Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

Chilli Con Kearney

acequion wrote: »

It's interesting that the poster talking the most sense this evening is actually TUI. And that's man_no_plan

While I understand that a lot of people are upset they are not helping matters with their tantrums.

If we all calm down for a few minutes and look at this logically we might see that it's a very difficult, if not impossible, situation. We are dealing with a FG Government who have never been nice to public servants and currently they have the backing of a generally anti public service public and of course their mouthpiece,the media. Add to that the fact that teachers have caved in and backed down on everything since the current campaign,ie "reform" began. So the Gov are not in the least intimidated by teacher unions and they have been consistent in their intransigence from the start.

Add to the mix skittish teachers who really don't want to be on strike. They might do a day here and there but how committed are they to an all out? Teachers are a deeply conservative group by nature and acquiescent to the status quo.Man_no_plan is right that there were loads of ASTI members kicking up a huge fuss about the strikes, the lock out despite the big endorsement to strike.

Add in the fact that the other unions,especially our fellow union,TUI have already conceded to Government demands. Also the fact that there is distrust of union leaders because of their high pay. And when you put it all together it does look insurmountable.

But,for all that, I really hope that the fight isn't over. Like others I hoped it would get thrown out by SC but I can see where they might be coming from as they have to think about all members,especially as there is a small concession on the opt out. But I disagree that there is a better chance that CEC will accept. I am on CEC and I find everybody there very committed and very brave. So I would be confident that it will be rejected.My guess is that it will go to ballot with a motion to reject.What happens after that is anyone's guess.

I admire your political cuteness/awareness. Maybe that's why you're on committee and I'm not.

But I have to say, as a regular member this may drive me to leave. If this has a sniff of going ahead, I have to admit that the union no longer represents my interests as I see it. It will require some deliberation on my part.

As I think about it, perhaps the aim of the FG government all along was to destroy the ASTI, the annoying crowd that tried to show then up. By forcing a hard deal through, they have put the ASTI in a very bad position where members like myself may well leave, thus achieving the FG aim. Just a theory.

Chilli Con Kearney

political analyst wrote: »

The document says that a review of the usage of the CP hours - involving teachers' unions, the Dept and management bodies - has commenced and that it will make recommendations and any changes agreed will be implemented by the start of the 2017/2018 academic year.

This is already happening - its nothing new.

The only genuinely new thing is the 15 year opt out.

acequion

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

I admire your political cuteness/awareness. Maybe that's why you're on committee and I'm not.

But I have to say, as a regular member this may drive me to leave. If this has a sniff of going ahead, I have to admit that the union no longer represents my interests as I see it. It will require some deliberation on my part.

As I think about it, perhaps the aim of the FG government all along was to destroy the ASTI, the annoying crowd that tried to show then up. By forcing a hard deal through, they have put the ASTI in a very bad position where members like myself may well leave, thus achieving the FG aim. Just a theory.

I assure you that I have no more cuteness or awareness than the next person and forget political! I simply believe that the engine of any economy is the worker and I deplore the race to the bottom that Ireland has become.

But I fully agree with everything else you say. I think that FG do want to break the unions a la Thatcher. The days of collective bargaining are sadly at an end, the culture is now managerial /dictatorial and we, as workers,see the results of that in our pay packets and working conditions. They have forced us into either surrender or a long,bitter strike.

And while many might say now that they'll leave the union,a lot won't because they see it as an insurance if they're ever in trouble which,in the current environment has become a possibility for every teacher.

But that's not why I joined a union so if this ends in yet another defeat, I'll probably be leaving too.

Chilli Con Kearney

acequion wrote: »

I assure you that I have no more cuteness or awareness than the next person and forget political! I simply believe that the engine of any society is the worker and I deplore the race to the bottom that Ireland has become.

But I fully agree with everything else you say. I think that FG do want to break the unions a la Thatcher. The days of collective bargaining are sadly at an end, the culture is now managerial /dictatorial and we, as workers,see the results of that in our pay packets and working conditions. They have forced us into either surrender or a long,bitter strike.

And while many might say now that they'll leave the union,a lot won't because they see it as an insurance if they're ever in trouble which,in the current environment has become a possibility for every teacher.

But that's not why I joined a union so if this ends in yet another defeat, I'll probably be leaving too.

Fair play to you and anybody who is involved in committees, branches, etc. People who are getting nothing for organising, giving time to better situations.

