Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

judeboy101

Looks like we're on our own lads

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-gra-accept-labour-court-deal-3120945-Dec2016/

MrJones1973

Guards showed more balls. Government caved into a mutiny. Withdrawing labour for a day won't do it for us but a few weeks would but no balls Asti won't ever do this .

paddybarry

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

A way around croke park hours would be an extra class a week. I would pick that over croke park hours anyday

That would result in a loss of teaching jobs in schools and as such is a non runner for Union.

MrJones1973

ethical wrote: »

There are some schools that never did the silly wasteful CP hours,yet they were signed off on by very understanding Principals! No one suffered! Teachers were more willing to put in the hard work and train up professionally in their own time and the school community benefited as a whole.Maybe ASTI members should sign up and follow this lead.

Most principals too conservative and too rule abiding to do above. The JMB has them under thumb

MrJones1973

paddybarry wrote: »

That would result in a loss of teaching jobs in schools and as such is a non runner for Union.

Or be more inventive. Teachers submit to extra 40 minute planning time . Ie they must be in classroom at x time to do planning. During day. We all know though bull **** agenda in department loves these meetings. In my school teachers ignore whatever plan is drawn up, as the coordinator ,if one exists, has no authority. But fear not ,for leadership teams (the latest wheez ) ,is on way to steer us right .(sarcasm warning

You will bend Knee ASTI in January and you are patheitc. (union) I wont comment further . I know most of you are rejectionists but your leaders blew it in Nov
Get a box set

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

Looks like we're on our own lads

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-gra-accept-labour-court-deal-3120945-Dec2016/

Are the guards now in the LRA?

jonseyblub

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I wont comment further .

If I had a euro for every time you said that.....

amacca

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

But fear not ,for leadership teams (the latest wheez ) ,is on way to steer us right .

ffs.....they had that type of nonsense when i worked in directory enquiries......it got old really fast and usually got in the way of doing the job..............while the usual useless blow hard clip board wielding yes men/women climbed over each other to utter as many of the fashionable management buzzphrases and three letter acronyms as possible in a naked attempt to stab each other in the back as they tried to bull**** their way to the top climbing on the backs of as many of their co-workers as possible......

I once stupidly sat through a module entitled "planning for planning" ..... to get a frosty reception when I enquired at the end (of what I could only imagine to be an extended demonstration of how to chase your tail and leave a neat paper trail behind) if Id missed the "planning for planning for planning" module...

Honestly...life is too short, start looking for alternatives....they'll eventually kill education with cover your ass style admin, red tape and excessive hours all the while not dealing with real problems like class sizes, the lack of responsibilities to go hand in hand with the rights on the parents and students side, the lack of any real authority, the fear and paralysis caused by the increasingly litigious society we live in etc etc never mind looking at payment rates and what its purchasing power is etc...the pendulum has swung too far in one direction imo

My advice, ignore the box set and set up a business on the side with a view to enlarging it....most teachers (at least the ones I used to work with) undervalue themselves (possibly due to being attacked constantly) and are more than capable of being successful in other arenas...leave it to the next generation who will know no different or will have no choice but to work in education system which places less and less value on the educator to the detriment of all.....maybe at that stage when it starts to stink bad enough they'll do it right...but probably not.

coillsaille

Just to let folks know in case anybody didn't spot it that the ASTI have issued further clarification on CBAs for English teachers. It's on the website.

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Guards showed more balls. Government caved into a mutiny. Withdrawing labour for a day won't do it for us but a few weeks would but no balls Asti won't ever do this .

You're comparing apples with oranges.

There would have been anarchy if most gardaí had not turned up for work even for only one day (The leaders of the Garda staff associations said it was up to each of their members to decide whether or not to turn up on the day of the threatened action. Therefore, it wasn't a de jure strike).

Closure of schools for days or weeks would not have led to anarchy but would have compromised pupils' academic prospects. ASTI members were not willing to continue with industrial action that would have kept schools closed for weeks (Management of schools which had not secured alternative cover for S&S had no choice - regardless of what the JMB said) because such a scenario would have been dangerous to their pupils' academic prospects - just like a planned 5-day strike by junior doctors in England was suspended because it would have endangered the welfare of patients. Therefore, it's not a question of "balls".

