Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

MrJones1973

***********************************************************Just going to borrow your first post MrWhite...

Ok new thread.

• Address the points made (rather than the poster).
• Definitely no personal comments judging other posters. Especially the trolls.
• Definitely no telling other posters to leave the thread or 'jog on' etc that is considered back-seat-modding.

***Any New posters to the forum ***
Read the charter.
Also, 'Three months holidays', 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' 'public sector vs' private sector' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff may most likely be deleted from this thread. If you stumble in here and start at this, then you will not be entertained by mods and may find yourself removed from the forum tout suite.

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Ta

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Im gutted. My feeling was having set down this path they should have continued action. Could talks not have been held while Industrial action went on?

Secondly-Once they allowed no derogation for Principals and went for a Nov 7th date-it was clear schools were going to close. If they didnt see that coming then I doubt the SC capacity for strategic thought.

They did gamble on a Gov cave in on s and s but having lost that bet they should have kept pressure on and so what if members signed form saying they would do s and S?
I have heard that boards in a lot of cases had vetted staff ready.
The Asti could have allowed staff to apply for paid s and S.

Im probably resigning Union membership next week.
I know ASTI is only block on the Department totally riding us but I cant go through another HR vote and .

coillsaille

I'm also disappointed in SC's decision yesterday. The number of schools on lockout was set to rapidly decrease today and tomorrow as more and more BOM's arranged to bring in exam years at first followed by other year groups as contingency arrangements got going. There is no way legally or practically that the dept could have withheld pay in that situation. It also was to the benefit of students and parents. It would have given us a big tactical advantage as well as the moral high ground.

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im gutted. My feeling was having set down this path they should have continued action. Could talks not have been held while Industrial action went on?

Secondly-Once they allowed no derogation for Principals and went for a Nov 7th date-it was clear schools were going to close. If they didnt see that coming then I doubt the SC capacity for strategic thought.

They did gamble on a Gov cave in on s and s but having lost that bet they should have kept pressure on and so what if members signed form saying they would do s and S?
I have heard that boards in a lot of cases had vetted staff ready.
The Asti could have allowed staff to apply for paid s and S.

Im probably resigning Union membership next week.
I know ASTI is only block on the Department totally riding us but I cant go through another HR vote and .

It isn't worth it for teachers to lose potentially weeks of their salaries - and have possible eviction or house repossession for inability to pay rent or installments of mortgages - over a paltry payment for S&S.

The ASTI leadership should have given schools more time to make alternative arrangements for S&S. It's possible that many ASTI members voted for action including withdrawal from S&S on the understanding that it would happen in the same way as it did in 2002 and 2003.

The ASTI leadership didn't seem to be interested in exploring the legal route on the issue of S&S payment.

jonseyblub

coillsaille wrote: »

I'm also disappointed in SC's decision yesterday. The number of schools on lockout was set to rapidly decrease today and tomorrow as more and more BOM's arranged to bring in exam years at first followed by other year groups as contingency arrangements got going. There is no way legally or practically that the dept could have withheld pay in that situation. It also was to the benefit of students and parents. It would have given us a big tactical advantage as well as the moral high ground.

Would we still have had the moral high ground if we refused the invitation to the WRC. I seriously doubt it. It would just have been another stick to beat us with.
I actually think it might end up slightly better for us in the long run. By the time we get to vote (if at all) the Nurses and Guards would have had their vote which I think will help bring down the LRA

2011abc

I'd give it till the end of the month before doing anything drastic !It might still work .

acequion

jonseyblub wrote: »

Would we still have had the moral high ground if we refused the invitation to the WRC. I seriously doubt it. It would just have been another stick to beat us with.
I actually think it might end up slightly better for us in the long run. By the time we get to vote (if at all) the Nurses and Guards would have had their vote which I think will help bring down the LRA

I would tend to feel the same.We were being backed into a corner outside the school gates and you can be certain that resolve was starting to weaken amongst the most financially hard up. This way at least we're back at work. It would have been better if we had got the schools back open ourselves but that would have taken too long. And ultimately we have to explore every avenue.

I would strongly advise people email their concerns to head office. ASTI leadership must be left in no doubt that we are not for turning on this.

After that it's a wait and see and maybe less of the panic and more in the way of optimism.

oppenheimer1

acequion wrote: »

I would tend to feel the same.We were being backed into a corner outside the school gates and you can be certain that resolve was starting to weaken amongst the most financially hard up. This way at least we're back at work. It would have been better if we had got the schools back open ourselves but that would have taken too long. And ultimately we have to explore every avenue.

I would strongly advise people email their concerns to head office. ASTI leadership must be left in no doubt that we are not for turning on this.

After that it's a wait and see and maybe less of the panic and more in the way of optimism.

Schools were out for a total of three days and this broke ASTI's resolve? It looks like the consequences of the action were not fully thought through.

ASTI marched their troops to the top of the hill and came back down with nothing apart from the days of lost wages

evolving_doors

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Schools were out for a total of three days and this broke ASTI's resolve? It looks like the consequences of the action were not fully thought through.

