Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

MrJones1973

Look . Im telling this will be passed. Doesnt matter what CEC said or SC. SC recommended. Gen sec/President found wanting. Members felt they were left in dark November. All this has occurred before. Ballot them/Garrote them until they bend knee. Expect a statement from Bruton threatening redundancies if we dont sign. Its over folks. My advice is get a box set/take up excessive drinking or a new hobby.

Momentum lost.

If you find your school/job manageable at moment be thankful.

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

ballot = game over

Hra was sent out for reballot with a no recommendation wasn't it?

And that was passed even without all the lockout furore behind it

HR had recommendation to reject. Leadership did roadshow at your expense giving opposite view. HR passed.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Look . Im telling this will be passed. Doesnt matter what CEC said or SC. SC recommended. Gen sec/President found wanting. Members felt they were left in dark November. All this has occurred before. Ballot them/Garrote them until they bend knee. Expect a statement from Bruton threatening redundancies if we dont sign. Its over folks. My advice is get a box set/take up excessive drinking or a new hobby.

Momentum lost.

If you find your school/job manageable at moment be thankful.

The James bond philosophy, "a thousand no's and one yes, means yes"

gavwaldo

I have a vote and I vote reject

TheDriver

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1203/836255-asti-teacher-talks/

evolving_doors

From RTE

The ASTI teachers' union is to ballot its 17,000 members on whether or not to accept proposals aimed at ending the union's dispute with Government.

The ballot will be issued with a recommendation, from the union's 180-member Central Executive Committee, that the offer be rejected.

The Committee made the decision at a meeting held in Dublin today.

The dispute led to several days of school closures over the past two months. Industrial action was suspended three weeks ago to allow conciliation talks to take place.

Members will now be balloted on the outcome of those talks.

coillsaille

2011abc wrote: »

You must be joking he would have been the worst but for the fact one of his predecessors was bleeding the place dry ! You got a reliable source that president was arguing against SC for CEC debate ?

What he says is accurate. I heard from a SC member that the president vetoed their move to reject.

Terri26

It had to come to CEC. It was a 'change' to a pay deal. And SC did recommend that CEC reject the deal.

2011abc

Sure at that rate DEptcould keep offering one cent extra and tie us up in ballots for years ! Strong leadership is needed here .At the risk of sounding 'undemocratic' ( funny how there were no ballots on our sick leave being halved etc etc ) some elements of the membership sometimes need to be protected from themselves ! A lot of LPTs have tragically been bought for crumbs .Sad that it was allowed get this bad for them/ us .Will be a lot worse if we cave now .Last decade saw us passed out financially by anybody who could wield a hammer , next may very well see working at checkouts/bars etc not only a fallback extra money earner for LPTs but a realistic long term financial alternative to teaching .The cost of the Masters fees ( after ignoring the two year duration) would give the check out worker a head start of a fair few years ...

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Look . Im telling this will be passed. Doesnt matter what CEC said or SC. SC recommended. Gen sec/President found wanting. Members felt they were left in dark November. All this has occurred before. Ballot them/Garrote them until they bend knee. Expect a statement from Bruton threatening redundancies if we dont sign. Its over folks. My advice is get a box set/take up excessive drinking or a new hobby.

Momentum lost.

If you find your school/job manageable at moment be thankful.

I am really getting tired of you and I don't care at this point if I get a ban for attacking you! From your constant campaign of SC bashing I am convinced that your attacks are personal and that you have another agenda.

The reason that HR passed was because the then GS embarked on a countrywide campaign to have it passed despite the wishes of the CEC. You know that full well.

I think you are completely wrong that this will pass though I suspect that [for your own reasons] you want it to. I would have preferred to see these [non]proposals rejected outright today but that motion did not get the required two thirds majority because a lot of CEC members felt it imperative to consult the members and hopefully strengthen the mandate.

My own feeling is that we probably won't get another 80 percent No because there will be those who just want to be done with it and will vote yes for that reason alone.And there will also be those who will be terrorised by the threats of Bruton and his cronies, you're right there. But I confidently predict that a majority will stick with their earlier resolve.