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

Management of schools which had not secured alternative cover for S&S had no choice - regardless of what the JMB said.

The management of those schools had not secured alternative cover because of what the JMB said.

BoatMad

I cant see how this battle will be won, the Gov would allow ASTI schools to shut for extended periods , simply to ensure that LRA is not broken.

judeboy101

BoatMad wrote: »

I cant see how this battle will be won, the Gov would allow ASTI schools to shut for extended periods , simply to ensure that LRA is not broken.

All Asti teachers to pull out off sec orals, practicals and written exams and invigilation. That made them pay attention last time.

BoatMad

judeboy101 wrote: »

All Asti teachers to pull out off sec orals, practicals and written exams and invigilation. That made them pay attention last time.

I would wager that would do enormous damage to the reputation of teachers and would enable the Gov to undertake harsh crackdowns.

Teachers simply havent the tools to force the Gov to act , because unlike shutting power stations, leveraging children is simply not acceptable to the public.

As long as the TUI and other teaching unions remain in the LRA, it will be impossible for ASTI to achieve anything that is materially different , ASTI could obfuscate for enough time to allow the successor of LRA to appear and get back " in" that way . But to win in an industrial action you have to have demonstrable leverage , and ASTI does not have that , I'm afraid ( nor do its members want it )

judeboy101

BoatMad wrote: »

I would wager that would do enormous damage to the reputation of teachers and would enable the Gov to undertake harsh crackdowns.

Teachers simply havent the tools to force the Gov to act , because unlike shutting power stations, leveraging children is simply not acceptable to the public.

As long as the TUI and other teaching unions remain in the LRA, it will be impossible for ASTI to achieve anything that is materially different , ASTI could obfuscate for enough time to allow the successor of LRA to appear and get back " in" that way . But to win in an industrial action you have to have demonstrable leverage , and ASTI does not have that , I'm afraid ( nor do its members want it )

Sec contracts have nothing to do with teachers contracts so gov couldn't touch a hair on our heads. The mere threat of that back in '01 was enough to bring dept to the table. Its the one thing we have that's guaranteed to put max pressure with zero blowback to our t&c's. As for reputation? Remind me again how the guards reputation has suffered after they threatened the security of the state?

BoatMad

judeboy101 wrote: »

Sec contracts have nothing to do with teachers contracts so gov couldn't touch a hair on our heads. The mere threat of that back in '01 was enough to bring dept to the table. Its the one thing we have that's guaranteed to put max pressure with zero blowback to our t&c's. As for reputation? Remind me again how the guards reputation has suffered after they threatened the security of the state?

I think the mood in the country is very different, this economy could be heading for a cliff face of Brexit and Trumpnomics , The Gov simply cannot afford to let LRA fail as to do so would open the PS floodgates.

I suspect the Gov would blame the teachers as would ordinary voters and parents and this might enable very draconian legislation.

IN my view extended militant industrial action could destroy teachers and intimately ASTI

The guards was and is a unique case of action by the one group that could cause anarchy and chaos. Short of declaring marshall law, the Gov had little option but to negotiate, teachers are nowhere in the same ballpark

2011abc

If we threatened state exams at short notice we'd get whatever we wanted .But of course that would never happen as we're NOT 'militant' .The Independent pensions fiasco this week while a little ironic should be a salutory warning to people of the consequences of having ANTI'socialists' in power .

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

You're comparing apples with oranges.

There would have been anarchy if most gardaí had not turned up for work even for only one day (The leaders of the Garda staff associations said it was up to each of their members to decide whether or not to turn up on the day of the threatened action. Therefore, it wasn't a de jure strike).

Closure of schools for days or weeks would not have led to anarchy but would have compromised pupils' academic prospects. ASTI members were not willing to continue with industrial action that would have kept schools closed for weeks (Management of schools which had not secured alternative cover for S&S had no choice - regardless of what the JMB said) because such a scenario would have been dangerous to their pupils' academic prospects - just like a planned 5-day strike by junior doctors in England was suspended because it would have endangered the welfare of patients. Therefore, it's not a question of "balls".