Unfortunately, in the race for the bottom, wages and conditions have deteriorated. Costs such as rent/housing have increased greatly. Members will now look at the money they pay and ask if the union represents them and possibly leave. Nobody can blame them. It's like paying for a service and getting nothing or something that is disappointing. Why bother? I fear a lot may loo at it this way.

maude6868

Can we not reject this, withdraw from s&s, Croke Park hrs, inspection co-operation, Junior Cert reform and carry on with teaching. We aren't getting paid for any of them anyhow as it is and won't be paid for them under the new deal.

deiseindublin

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

The only genuinely new thing is the 15 year opt out.

Absolutely. I'm honestly confused about how it took a few weeks to get to this HUGE concession? How often did they actually meet?

acequion wrote: »

So I would be confident that it will be rejected.My guess is that it will go to ballot with a motion to reject.

Here's hoping anyway.

joebloggs32

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

This is already happening - its nothing new.

The only genuinely new thing is the 15 year opt out.

I was at a TUI meeting in mid September and we were told then that this was in the pipeline at that stage, so this is nothing new either.

joebloggs32

maude6868 wrote: »

Can we not reject this, withdraw from s&s, Croke Park hrs, inspection co-operation, Junior Cert reform and carry on with teaching. We aren't getting paid for any of them anyhow as it is and won't be paid for them under the new deal.

Assuming the S&S contingency is in place, then you could, but you would really be leaving the LPT's up the creek without a paddle. They would continue to be denied the ward report, and the pay rises their TUI equivalents are getting.
I take it you are not an LPT

ethical

Ireland has got lots of money but unfortunately it is not for the Public Servants,the race to the bottom is truly on if you happen to be a teacher,nurse,librarian etc and yet there is cash in abundance for the people that sit on selection panels.
It is rumoured that they pocket up to €1000.00 per day to sit on panels (the same people sit on the same panels day after day)and pretend to make the correct selection for vacancies that arise within the education system whether it be CEIST or ETB Schools.
When is there going to be a whistleblower to out those "morons",those corrupt ba*st*rds, who only have their own bank accounts at heart and not the poor unfortunate teacher applicant who is looking for the 6 or 7 timetabled hours that may be available in some school or other.(and of course the "job" is gone already but by way of political correctness and so called (in) equality boxes have to be ticked,so we will call Anthony or Mary or maybe both and they will sit there and look interested for half an hour at a time).
Good old Ireland turns a blind eye to such white collar crime,sure it far easier to arrest the foreign national or the Traveller who nicked some item from the local supermarket!

Inspector Coptoor

I'm still confused as to how this document took 3 weeks to put together and why there was such a "media blackout" on this.

The only thing of any benefit is the €5k increase for LPTs.
It's a 62.5% restoration by 2018 meaning it's less inequality but inequality nonetheless.

I'm raging over the fact that the Junior Cycle and the Croke Park Hours were lumped in here on top of our two issues which were LPT pay and S&S.

I'm disappointed in SC.
Hoping for more from CEC in terms of a rejection but I can see this sham of a document being accepted.

I would like CEC to dismiss it out of hand and for it not to go to a ballot.

To be honest, I'd be happy enough doing S&S for free, not doing Croke Park Hours and continue the non cooperation with the new JC.

MrJones1973

My advice to all members who wanted equality pay or serious middle management structures in school is quit Asti and just do grinds or concentrate on teaching your classes and nothing else.
If we could not get our act together with Ed Byrne and Kieran Christie it ain't going to ever happen.Throw into mix fightback people such as Andrew megaphone Phealan and mark Walshe on SC and you got feeling stars aligned only to go super Nova. Mark Walshe in particular has great talent and if you can get hands on document s he has written you will be truly blessed.
I know mark and Andrew voted against climbdown.
I'm cashing my Asti chips in. Resigning . Back in a few years

man_no_plan

ethical wrote: »

Ireland has got lots of money but unfortunately it is not for the Public Servants,the race to the bottom is truly on if you happen to be a teacher,nurse,librarian etc and yet there is cash in abundance for the people that sit on selection panels.
It is rumoured that they pocket up to €1000.00 per day to sit on panels (the same people sit on the same panels day after day)and pretend to make the correct selection for vacancies that arise within the education system whether it be CEIST or ETB Schools.
When is there going to be a whistleblower to out those "morons",those corrupt ba*st*rds, who only have their own bank accounts at heart and not the poor unfortunate teacher applicant who is looking for the 6 or 7 timetabled hours that may be available in some school or other.(and of course the "job" is gone already but by way of political correctness and so called (in) equality boxes have to be ticked,so we will call Anthony or Mary or maybe both and they will sit there and look interested for half an hour at a time).
Good old Ireland turns a blind eye to such white collar crime,sure it far easier to arrest the foreign national or the Traveller who nicked some item from the local supermarket!