I have faith in my collegues and in their resolve. They're not skittish idiots.They're educated professionals and the majority are utterly sick of where these agreements have led us. And I also have faith in the current leadership of the union.I am watching them at close range and I don't see the remotest hint of a sell out. Quite the contrary!

If we're let down this time,it will be by rank and file members. By people like yourself!

doc_17

After playing tough on so many issues and closing schools for 3 days out of 4, then going into talks that lasted 3 weeks and coming out with nothing extra (an opt out for those teaching over 15 years is nothing extra for the LPTs), I believe that the ASTI have to reject this. Otherwise the narrative will be that the ASTI will talk tough but when the going gets tough they will wilt.

Stay out of LRA, and as a punishment to the government withdraw from cooperation with the Inspectorate or SSE, or some other form of action. A new deal will be brokered with the wider PS next year and by saying to the government "ok you're giving us nothing but we have principles, this is what happens" you will put yourselves in a very strong position to negotiate next time.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

After playing tough on so many issues and closing schools for 3 days out of 4, then going into talks that lasted 3 weeks and coming out with nothing extra (an opt out for those teaching over 15 years is nothing extra for the LPTs), I believe that the ASTI have to reject this. Otherwise the narrative will be that the ASTI will talk tough but when the going gets tough they will wilt.

Stay out of LRA, and as a punishment to the government withdraw from cooperation with the Inspectorate or SSE, or some other form of action. A new deal will be brokered with the wider PS next year and by saying to the government "ok you're giving us nothing but we have principles, this is what happens" you will put yourselves in a very strong position to negotiate next time.

But the govt. won't negotiate with those outside LR.

doc_17

Gebgbegb wrote: »

But the govt. won't negotiate with those outside LR.

The Gardai?

If ASTI go into LRA after all that's happened, there'll be no need to be worried any future negotiations - game, set, match and championship to the government.

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

I am really getting tired of you and I don't care at this point if I get a ban for attacking you! From your constant campaign of SC bashing I am convinced that your attacks are personal and that you have another agenda.

The reason that HR passed was because the then GS embarked on a countrywide campaign to have it passed despite the wishes of the CEC. You know that full well.

I think you are completely wrong that this will pass though I suspect that [for your own reasons] you want it to. I would have preferred to see these [non]proposals rejected outright today but that motion did not get the required two thirds majority because a lot of CEC members felt it imperative to consult the members and hopefully strengthen the mandate.

My own feeling is that we probably won't get another 80 percent No because there will be those who just want to be done with it and will vote yes for that reason alone.And there will also be those who will be terrorised by the threats of Bruton and his cronies, you're right there. But I confidently predict that a majority will stick with their earlier resolve.

I have faith in my collegues and in their resolve. They're not skittish idiots.They're educated professionals and the majority are utterly sick of where these agreements have led us. And I also have faith in the current leadership of the union.I am watching them at close range and I don't see the remotest hint of a sell out. Quite the contrary!

If we're let down this time,it will be by rank and file members. By people like yourself!

Let the moderator decide what they want . My critique stands. SC decided to go for nov 7th to withdraw s and s. I agreed with that. I knew this would mean schools closed. I assumed they did. I also assumed we would be taken off pay roll. I don't think they forsaw that or had the legal advice ready for this inevitability even if they did. To be fair they were probably calling the government bluff
Anyway once the government pulled us off payroll it became messy . Some members paid some not. The solution to this was to go all out or revert back to 7 days strike. What did they do ? Run into a talk process without any pre conditions?
It's a democracy aqueion and much as you wish your opposition to shut up you can't do that. As elected officials they have to be open to criticism. If they can't they should not have run.

This will pass. Do i want it to ? No of course not but members were not sure what was going on in Nov. The game plan will be the exact same as always. Only game in town. Redundancies etc. We did roughly the same plays. A few token days . To be fair JC campaign has gone on for awhile but 3 days was a joke.