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Academic prospects indeed. Everything we have seen in schools last few years has damaged academic prospects. A few weeks strike could have been made up in June easily. Anyway your type will always dig out an excuse of "what about the children" as the job goes down the tubes into bull**** form filling and poor pay. I fear the quality of teacher this system will turn out and not buying your stiff upper lip approach.
Btw it was R. Quinn who said back in 2002 that we had no balls. Hmm I wonder what lessons he learned about us then ?!

man_no_plan

coillsaille wrote: »

Just to let folks know in case anybody didn't spot it that the ASTI have issued further clarification on CBAs for English teachers. It's on the website.

Its there in black and white

The ASTI Junior Cycle Directive prohibits ASTI members from engaging in CBAs based on policy adopted at Convention 2016 wherein ASTI members are not to assess their students for school certification – the Junior Cycle Profile of Achievement.

Yet any ASTI teacher I talk to says they're against assessing for state certification. What gives?

keoclassic

judeboy101 wrote: »

Sec contracts have nothing to do with teachers contracts so gov couldn't touch a hair on our heads. The mere threat of that back in '01 was enough to bring dept to the table. Its the one thing we have that's guaranteed to put max pressure with zero blowback to our t&c's. As for reputation? Remind me again how the guards reputation has suffered after they threatened the security of the state?

Why in the name of God would an asti member jeopardise their sec contract!! Only for them to be replaced by a tui member and then end up losing even More money. That wouldnt sit well with me at all.....I never had a gripe with the sec over conditions offered, so why would I take up the fight with them instead of the dept?

MrJones1973

BoatMad wrote: »

I think the mood in the country is very different, this economy could be heading for a cliff face of Brexit and Trumpnomics , The Gov simply cannot afford to let LRA fail as to do so would open the PS floodgates.

I suspect the Gov would blame the teachers as would ordinary voters and parents and this might enable very draconian legislation.

IN my view extended militant industrial action could destroy teachers and intimately ASTI

The guards was and is a unique case of action by the one group that could cause anarchy and chaos. Short of declaring marshall law, the Gov had little option but to negotiate, teachers are nowhere in the same ballpark

Destroy? How pray tell? The other few strike days approach is a real winner?!
As for the Guards-they mutinied. State Gave in. Gov should change law and remove that tool or at least limit it.
FEMPI is as draconian as it comes. If you voted FG,FF or Labour-you effectively approved of FEMPI. If you continue to do so now in a recovery period you need head examined. Even Big brother would be amused at a government that simultaneously uses FEMPI and promises tax cuts.

political analyst

man_no_plan wrote: »

Its there in black and white

The ASTI Junior Cycle Directive prohibits ASTI members from engaging in CBAs based on policy adopted at Convention 2016 wherein ASTI members are not to assess their students for school certification – the Junior Cycle Profile of Achievement.

Yet any ASTI teacher I talk to says they're against assessing for state certification. What gives?

Historically, the ASTI opposes involvement of teachers in the assessment of their pupils for State certification. However the profile of achievement is not part of the State exams.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

The management of those schools had not secured alternative cover because of what the JMB said.

What evidence do you have to corroborate that?

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Academic prospects indeed. Everything we have seen in schools last few years has damaged academic prospects. A few weeks strike could have been made up in June easily. Anyway your type will always dig out an excuse of "what about the children" as the job goes down the tubes into bull**** form filling and poor pay. I fear the quality of teacher this system will turn out and not buying your stiff upper lip approach.
Btw it was R. Quinn who said back in 2002 that we had no balls. Hmm I wonder what lessons he learned about us then ?!

That's not an option because JC and LC exams take up most of June.

Students need to have finished their courses at least a few weeks before the first day of exams so that they'll have enough time to revise. They're under enough stress as it is and people in that age group generally find stressful situation more difficult to handle than older adults.

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

ASTI members have a simple choice

Go Into LR or go outside LR in a serious way.
People have mentioned a middle ground. I would be open to that .

Leadership need to spell out the strategy if we reject this deal.
Prepare for this game plan by Government. It generally works.
Redundancy will rear its head
More Cut backs to salary
Ward report denied to New entrants
No pay increase

The number of teachers who were "over-quota" due to the increase in class sizes and who were threatened with redundancy before HRA has probably been by increases in numbers of pupils within the pupil-teacher ratio, redeployment, retirements etc.