If you have a whistle to blow then blow it. Baseless accusations that have little to do with this thread. If you have some evidence of wrong doing remain on your high horse and ride it to the nearest Garda station.

Alteratively, I haven't heard much from Catherine Murphy recently, maybe you can disclose to her and she will blow the lid off the scandal.... Unless she's one of them?

You are so disrespectful to the hundreds of people who get jobs on their own merit every year to suggest they only get them because of pull.

Are you a teacher? Who did you know on the inside? Was the nun on the panel your aunt?

implausible

judeboy101 wrote:

What kills me is so little movement on the non money end e.g CP hrs and Junior cert. Also not agreement in principle to the idea of pay parity.

As far as the Govt is concerned, any movement has been made - they've made 10 of the CP hours flexible and the proposed 60/40 SEC/school assessment at JC is long gone.

The new programme is in, we have to be seen to do CP hours, those things were never going to be negotiable.

Steps towards pay parity have been made, expect every further step to be painfully fought over and negotiated until we get to maybe 80%. It'd be financial and political suicide for Paschal and co. to commit to the principle of pay parity.

ethical

man_no_plan wrote: »

If you have a whistle to blow then blow it. Baseless accusations that have little to do with this thread. If you have some evidence of wrong doing remain on your high horse and ride it to the nearest Garda station.

Alteratively, I haven't heard much from Catherine Murphy recently, maybe you can disclose to her and she will blow the lid off the scandal.... Unless she's one of them?

You are so disrespectful to the hundreds of people who get jobs on their own merit every year to suggest they only get them because of pull.

Are you a teacher? Who did you know on the inside? Was the nun on the panel your aunt?

Started already ? Have we ,typical of the Irish mentality! Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours while we destroy the country and turn on the people that are trying to be honest.I wouldnt expect anything else really from a so called know it all!

Rossdoc81

Someone needs to do the maths on this:

Pre 2011 with hons dip + hons degree + starting on point 3 of the scale

= 33 041 + 1236 + 4918

= €39 195


After phase 2 of the reinstatement younger teachers will have

= €33 806


Thats still a difference of

= €5389 per year

/ 52 = €103.63 per week


Post 2012 teacher start on €31 009 so thats a 34% restoration for them.

I don't know where the media are coming up with this 60-70% restoration figure.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

PS. This deal is ridiculous and we need to reinstate our industrial action ASAP

man_no_plan

ethical wrote: »

Started already ? Have we ,typical of the Irish mentality! Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours while we destroy the country and turn on the people that are trying to be honest.I wouldnt expect anything else really from a so called know it all!

Call me what you like ethical. You will achieve nothing here posting about wrongdoing. Coming on here calling people bastards and accusing them of lining their pockets is all well and good but gets nobody anywhere.

I'm not turning on you for being honest, I'm telling you that if you know that something is wrong to do something about it. If you already have I apologise.

There is too much if a tendency to complain but do nothing in our job and its very easy to post anonymous stuff online.

feardeas

So to begin in the interests of full disclosure, as I’ve said before, I voted against the action from the beginning. Believed the LRA was manageable as it actually involved getting money back as opposed to losing more. Felt that the deal to restore the degree allowance was a step in the right direction. Believed that action would not get anything more.

Had hoped that the talks would get something like a declared intent on restoration assuming continued economic growth. That is quite a big assumption at the minute. I also thought there might be some movement on CP hours over and above what had been agreed with the other unions. I see there’s another review so who knows what might happen.

The only new item is the opt out which I wouldn’t qualify for anyway. I think they will make that as unappealing as possible. I actually think teachers are best placed to supervise pupils in class situations and in the school building and grounds. I remember before 08 when the rota was the last resort and there was a distinct lack of disciple around the place when sub teachers were in.

The junior cycle seems to be an absolute farce in terms of the fact that there is nothing concrete that those of us that teach English could hold on to. It seems the AT will be held later in the year which means the CBA will have to be done in a speedy way. Heartache.