Even though I find him painful I had to agree with fintan o Mahoney that SC had not prepared ground on s and s,even though most members with a brain should have known what Nov 7th meant most hadn't a clue
Momentum lost. This will pass . Bet any money on it. I wish it were not so.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Let the moderator decide what they want . My critique stands. SC decided to go for nov 7th to withdraw s and s. I agreed with that. I knew this would mean schools closed. I assumed they did. I also assumed we would be taken off pay roll. I don't think they forsaw that or had the legal advice ready for this inevitability even if they did. To be fair they were probably calling the government bluff
Anyway once the government pulled us off payroll it became messy . Some members paid some not. The solution to this was to go all out or revert back to 7 days strike. What did they do ? Run into a talk process without any pre conditions?
It's a democracy aqueion and much as you wish your opposition to shut up you can't do that. As elected officials they have to be open to criticism. If they can't they should not have run.

This will pass. Do i want it to ? No of course not but members were not sure what was going on in Nov. The game plan will be the exact same as always. Only game in town. Redundancies etc. We did roughly the same plays. A few token days . To be fair JC campaign has gone on for awhile but 3 days was a joke.


Even though I find him painful I had to agree with fintan o Mahoney that SC had not prepared ground on s and s,even though most members with a brain should have known what Nov 7th meant most hadn't a clue
Momentum lost. This will pass . Bet any money on it. I wish it were not so.

I have no problem with criticism and no problem with opposing views,yes indeed that's democracy. What I don't like and find suspicious is the constant malevolent harping /nagging about perceived errors in an industrial war. In such a serious situation errors are inevitable. Dramatising them and constantly harping on about them as if they were fatal flaws is either malevolent or suspicious or both. It still looks as if you want this to pass.You actually stated a few pages back that you'll probably vote yes. But if,deep down, you really don't want this why not let the events of November back in November, accept that this is where we are now and get behind the campaign??

The error you keep on about was not giving principals a derogation to make contingency plans, risking that the Gov might call our bluff and /or not getting legal advice. I reckon they did get legal advice but that it may not have been very clear cut as it rarely is in matters of industrial relations.

While you might want all out strike you're in the minority on that one. The reality is that teachers have had so many hair cuts over the years they simply cannot afford your "long and bitter strike" Alternative strategies such as those suggested by doc_17 above might be more palatable to members.

Also you are plain wrong that they went into talks without preconditions. There were preconditions on both sides entering talks. Our preconditions were that the directive on non cooperation with JC and CP hours remain and theirs was that strike action be suspended pending the outcome of talks. That's how mediation works. While you are perfectly entitled to feel that they should not have entered talks, a majority on SC democratically voted to do so.

The ground is always shifting in such important matters. We are where we are now and it is absolutely pointless banging on about the past and predicting doom and gloom in the future.You're just depressing yourself and everybody else by doing that.

The members will now decide and no body can predict with any certainty what that decision will be.

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

I have no problem with criticism and no problem with opposing views,yes indeed that's democracy. What I don't like and find suspicious is the constant malevolent harping /nagging about perceived errors in an industrial war. In such a serious situation errors are inevitable. Dramatising them and constantly harping on about them as if they were fatal flaws is either malevolent or suspicious or both. It still looks as if you want this to pass.You actually stated a few pages back that you'll probably vote yes. But if,deep down, you really don't want this why not let the events of November back in November, accept that this is where we are now and get behind the campaign??

The error you keep on about was not giving principals a derogation to make contingency plans, risking that the Gov might call our bluff and /or not getting legal advice. I reckon they did get legal advice but that it may not have been very clear cut as it rarely is in matters of industrial relations.

While you might want all out strike you're in the minority on that one. The reality is that teachers have had so many hair cuts over the years they simply cannot afford your "long and bitter strike" Alternative strategies such as those suggested by doc_17 above might be more palatable to members.

Also you are plain wrong that they went into talks without preconditions. There were preconditions on both sides entering talks. Our preconditions were that the directive on non cooperation with JC and CP hours remain and theirs was that strike action be suspended pending the outcome of talks. That's how mediation works. While you are perfectly entitled to feel that they should not have entered talks, a majority on SC democratically voted to do so.

