Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

Saying that voluntary schools couldn't be expected to have arrangements in place by 7 November doesn't mean that they weren't allowed to make arrangements. The letter contained advice, not an instruction. Principals are accountable to BOMs, not the JMB.

You were referring to my post in which I stated that schools didn't have arrangements in place because of what the JMB said. That is not alone my view but a fact that has been proven to me through conversations with managers of several different schools.

judeboy101

political analyst wrote: »

Saying that voluntary schools couldn't be expected to have arrangements in place by 7 November doesn't mean that they weren't allowed to make arrangements. The letter contained advice, not an instruction. Principals are accountable to BOMs, not the JMB.

I've seen jmb bulletins recently issued saying no contingency planning while ballot underway. Only 2of the 8members of a voluntary schools bom are NOT trained by the JMB, guess which two?

political analyst

man_no_plan wrote: »

What's your point?

You said that the ASTI directive prohibits assessment for school certification and that ASTI members tell you that they oppose assessment for State certification.

My point is:

Given that the school certification, which is for the profile of achievement, is separate from the Stat exams, why does the union still have a problem with the new assessment system?

political analyst

judeboy101 wrote: »

I've seen jmb bulletins recently issued saying no contingency planning while ballot underway. Only 2of the 8members of a voluntary schools bom are NOT trained by the JMB, guess which two?

Principal and deputy principal?

man_no_plan

political analyst wrote: »

You said that the ASTI directive prohibits assessment for school certification and that ASTI members tell you that they oppose assessment for State certification.

My point is:

Given that the school certification, which is for the profile of achievement, is separate from the Stat exams, why does the union still have a problem with the new assessment system?

So you're making the same point I was making?

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

Principal and deputy principal?

Neither the principal or DP are members of the BOM. The principal serves as secretary to the board but is not a member of it. The only two members who haven't been indoctrinated by the JMB are the two teachers elected to the BOM to represent the teaching staff.

man_no_plan

coillsaille wrote: »

Neither the principal or DP are members of the BOM. The principal serves as secretary to the board but is not a member of it. The only two members who haven't been indoctrinated by the JMB are the two teachers elected to the BOM to represent the teaching staff.

The function of a board of management is to manage the school. Teachers representatives, or parents for that matter, are not there to represent the views of teachers or parents.

Aufbau

That wasn't the point being made. The fact that most BOM members are trained by the JMB means that they regard it the expert body on running schools, and thus give it too much moral authority.

When I was on a board some years so, the JMB booklet was presented to us as 'The Bible'. Anything from the ASTI - 'we won't deal with that here'. The principal (though not a member of the board) and the chair ran the board between them, as they saw fit.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

You were referring to my post in which I stated that schools didn't have arrangements in place because of what the JMB said. That is not alone my view but a fact that has been proven to me through conversations with managers of several different schools.

They weren't forced not to have arrangements - they were advised not to. There is a difference.

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

They weren't forced not to have arrangements - they were advised not to. There is a difference.

Once again, I can just repeat what I've already said. I stated in the original post you quoted that schools did not organise contingency arrangements because of what the JMB said. I did not state that the JMB forced them not to.

coillsaille

man_no_plan wrote: »

The function of a board of management is to manage the school. Teachers representatives, or parents for that matter, are not there to represent the views of teachers or parents.

That is true. However, what does it have to do with the issue being discussed when I posted, which was the degree of influence the JMB have over BOMs?

P.S. The two teachers are on the board to play their part in the management of the schools while giving consideration to how any decision might affect the teaching staff. I see that as representing the staff, if you don't then please explain.

seavill

Many teachers will have attended the JMB BOM training days with the other board members

TheDriver

Remember theres also ETBI and ACCS which are separate bodies to JMB

Sir123

I think ASTI members need to stand strong. I think a heavy work-to-rule of some sorts may be more effective in the new year if, and hopefully members reject this ridiculous "so called" deal that has been swashed around and regurgitated to us. How patronising! I am reading it once again thinking what a waste of time those three weeks were. I know we look at our leadership and think they have made bad decisions. Nobody is perfect but leaders should lead. As they are the only teachers union standing up for equality, we must agree with CEC and reject this monstrosity. Stand strong fellow members. Good things come to those who wait!