I see that the Fightback group are suggesting we keep fighting. The S and S should be done on a voluntary basis to keep schools open on days other than the strike days and that all other action should continue. It is laughable. It is also laughable that there were AAA public representatives on picket lines when teaching colleagues not in the union were told they were not welcome. The AAA/PBP do not speak for me nor do their policies hold much hope. There is anger on the union FB page and Voice for Teachers and here also.

Earlier in the week I said here that it would be bad leadership not to offer a recommendation on the deal when it came. Having thought about what is on offer I don’t think they will. I assume it will be put to ballot with perhaps no recommendation. That will be a matter for CEC. However this time they need to be very clear as to what their plan is if it is rejected. What form continued action will take and for how long. Do they envisage rolling strike days remembering that we now know what each of those costs us? There can be no ambiguity about legal advice. It must be clear as to what their plan is.

I had heard the government were intent on solving the guards [their success is debatable pending the ballot] and would then hold the line. So far that seems to be happening.

As for a result of a ballot. No idea. I heard colleagues say before the news of the deal broke that they would accept anything rather than head back out. Not sure if that is representative or not.

The union will lose members either way. For me if this is rejected and there is further action with loss of salary, no prospect of post restoration, no S and S payment, no €1000 and no benefit that might come from whatever LRA 2 brings then although I believe in a union and the protection it can provide I would seriously consider leaving. There are many others who would do the same if it were accepted.

Sad thing is all of this was foreseeable and avoidable but to coin a phrase we are where we are.

creamdog88

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Assuming the S&S contingency is in place, then you could, but you would really be leaving the LPT's up the creek without a paddle. They would continue to be denied the ward report, and the pay rises their TUI equivalents are getting.
I take it you are not an LPT

what is an lpt

creamdog88

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It's quite simple,
ASTI Choose Lansdowne Road or be prepared for very long strikes. Not much anything anyone at CEC can bargain with if the dept know that there's no appetite for further strikes.

A few days out were easily wiped out by US election result and Gardai. The public have very short memories when it comes to education...
Maybe 2nd yr parents would worry about Jc, 3Rd yr parents will throw a few shapes but forget about it once the exam is over.
S&S... Any non teachers understand what that's about, there's so much history attached ?
LPT... Public just see the starting 'salary'...3months holidays, golden pensions, bad teachers.

No point in giving out.

whats cec

joebloggs32

creamdog88 wrote: »

what is an lpt

Lesser paid teacher. Is those who entered since 2011.

MrJones1973

I agree fully with all critiques of strategy. If we abandoned s and s attack why did we abadon 7 days as well . Talks should not have begun without pre conditions. They set a trap and in we walked

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I agree fully with all critiques of strategy. If we abandoned s and s attack why did we abadon 7 days as well . Talks should not have begun without pre conditions. They set a trap and in we walked

The only precondition would have been ASTI to join LR! Govt were sticking to their line of not negotiating with those outside LR..... Except Gardai.
The talks were meaningless and a way of saving face. The dept. were gracious enough to play along

TheDriver

Gebgbegb wrote: »

The only precondition would have been ASTI to join LR! Govt were sticking to their line of not negotiating with those outside LR..... Except Gardai.
The talks were meaningless and a way of saving face. The dept. were gracious enough to play along

unfortunately I tend to agree, ASTI needed an out and the Dept gave them one. It was getting obvious that the hard line was too hard and unsustainable.

I am unsure if it will be accepted and still has a large amount of questions to answer regarding CP hours and the like

Aufbau

From the govt's refusal to equalise the three payscales, and it's refusal to state any agreement with the principle of pay equalisation, it obviously believes that the Public Service Pay Commission will solidly support the concept of a permanently reduced public service pay. Even the guards didn't get pay equalisation.

These proposals came about from discussions between all teacher unions, the DES and the DPER. If the ASTI reject them, do the terms of the proposals not still stand for the other unions? Would they have to ballot, or do the terms just come into effect for them as they're already in the LRA? Maybe the proposals would just be included in LRA2.

I can't see any advantage for the ASTI in accepting. If industrial action is resumend, you'd stay out of the LRA with its conditions of compliance with any change, and have no CP hours. You'd have no S&S. The job might become bearable though lower paid. If the remaining strike days bring about no change of payment for LPTs and there is no appetite for more strike, then leave it be - the commission report couldn't be far away. But keep the ban on S&S.