A new pay deal has been mooted but dont expect this to deal with

Middle Mgt
Or bridge Gap further on new entrants

Surely, duty of care towards pupils is the responsibility of all teachers, not just principals and deputy and assistant principals.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

That's not an option because JC and LC exams take up most of June.

Students need to have finished their courses at least a few weeks before the first day of exams so that they'll have enough time to revise. They're under enough stress as it is and people in that age group generally find stressful situation more difficult to handle than older adults.

You are clueless on this and not a teacher. Easily moved . Again a "What about the children argument" that ignores the **** condition of the way we fund any service for kids.
And enough pop psychology. There is a whole industry out there milking parents about childhood stress etc. A whole industry of labels,exemptions etc

Meanwhile your beloved Government wont even properly fund Guidance counselors /end inequality -but hey a shiny new leaflet is on route to schools or they will send Bressie on a tour

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You are clueless on this and not a teacher. Easily moved . Again a "What about the children argument" that ignores the **** condition of the way we fund any service for kids.
And enough pop psychology. There is a whole industry out there milking parents about childhood stress etc. A whole industry of labels,exemptions etc

You're denying that pupils are stressed out?!

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Meanwhile your beloved Government wont even properly fund Guidance counselors /end inequality -but hey a shiny new leaflet is on route to schools or they will send Bressie on a tour

RQ did a partial u-turn on the cut to guidance hours after a pupil attempted suicide. The school in question got some of its hours back and there is an appeals process with regard to allocation of such hours.

Surely, responsibility for pupils' welfare applies to all of the people who work in the school, not just management and guidance counsellors.

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

What evidence do you have to corroborate that?

At a JMB run conference of school managers in late October a member of the JMB exec addressed those present and said that no voluntary sector school could be expected to have contingency arrangements in place by November 7th. He cited the lack of an adequate period of notice and the ASTI's decision to not allow principals and DPs operate the CAs. He also said that it was unreasonable to expect members of BOMs who serve in a voluntary capacity to be involved in sorting this out. He added that it was the JMB's view that not having CAs in place would cause a focusing of minds by both parties in the dispute and a quicker resolution. This I was told by two people who were present and the two are unknown to each other.
However I'm sure this doesn't count as evidence in your view. I was slightly surprised you asked to be truthful. With most of the posts you regularly pick out for grilling you usually respond with evidence to the contrary. So I encourage you to find some evidence of the JMB telling school management to try and get CAs up and running by Nov 7th.
Even as we waited for the outcome of the talks, following an ASTI comunication to schools of the need to continue recruiting external supervisors, the JMB sent a letter to schools advising not to proceed with recruitment.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

At a JMB run conference of school managers in late October a member of the JMB exec addressed those present and said that no voluntary sector school could be expected to have contingency arrangements in place by November 7th. He cited the lack of an adequate period of notice and the ASTI's decision to not allow principals and DPs operate the CAs. He also said that it was unreasonable to expect members of BOMs who serve in a voluntary capacity to be involved in sorting this out. He added that it was the JMB's view that not having CAs in place would cause a focusing of minds by both parties in the dispute and a quicker resolution. This I was told by two people who were present and the two are unknown to each other.
However I'm sure this doesn't count as evidence in your view. I was slightly surprised you asked to be truthful. With most of the posts you regularly pick out for grilling you usually respond with evidence to the contrary. So I encourage you to find some evidence of the JMB telling school management to try and get CAs up and running by Nov 7th.
Even as we waited for the outcome of the talks, following an ASTI comunication to schools of the need to continue recruiting external supervisors, the JMB sent a letter to schools advising not to proceed with recruitment.

Saying that voluntary schools couldn't be expected to have arrangements in place by 7 November doesn't mean that they weren't allowed to make arrangements. The letter contained advice, not an instruction. Principals are accountable to BOMs, not the JMB.

man_no_plan

political analyst wrote: »

Historically, the ASTI opposes involvement of teachers in the assessment of their pupils for State certification. However the profile of achievement is not part of the State exams.

What's your point?