ASTI marched their troops to the top of the hill and came back down with nothing apart from the days of lost wages

Why, do you think it's all over now?

oppenheimer1

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Why, do you think it's all over now?

No, ASTI are playing for time. They want to push the dispute out to early next year where they can force the hand of the government by threatening the state exams.

ASTI reached out for a third party intervention in order to lend the climbdown credibility and to save face.

Powerhouse

I think it has been a very satisfactory outcome. The union is heading into independent mediation which would not have even have been considered by government if the industrial action was not called. The idea that this somehow had "broken resolve" makes no sense. The whole point is to get into proper talks - that's how such issues are always resolved. I am not sure this going on for several weeks before getting into similar talks anyway would achieve other than poverty for members and consequent resentment towards union leaders.

oppenheimer1

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think it has been a very satisfactory outcome. The union is heading into independent mediation which would not have even have been considered by government if the industrial action was not called. The idea that this somehow had "broken resolve" makes no sense. The whole point is to get into proper talks - that's how such issues are always resolved. I am not sure this going on for several weeks before getting into similar talks anyway would achieve other than poverty for members and consequent resentment towards union leaders.

The union could have reached out for a third party to mediate without going on strike.

Powerhouse

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No, ASTI are playing for time. They want to push the dispute out to early next year where they can force the hand of the government by threatening the state exams.

ASTI reached out for a third party intervention in order to lend the climbdown credibility and to save face.

Why do you think the Department of Education did not refuse the invitation to mediation if the ASTI was in such a weak position as you imply?

Powerhouse

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The union could have reached out for a third party to mediate without going on strike.

Why would a third party offer to mediate where there is not a demonstrable dispute indicated by industrial action?

oppenheimer1

Powerhouse wrote: »

Why do you think the Department of Education did not refuse the invitation to mediation if the ASTI was in such a weak position as you imply?

Because the department would have been painted as unreasonable and the bad guys if they did

Aufbau

Why do ye feel so bad about it? I would have thought that getting into talks under some outside supervision was the aim of the action.

Mind you, I have doubts about the outcome especially after the time there was a judgement for a pay rise but it was ridden over 'due to economic factors' (not sure when that was).

But still, now the govt knows that the teachers will actually walk the walk, particularly the ASTI principals.

jayzee

Honestly little sense of holding any moral high ground, most outsiders are genuinely baffled at the refusal to join LR A, and staggered by the willingness to go out indefinitely over so little. You may win, but you do have any public support and I feel rank and file member s have been led up the garden path

MrJones1973

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think it has been a very satisfactory outcome. The union is heading into independent mediation which would not have even have been considered by government if the industrial action was not called. The idea that this somehow had "broken resolve" makes no sense. The whole point is to get into proper talks - that's how such issues are always resolved. I am not sure this going on for several weeks before getting into similar talks anyway would achieve other than poverty for members and consequent resentment towards union leaders.

Interesting argument. I will consider it but is it not the case we could have got this mediation and continued action? The more days we closed the better deal to get us back in.

Ask yourselves this question-if a ****ty deal emerges -can you see us reverting back to Industrial action? Not a chance.
As for comments about house repossession-does any teacher have a clue about the mortgage arrears out there? Do you really think one or 2 missed payments would cause that? The bank take no notice until you miss 3

MrJones1973

jayzee wrote: »

Honestly little sense of holding any moral high ground, most outsiders are genuinely baffled at the refusal to join LR A, and staggered by the willingness to go out indefinitely over so little. You may win, but you do have any public support and I feel rank and file member s have been led up the garden path

I dont think any of them are small.
There are several issues
The JC-not resolved
Pay equality-a big issue-not resolved
We have been working for free s and s since September. Perhaps we could have allowed Principals to hire outsiders or allowed staff to do paid s and s . Though Gov would have objected.

Though this issue hardly ever raised-Schools have hardly any middle MGt? Places are going down hill. Is your school ready for JC??

evolving_doors

jayzee wrote: »

Honestly little sense of holding any moral high ground, most outsiders are genuinely baffled at the refusal to join LR A, and staggered by the willingness to go out indefinitely over so little. You may win, but you do have any public support and I feel rank and file member s have been led up the garden path

I was quite surprised at the public support going by the school...
Loads of tradesmen, folk in new 161 cars, taxi drivers, old folk. Although maybe the parents were all home fuming, I don't know!
Then again it's not much of a strike if everything goes on as normal and nobody is put out... Remember how the lunchtime protests went!
Although I think the lunchtime protests were clever in that it brought into the open who was and wasnt in the union... A few joined after it.

The union still have a few plays yet. I.e.
Allowing the dept time to get outsiders in to do substitution... as per their request!

If ASTI action ends then it's all over for those making noise in Lansdowne Road,
I'd agree with openheimer when he says they are playing for time.. That's the card the govt. played this week. Now ASTI plays the same card... Keep the door open long enough for other unions to stick their noise out.

km79

Are we expecting first day's strike pay deduction tomorrow ?
Do they normally give notice of deduction in advance on Asti website ?
For the dec 2014 strike day it was actually a pay packet later than expected ........the Xmas eve one was when it was taken !

man_no_plan

They're going to drag their feet on this on both sides until the end of Nov anyway so that should keep everyone off the roadside for a bit.