The ground is always shifting in such important matters. We are where we are now and it is absolutely pointless banging on about the past and predicting doom and gloom in the future.You're just depressing yourself and everybody else by doing that.

The members will now decide and no body can predict with any certainty what that decision will be.

I'm done. I'm sick of being personally abused. Malevolent harping? You have no idea if they got legal advice or not. No idea. Leaders make mistakes. Of course they do They need to apologise or explain if they do. Neither has happened in the month that has occurred . We still don't know if they got legal advice or not ??
As for being in a minority on all out strike you are probably right but it's a sizeable minority. Exactly how has the game plans of last few years worked out??
I have served my union for over a decade at all levels. It's affected my career negatively. I have been on CEC for years. I have taken criticism in all my elected years. Part of package
I was in shock when I said i would vote yes.
Now leave me alone . Ballot to accept and don't take your anger out on me. Prepare for upset

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I'm done. I'm sick of being personally abused. Malevolent harping? You have no idea if they got legal advice or not. No idea. Leaders make mistakes. Of course they do They need to apologise or explain if they do. Neither has happened in the month that has occurred . We still don't know if they got legal advice or not ??
As for being in a minority on all out strike you are probably right but it's a sizeable minority. Exactly how has the game plans of last few years worked out??
I have served my union for over a decade at all levels. It's affected my career negatively. I have been on CEC for years. I have taken criticism in all my elected years. Part of package
I was in shock when I said i would vote yes.
Now leave me alone . Ballot to accept and don't take your anger out on me. Prepare for upset

Ultimately,I'm not the one who is angry,Mr White. You are. And I'm glad you're done. You need to take those issues up directly with the ASTI,rather than constantly going on about it here. There are many people doing their absolute best despite a very difficult climate and whether intentionally or otherwise,you are giving offence. So you should not be surprised if you feel "personally abused."

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

Ultimately,I'm not the one who is angry,Mr White. You are. And I'm glad you're done. You need to take those issues up directly with the ASTI,rather than constantly going on about it here. There are many people doing their absolute best despite a very difficult climate and whether intentionally or otherwise,you are giving offence. So you should not be surprised if you feel "personally abused."

I'm entitled to express views. So are you. If you took offense that's your issue. Nobody else has here. Should we create a " safe space " here !?
The Asti has to decide long term to either work within agreements or really go all out . The grand old Duke of York strategy is not working. Reject first offer. Take second should be plan. Not what we presently do.

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

I am really getting tired of you and I don't care at this point if I get a ban for attacking you! From your constant campaign of SC bashing I am convinced that your attacks are personal and that you have another agenda.

The reason that HR passed was because the then GS embarked on a countrywide campaign to have it passed despite the wishes of the CEC. You know that full well.

I think you are completely wrong that this will pass though I suspect that [for your own reasons] you want it to. I would have preferred to see these [non]proposals rejected outright today but that motion did not get the required two thirds majority because a lot of CEC members felt it imperative to consult the members and hopefully strengthen the mandate.

My own feeling is that we probably won't get another 80 percent No because there will be those who just want to be done with it and will vote yes for that reason alone.And there will also be those who will be terrorised by the threats of Bruton and his cronies, you're right there. But I confidently predict that a majority will stick with their earlier resolve.

I have faith in my collegues and in their resolve. They're not skittish idiots.They're educated professionals and the majority are utterly sick of where these agreements have led us. And I also have faith in the current leadership of the union.I am watching them at close range and I don't see the remotest hint of a sell out. Quite the contrary!

If we're let down this time,it will be by rank and file members. By people like yourself!

Ah c'mon, Just use the ignore function, attack the point not the person.
Warning given.
MOD

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I'm entitled to express views. So are you. If you took offense that's your issue. Nobody else has here. Should we create a " safe space " here !?
The Asti has to decide long term to either work within agreements or really go all out . The grand old Duke of York strategy is not working. Reject first offer. Take second should be plan. Not what we presently do.