MrJones1973

Sir123 wrote: »

I think ASTI members need to stand strong. I think a heavy work-to-rule of some sorts may be more effective in the new year if, and hopefully members reject this ridiculous "so called" deal that has been swashed around and regurgitated to us. How patronising! I am reading it once again thinking what a waste of time those three weeks were. I know we look at our leadership and think they have made bad decisions. Nobody is perfect but leaders should lead. As they are the only teachers union standing up for equality, we must agree with CEC and reject this monstrosity. Stand strong fellow members. Good things come to those who wait!

ASTI leadership (which is almost an oxymoron) needs to have a clear plan post rejection. Ie this is what we propose if this is rejected.
This proposal would want to circulate in time. Failing this it will be a yes vote by 60-40℅

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

ASTI leadership (which is almost an oxymoron) needs to have a clear plan post rejection. Ie this is what we propose if this is rejected.
This proposal would want to circulate in time. Failing this it will be a yes vote by 60-40℅

Nail. On. Head.
They MUST outline what the plan is if rejected . Short medium and long term
People are wavering but can be swayed back with a clear plan outlined and of course no more CP hours is still a massive factor
The longer we go without them , some PTM move back inside school time .....people realize how good it is to have free evenings again

Icsics

Yes, we need a long term plan & a more clever one. All our strikes suit the DES. DES are keen to count hours, so should we & extra curricular should be targeted

doc_17

Icsics wrote: »

Yes, we need a long term plan & a more clever one. All our strikes suit the DES. DES are keen to count hours, so should we & extra curricular should be targeted

If you target extra curricular though, nobody that really matters though will be put out, as in those that you are in dispute with. So is it a useful instrument? Principals will have less disruption with teachers not being away, save money on buses etc., won't affect the JMB at all, department don't give a hoot, the only ones that would are the students and parents. And the Dept, JMB and principals will blame the ASTI.

SSE, Inspectorate and JC is, I think, your only battlefields of choice.

TheDriver

I agree doc except it also disrupts those teachers who find enjoyment in their involvement in those activities. Extra curr won't matter a hoot to a dispute

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

I agree doc except it also disrupts those teachers who find enjoyment in their involvement in those activities. Extra curr won't matter a hoot to a dispute

it would drive more members out imo
It is an integral part of school life for many BUT as described above would have close to zero impact dispute wise . Parents would for the most part not care especially as it's closing in on exam time .
The only ones affected would be the non academic kids who use these as their main positive outlet and the teachers who use them to get to know the kids better.
I've heard all the bleating before about lack of appreciation for them etc and the need to pull out. Whilst I agree with the sentiment it's just life. We do a lot extra that will never be acknowledged . That's why teaching is a vocation I guess
It would be nice all the same if the GAA, IRFU ,. FAI could support us a bit more publicly so the hours could be recognised as CP hours
that would be MASSIVE for many and go a long way to resolving the dispute........1 hour a week LOL .......some of us would have them done by Halloween!

MrJones1973

I have said it for a decade that I think class tutors should be a line of battle. Where they are voluntary and have no time allowance they should be withdrawn.
Same for planning of any nature
Subject co-ordinator

It's essential SC and Kieran k show the leadership and strategy they failed to show in August-Nov

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

it would drive more members out imo
It is an integral part of school life for many BUT as described above would have close to zero impact dispute wise . Parents would for the most part not care especially as it's closing in on exam time .
The only ones affected would be the non academic kids who use these as their main positive outlet and the teachers who use them to get to know the kids better.
I've heard all the bleating before about lack of appreciation for them etc and the need to pull out. Whilst I agree with the sentiment it's just life. We do a lot extra that will never be acknowledged . That's why teaching is a vocation I guess
It would be nice all the same if the GAA, IRFU ,. FAI could support us a bit more publicly so the hours could be recognised as CP hours
that would be MASSIVE for many and go a long way to resolving the dispute........1 hour a week LOL .......some of us would have them done by Halloween!