I think they couldn't refuse the invitation to mediation.

The problem was the lack of clarity on the whole thing. Nobody knew what the bottom line was or is. Payment for s/s yes clear cut and hopefully the negotiations will say pay them for that they agreed to it.

But that solves SFA. You're still looking at increment freezes and everything else FEMPI has to offer all because of 33hours so you're all hit in the pocket on that.

As for the low pay for new entrants, this was never going to be tied up, but the strikes have drawn attention to it at least.

I think the sense of disappointment some are expressing was always going to come, from the day the ballot papers were printed they had a apse promise of hope and made the strike inevitable. Who would vote against such a proposition?

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

They're going to drag their feet on this on both sides until the end of Nov anyway so that should keep everyone off the roadside for a bit.

Aye, kick the can down the road.

man_no_plan wrote: »

I think they couldn't refuse the invitation to mediation.

The problem was the lack of clarity on the whole thing. Nobody knew what the bottom line was or is.

Well I suppose that's what negotiations are for. We'll never really know what went on behind closed doors, for all we know it's been agreed upon in principle but both sides have to save face by talking the talk outside the doors.

man_no_plan wrote: »

Payment for s/s yes clear cut and hopefully the negotiations will say pay them for that they agreed to it.

I still think the govt. will hold the line on that.... until Lansdowne Road II is figured out.

man_no_plan wrote: »

But that solves SFA. You're still looking at increment freezes and everything else FEMPI has to offer all because of 33hours so you're all hit in the pocket on that.

As for the low pay for new entrants, this was never going to be tied up, but the strikes have drawn attention to it at least.

I think the sense of disappointment some are expressing was always going to come, from the day the ballot papers were printed they had a apse promise of hope and made the strike inevitable. Who would vote against such a proposition?

All of the above will be resolved with Lansdowne Road II and a 'timeline'.

That's what I think anyway. I never get my predictions right though!

littelady

To begin your opening statement stating if you mention 3 months hols, 22 hours work, performance related your post will be deleted to me you are glossing over the facts, they are great benefits and should be at least be allowed to be mentioned.

Now in my job in finance I started off on 29k worked hard and built up experience since the crash those coming in are starting off on 21k. It's tough luck as far as management cares and the roles are been filled.

Regarding the supervision pay, you really are in a great job and you do get well treated and the perks are there regardless if you want to forget them on boards. Just get on with it.

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Blueshirttwat

km79 wrote: »

Are we expecting first day's strike pay deduction tomorrow ?
Do they normally give notice of deduction in advance on Asti website ?
For the dec 2014 strike day it was actually a pay packet later than expected ........the Xmas eve one was when it was taken !

Tomorrow should be deduction for Thursday 27th Oct. And Monday 7th lockout.
But unlikely to have the ability to deduct for 7th. More interesting will be if a deduction appears for the S&S opt out.

km79

why are so many after hours contributors such experts on teachers pay and conditions ?
Don't even need to check posting history anymore can tell by the tone of the post

littelady

.....we're experts because the media is full of strike talk, unions ranting and when your kids are off school you look up the reasons why. We can't get away from it really.

deiseindublin

littelady wrote: »

.....we're experts because the media is full of strike talk, unions ranting and when your kids are off school you look up the reasons why. We can't get away from it really.

So you still don't know anything about the strike and reasons if you're depending on media.

* S&S money under HRA was reneged on
* Equality for LPTs is equality - no matter the conditions of service/hols.

Peppa Pig

deiseindublin wrote: »

So you still don't know anything about the strike and reasons
* S&S money under HRA was reneged on
* Equality for LPTs is equality - no matter the conditions of service/hols.

According to ASTI the strike is not about S&S, its only about pay equality.

Up to 17,500 teachers who are ASTI members are engaging in a second one-day strike today in pursuit of Equal Pay for Equal Work. The union is demanding the restoration of the common basic pay scale for all teachers.

ASTI

deiseindublin

You read one little line in the paper and that's the best you can come up with? I can only presume that paper was published yesterday, 8 November when ASTI were indeed on strike?

There were 2 different formats to the ASTI dispute.
1. S&S was withdrawn, this was not a strike, just stopped doing work that they weren't paid to do, as promised HRA money was reneged on by Government.
2. 7 x 1 day strikes, as you were good enough to point out, was in pursuit of Equal Pay for Equal Work.


Honestly, it's an absolute head wreck to have to continually explain the simplest of detail to non-teachers that think they've it all sewn up.

Peppa Pig

deiseindublin wrote: »

You read one little line in the paper and that's the best you can come up with? I can only presume that paper was published yesterday, 8 November when ASTI were indeed on strike?

It's not from a paper - it's the ASTI website detailing the strike, you know the actual strike, not the industrial action. Maybe you should have opened the link.

deiseindublin

I don't need to open the link. I've already been following every detail of this dispute for 18 months.

You obviously only saw the 2nd half of my other post. Read the first bullet point along with the second and you'll see that I know what it's about.