The problem might be the imposition of change, and imposition of reduced pay.

What I find so difficult to accept is the copper-fastening of the concept of different payment per union, rather than payment for the job. The govt is basically firming up two different types of second-level teacher, with two different rates of pay, within the same types of school.

How can this policy be accepted by the whole education system in the country? Is there no way of getting the management bodies and teaching council onside about this and the culture of part-time teaching?

I do think part of the reasoning of the govt is to get rid of the ASTI: Join the LRA and make your union irrelevant v. don't join the LRA and all new teachers will join the TUI. And hang on till the PSPC report, and we'll change the job out of all recognition anyway.

MrJones1973

Gebgbegb wrote: »

The only precondition would have been ASTI to join LR! Govt were sticking to their line of not negotiating with those outside LR..... Except Gardai.
The talks were meaningless and a way of saving face. The dept. were gracious enough to play along

Your thesis is not entirely certain. We were offered talks/negotiations. These talks did take place outside of LR. They had to as we aint in it. S and opt was not in LR but everything else was.
Effectively the Union should have realized much quicker that talks were just window dressing and walked away. Collapse them. They choose not to.

The central problem is the SC seemed to lack direction in November. Simply accepting a mediator was a bad move. It should have announced 7 days were going head and offered to present a document to a mediator.

I realise there might have been technical problems around proceeding the way I wanted to proceed . The mediator probably would say no talks while action going on but its astounding the ASTI team didnt just walk away from this as its a non offer and specify its basically LR.
Im done here as I think Im going around in circles. Its a Mess. Im hoping CEC just reject it but doubt they will. I hope they dont ballot members but I doubt they will. I hope members reject this but I doubt they will.
I will just turn to drink!!

Benicetomonty

I think the proposal not to pay us for S and S until next September even if we agree to the documents proposals is an incredibly hostile move which has the potential to galvanise. See what happens Saturday.

km79

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I think the proposal not to pay us for S and S until next September even if we agree to the documents proposals is an incredibly hostile move which has the potential to galvanise. See what happens Saturday.

Where does it say that ?
Im assuming if accepted the payment will be made then
They badly need to put up a FAQ on it
It's so vague in parts

Benicetomonty

km79 wrote: »

Where does it say that ?
Im assuming if accepted the payment will be made then
They badly need to put up a FAQ on it
It's so vague in parts

S and S section under opt in. Just re read it there and seems to relate to teachers who wish to opt back into s and s, but had a member of SC tell me today everyone was affected. Possible they (and me) jumping to conclusions with that one...

Edit: yeah, bad info on that post. Not the case, s and s would be paid upon acceptance. Dont know about back dating, probably unlikely

BoatMad

But I fully agree with everything else you say. I think that FG do want to break the unions a la Thatcher. The days of collective bargaining are sadly at an end, the culture is now managerial /dictatorial and we, as workers,see the results of that in our pay packets and working conditions. They have forced us into either surrender or a long,bitter strike.

as an outsider ( but married to a teacher ) , I see no evidence the Gov want to break any unions , in fact quite the opposite. I think that to expect the ASTI to get a better or different deal then LRA , when LRA has teachers unions inside it already , was just ridiculous. The public mood was very anti teacher ( and anti PS at the moment) because the average non-PS workers feels very hard done by and is in no mood for any concessions to a group they already seen as in " gilded cages"

The key with battles is to pick the ones that you can win, this , in my opinion, isnt one of them

creamdog88

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Your thesis is not entirely certain. We were offered talks/negotiations. These talks did take place outside of LR. They had to as we aint in it. S and opt was not in LR but everything else was.
Effectively the Union should have realized much quicker that talks were just window dressing and walked away. Collapse them. They choose not to.

The central problem is the SC seemed to lack direction in November. Simply accepting a mediator was a bad move. It should have announced 7 days were going head and offered to present a document to a mediator.

I realise there might have been technical problems around proceeding the way I wanted to proceed . The mediator probably would say no talks while action going on but its astounding the ASTI team didnt just walk away from this as its a non offer and specify its basically LR.
Im done here as I think Im going around in circles. Its a Mess. Im hoping CEC just reject it but doubt they will. I hope they dont ballot members but I doubt they will. I hope members reject this but I doubt they will.
I will just turn to drink!!

whats cec