In some schools the majority are non academic
A lot of teachers love an afternoon off going to a game. A lot of kids whose attendance is **** turn up always for matches. I had better respect for sportie teachers when matches occurred after school on a Wednesday afternoon and ditto training.
I'm not taking away from Teachers who would train outside of school ,play matches on a Saturday but a certain elements just do it to escape class.
I'm probably too cynical!

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

In some schools the majority are non academic
A lot of teachers love an afternoon off going to a game. A lot of kids whose attendance is **** turn up always for matches. I had better respect for sportie teachers when matches occurred after school on a Wednesday afternoon and ditto training.
I'm not taking away from Teachers who would train outside of school ,play matches on a Saturday but a lot of teachers just do it to escape class.
I'm probably too cynical!

Have you ANY IDEA how much hassle it is going to a match ?
I've cut back a lot to save the stress of it and the hassle
Just do my classes like everyone else .......don't have to rearrange my supervision as apparently supervising kids on bus /at match over break /lunch/periods I'd normally be off doesn't count as supervision........dont have to beg and barter to get a day arranged around other sports in both schools ........don't have to leave work for classes only for it to be not given out correctly or at all......don't have to spend the next day tidying up the resulting mess..........don't have to get soaked /frozen just to "escape class"
And yes a lot of kids do only go to school for the sport. So take it away and what do they have left?

I've had to put up with digs along the lines of the above for 15 years from teachers who do a 9-4 everyday and have NO IDEA the hassle involved .
I continue to do it ,albeit in a limited capacity , as it's a great way to get to know students. Particularly the students you mentioned above.

joebloggs32

km79 wrote: »

Have you ANY IDEA how much hassle it is going to a match ?
I've cut back a lot to save the stress of it and the hassle
Just do my classes like everyone else .......don't have to rearrange my supervision as apparently supervising kids on bus /at match over break /lunch/periods I'd normally be off doesn't count as supervision........dont have to beg and barter to get a day arranged around other sports in both schools ........don't have to leave work for classes only for it to be not given out correctly or at all......don't have to spend the next day tidying up the resulting mess..........don't have to get soaked /frozen just to "escape class"
And yes a lot of kids do only go to school for the sport. So take it away and what do they have left?

I've had to put up with digs along the lines of the above for 15 years from teachers who do a 9-4 everyday and have NO IDEA the hassle involved .
I continue to do it ,albeit in a limited capacity , as it's a great way to get to know students. Particularly the students you mentioned above.

If I could thank this post more than once I would.
This is my first year in 15 not taking a team and life is so much easier. People who have NEVER done it think its a doddle, getting to swan off to games mid week. One moaner in our staff questioned supervision a few years ago too, but we told management there was no way we were going to rearrange our supervision. After all, we are supervising the kids who are with us for the entire duration of the trip.
I enjoyed doing it as you build a relationship with the kids, and hope to do it again in a few years time when my kids are older.

MrJones1973

My apologies. Obviously in some schools it's more hassle than others. But I accept your over all point. I will let my post stand as a warning to others not to be so cynical! Everything looks easy from the outside!

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

My apologies. Obviously in some schools it's more hassle than others. But I accept your over all point. I will let my post stand as a warning to others not to be so cynical! Everything looks easy from the outside!

Christmas is coming Mrwhite. A well deserved break for us all and a chance to take a step back from the stresses of our job.

amacca

km79 wrote: »

Have you ANY IDEA how much hassle it is going to a match ?
I've cut back a lot to save the stress of it and the hassle
Just do my classes like everyone else .......don't have to rearrange my supervision as apparently supervising kids on bus /at match over break /lunch/periods I'd normally be off doesn't count as supervision........dont have to beg and barter to get a day arranged around other sports in both schools ........don't have to leave work for classes only for it to be not given out correctly or at all......don't have to spend the next day tidying up the resulting mess..........don't have to get soaked /frozen just to "escape class"
And yes a lot of kids do only go to school for the sport. So take it away and what do they have left?