The above is twisting things! When did I ever even intimate that I want a safe space? And when did I suggest that you're not entitled to express views? Express views, great. Maybe reiterate for the purposes of clarity and emphasis. But constantly repeating the same thing!! And how do you know for a fact that you're not offending people?? And with the constant record do you not think that you might be at best, irritating?

And unfortunately you haven't changed the record! You're back again with your "grand old Duke of York" theory. And back harping on about all out strikes while knowing full well that ASTI members don't really want to take that route unless they absolutely have to.

So look I'm done arguing with you!

2011abc

We're heading into "Get a room !" territory here guys ;-)

dory

I've read a lot of this thread but not all of it.
Have we figured out yet if ASTI members will be paid for S&S? I've read the terms of the new deal and it's very unclear. It's going to be the deciding factor for a lot in my school.

Aufbau

You shouldn't need to vote for the new deal in order to get paid for S&S. Payment for S&S was covered in the last deal.

If you vote for the new deal, you're voting to join the LRA with all that entails - no industrial action, full cooperation with the new Junior Cert, CP hours, unequal pay scales into the future etc.

It also includes payment for S&S which would become part of the pay scale. Which the govt already agreed to for ASTI teachers, in the HRA.

So you'd be taking on a lot, to get payment for something they already agreed to pay you for.

km79

dory wrote: »

I've read a lot of this thread but not all of it.
Have we figured out yet if ASTI members will be paid for S&S? I've read the terms of the new deal and it's very unclear. It's going to be the deciding factor for a lot in my school.

This line of thinking is why it will be passed
It's why we are where we are with worsening conditions every year
700 euro BEFORE tax
Ill gladly continue to sacrifice that in exchange for having my evenings free of mind numbing CP hours

feardeas

feardeas wrote:

There are many reasons and yet I feel very much that one should be unionised. However I am conflicted because I can not say that I think this is the right strategy so frankly I'm at a loss.

km79 wrote:

This line of thinking is why it will be passed It's why we are where we are with worsening conditions every year 700 euro BEFORE tax Ill gladly continue to sacrifice that in exchange for having my evenings free of mind numbing CP hours

To be increased to 1500 by next September. Plus the 1000 under LRA. All pay is described before tax. Come on.

km79

feardeas wrote: »

To be increased to 1500 by next September. Plus the 1000 under LRA. All pay is described before tax. Come on.

Didn't we get the first 1000 euro despite being outside LRA last January......

MrJones1973

ASTI members have a simple choice

Go Into LR or go outside LR in a serious way.
People have mentioned a middle ground. I would be open to that .

Leadership need to spell out the strategy if we reject this deal.
Prepare for this game plan by Government. It generally works.
Redundancy will rear its head
More Cut backs to salary
Ward report denied to New entrants
No pay increase

A new pay deal has been mooted but dont expect this to deal with

Middle Mgt
Or bridge Gap further on new entrants

My view remains an all out is only way to counter the above. A few days strike will not rattle the Government.Yes-I know there is no stomach for this. If not, our best hope is to just be a temp brake on deterioration. Its still a good job relatively speaking.
Unless the Leadership have a clear plan to counter Government attack-this ballot will pass by 60% Plus.

It will be interesting to see if IMN journalists strike over what their Company is doing to Pension Fund. Independent newspapers. Interesting in that they have been so anti union

feardeas

km79 wrote:

Didn't we get the first 1000 euro despite being outside LRA last January......

We got it because the HRA was still in situ I think. It seems this next payment is contingent on acceptance of LRA/current deal. Plus I'd imagine any thing that might come from the new talks and pay commission. Anyway I swore I'd keep my whist from now on.

MrJones1973

A way around croke park hours would be an extra class a week. I would pick that over croke park hours anyday

ethical

There are some schools that never did the silly wasteful CP hours,yet they were signed off on by very understanding Principals! No one suffered! Teachers were more willing to put in the hard work and train up professionally in their own time and the school community benefited as a whole.Maybe ASTI members should sign up and follow this lead.