/address (it's printed on the front FFS, you'd be amazed how many are too thick to memorise it)
trying to bring random other person for free on spouse or passholder only pass
passing pass back to second person to use (right in front of me, like I wasn't going to notice :rolleyes: )
pass torn in half so the blank part can be used to print a second one
pass so worn it is unreadable or covered in layers of tape/plastic/cardboard it cannot be inspected properly
getting a relative to have a cross-border voucher issued from ticket office and non pass-holder use it to try to board bus
tap of the pocket "I have a pass" as they try to walk past, when challenged no pass on them after 5 minutes of pretend looking through pocket, bag and a pile of verbal.

The list goes on, barely a day goes by without some suspicious passholders, the old passes are so crap that with a small bit of effort it is impossible to catch a competent fraudster out, it is only the real thicks that can be caught.

Despite the large % of genuine users that have been issued the new cards there are still huge amounts of cardboard passes still being presented for travel. Coincidentally pensioners mostly all use the new cards while the army of working age scummers are still presenting the old ones. I am sure it is just that DSP hasn't got round to them yet, not that a high % of them are fraudulent.

coylemj

The (financial) losers in this case - the solicitors who took on the case on a 'no foal, no fee' basis - no sympathy there obviously but remember that BE had to defend the original case in the Circuit Court (dismissed) and defend it again when those two women appealed to the High Court. Clearly the lawyers thought there was a chance of finding a sympathetic HC judge, otherwise they would have sent the women packing after they lost in the CC.

The unfortunate lesson from this is that as long as there are lawyers prepared to take these cases and the plaintiffs literally have nothing to lose because they are poor with no assets, the public utilities will have to foot the legal bills to defend these cases (even when they 'win') and that ultimately means the bill ends up with the fare paying public.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are also some genuine poorer people who are defamed etc and who should be taking civil cases but can't because they can't get solicitors to take the case and can't afford to pay up front.

They're called the squeezed middle. The upside is if you're brave enough you can represent yourself in court -- I did about 15 years ago in a very simple case.

XPS_Zero

Why are the cornflake box ones still valid?

Tell all remaining holders they have to book a chip card appointment and card in hand by Jan 1st or their card expires you'll see how fast they get one

The only barrier to getting one is the ridiculous requirement to have a passport first, they should have other methods of verification of ID like..,the ones used to get a passport

KCAccidental

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Why are the cornflake box ones still valid?

Tell all remaining holders they have to book a chip card appointment and card in hand by Jan 1st or their card expires you'll see how fast they get one

The only barrier to getting one is the ridiculous requirement to have a passport first, they should have other methods of verification of ID like..,the ones used to get a passport

AFAIK the person is called to appointment, not the other way around.

Pensioners were first to get them.

XPS_Zero

KCAccidental wrote: »

AFAIK the person is called to appointment, not the other way around.

Pensioners were first to get them.

I know but some may be delaying and kicking it forward

Sooner we get rid of them sooner the fraudsters are not able to take advantage of a programme meant for vulnerable people not life long skangers

coylemj

KCAccidental wrote: »

AFAIK the person is called to appointment, not the other way around.

Pensioners were first to get them.

I'm not a pensioner and was called into my SW office a couple of years ago to get one even though I have no use for it - I don't regularly sign on and I don't have free travel. So they could easily have prioritised people with free travel and gotten rid of the 'corn flakes' passes long ago.

XPS_Zero

coylemj wrote: »

I'm not a pensioner and was called into my SW office a couple of years ago to get one even though I have no use for it - I don't regularly sign on and I don't have free travel. So they could easily have prioritised people with free travel and gotten rid of the 'corn flakes' passes long ago.

Everyone needs to be in the system as if you have a pps number you need the ID checked

There were thousands of fake pps numbers rolling around organised crime was claiming a fortune

It will simplify matters to have one if you are made redundant or need time off for injury or illness

coylemj

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Everyone needs to be in the system as if you have a pps number you need the ID checked

'Everyone' doesn't need to be 'in the system' as early as I was. I have never used the card for any official purpose since I got it yet there are thousands of people abusing the free travel scheme (as outlined above) because they still haven't been issued with the new PPS cards.

newacc2015

Sam Russell wrote: »

The use of the FTP needs to regulated better. The new plastic one goes some way on this, but much tighter control is needed.

The cornflake box cardboard one should be cancelled from the new year. They have been rolling out the plastic one for years.

I agree. One thing I cant wrap my head around is how when I get on the bus, I see OAPs with new FTP plastic cards saying they are valid until 2025. Yet CIE forces students to get new travel leap cards every years ( I assume they profit from it) despite most students being in college for 3/4 years anyway. But they are giving FTP valid until 2025 for people who I cant imagine being alive in the next 5 years. Are they constantly updating the data base for people passing on? I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't

dazberry

newacc2015 wrote:

I agree. One thing I cant wrap my head around is how when I get on the bus, I see OAPs with new FTP plastic cards saying they are valid until 2025. Yet CIE forces students to get new travel leap cards every years ( I assume they profit from it) despite most students being in college for 3/4 years anyway. But they are giving FTP valid until 2025 for people who I cant imagine being alive in the next 5 years. Are they constantly updating the data base for people passing on? I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't

If by database you mean the DSP database then yes, deaths, births and marriages, if it needs a cert or licence it's being fed in. Does that feed into (ultimately) the leap card system I don't know - if it doesn't it's only one step away at this point.

OAPs get the FTP at 66, if they are still alive at 76 they are still an OAP. There is no guarantee that a student is still a student from year to year, regardless of the course duration...

Arcade_Tryer

vandriver wrote: »

Quote
Bus Eireann argued, given a “multiplicity of dishonesty offences” of which Ms Dardis was convicted in the past, and one public order offence against Ms Curtis, they had little or no reputation that could be sued upon in defamation, he noted.
Burn

Not really. Shows how ridiculous defamation law is if anything.