I've had to put up with digs along the lines of the above for 15 years from teachers who do a 9-4 everyday and have NO IDEA the hassle involved .
I continue to do it ,albeit in a limited capacity , as it's a great way to get to know students. Particularly the students you mentioned above.

I agree with this and know from past experience how right you are...but the above also illustrates to me how much gets taken for granted and perhaps how teachers putting a little more value on themselves and their time might benefit the profession as a whole...at the very least it shouldn't be more of a hassle to do extra curricular beyond putting in the actual time.

it also occurs to me that the more people are willing to do for free the less the labour/time and effort is valued, the more they get taken for granted and the more others are under pressure to do it (when they may not be able to for many reasons) I haven't met anyone in the businesses I'm in that don't charge an hourly rate for their time..because they know if they don't they just end up undercutting everyone else, putting themselves under pressure and ultimately leaving the business unviable and not worth working at.

if you are going out of your way to work harder, add value and take on extra risk and it does not appear to be valued at all and on top of that others are being pressured (in different ways) into doing it because some are willing to give it away for free then maybe its time to think about who is wrong here....the people that will let you for their benefit or you the person who puts yourself forward for what some would think of as exploitation (albeit for noble reasons)

Teachers are their own worst enemy in this dept imo.... if they collectively withdrew all the free labour then maybe as a group they would be more respected and valued..it might even get some support for getting fair play.......like another poster mentioned...seeing as the bean counters in the dept are so anxious to count hours let them cost the loss of all the free hours into their calculations

acequion

amacca wrote: »

I agree with this and know from past experience how right you are...but the above also illustrates to me how much gets taken for granted and perhaps how teachers putting a little more value on themselves and their time might benefit the profession as a whole...at the very least it shouldn't be more of a hassle to do extra curricular beyond putting in the actual time.

it also occurs to me that the more people are willing to do for free the less the labour/time and effort is valued, the more they get taken for granted and the more others are under pressure to do it (when they may not be able to for many reasons) I haven't met anyone in the businesses I'm in that don't charge an hourly rate for their time..because they know if they don't they just end up undercutting everyone else, putting themselves under pressure and ultimately leaving the business unviable and not worth working at.

if you are going out of your way to work harder, add value and take on extra risk and it does not appear to be valued at all and on top of that others are being pressured (in different ways) into doing it because some are willing to give it away for free then maybe its time to think about who is wrong here....the people that will let you for their benefit or you the person who puts yourself forward for what some would think of as exploitation (albeit for noble reasons)

Teachers are their own worst enemy in this dept imo.... if they collectively withdrew all the free labour then maybe as a group they would be more respected and valued..it might even get some support for getting fair play.......like another poster mentioned...seeing as the bean counters in the dept are so anxious to count hours let them cost the loss of all the free hours into their calculations

You're completely right. The whole thing with extra curriculars has got completely out of hand. Only 20 odd years ago few were doing extra curriculars. I did it mainly to muscle my way into a job having been abroad for years.And while doing it loved it and really gave it my all,which is how I tend to do things. But what was also lovely back then was that it was really appreciated. When I had enough of it I was able to stop without any pressure.

Now, not only is it unappreciated but teachers have huge hassles to even attend their competitions. Also, as is pointed out in the above post and my particular gripe, young teachers are either overtly or covertly being pressured into it while secretly resenting it.You probably wouldn't even get hours nowadays without being prepared to commit to something voluntary. So I do think it high time that teachers took back their time and their own value of that time.

But that said,I don't think there's any bargaining power in it. So withdrawing en masse from extra curriculars is unlikely to have any effect in the current dispute.

MrJones1973

We should arrange a boards night out sometime as I find you lot more interesting than my moronic staff room . Even my critics. Of which I am the worst. Have a good x mass

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

We should arrange a boards night out sometime as I find you lot more interesting than my moronic staff room . Even my critics. Of which I am the worst. Have a good x mass

Many happy returns