Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

coillsaille

It's nice to see a factual and balanced analysis of the Junior Cycle reform finally make it into the mainstream media.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-ireland-about-to-take-a-wrong-turn-on-education-1.2899637

feardeas

coillsaille wrote:

It's nice to see a factual and balanced analysis of the Junior Cycle reform finally make it into the mainstream media.

Don't often find myself agreeing with her. But was nodding yesterday. Until I got to the critique of the Wellness. Ideologically she would be horrified at the idea that RE might be gobbled up by it and there could be contamination from ideas like safe sex, contraception and, heaven forbid, fulfilling relationships that may not tally with the view from Rome.

However her points on English stand, I think the specification is great but the method of final assessment will cause issues down the line, no doubt about it.

political analyst

feardeas wrote: »

Don't often find myself agreeing with her. But was nodding yesterday. Until I got to the critique of the Wellness. Ideologically she would be horrified at the idea that RE might be gobbled up by it and there could be contamination from ideas like safe sex, contraception and, heaven forbid, fulfilling relationships that may not tally with the view from Rome.

However her points on English stand, I think the specification is great but the method of final assessment will cause issues down the line, no doubt about it.

Students will still be able to prepare for the LC with mock exams.

Over 90% of students who do the JC go on to do the LC. Therefore, most employers are not interested in job applicants' JC results. Therefore, the present format of the JC is redundant.

coillsaille

feardeas wrote: »

Don't often find myself agreeing with her. But was nodding yesterday. Until I got to the critique of the Wellness. Ideologically she would be horrified at the idea that RE might be gobbled up by it and there could be contamination from ideas like safe sex, contraception and, heaven forbid, fulfilling relationships that may not tally with the view from Rome.

However her points on English stand, I think the specification is great but the method of final assessment will cause issues down the line, no doubt about it.

Likewise I would not usually be of a similar opinion to her on any other issue she has written about. However I'm glad she has used her column to draw attention to the valid concerns that exist around this reform.

MrJones1973

Brenda o Brien has never written an article propagating Catholic theology on sex. The wellness program is a ton of horse manure for various reasons.
Firstly it takes 400 hours and will eat into other subjects
Secondly it pretends schools are therapy centres and teachers are therapists.
Thirdly it ignores the chronic under funding of real mental health services and the fact that economic inequality drives a lot of mental health issues
It makes pop psychology to be some sort of new religion.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

Don't often find myself agreeing with her. But was nodding yesterday. Until I got to the critique of the Wellness. Ideologically she would be horrified at the idea that RE might be gobbled up by it and there could be contamination from ideas like safe sex, contraception and, heaven forbid, fulfilling relationships that may not tally with the view from Rome.

However her points on English stand, I think the specification is great but the method of final assessment will cause issues down the line, no doubt about it.

Yeah modern Secular morality has created a real eden of kids without Fathers and wham bam thank you mam sexuality. She has never discouraged contraceptives and Orthodox liberalism is as bad as Orthodox Catholicism . Both are as intolerant as each other to criticism .

feardeas

Mr white, in fairness I would suggest you take a look at some of her articles from the Spring of 2015. Also an interview she did with Niamh Horan in the SINDO around the same time. Ms O Brien has every right to her views and has every right to write about them, for which she is handsomely paid and allowed her family to home school her children as she explained in the interview in the SINDO.

As for teachers being therapists, no one in their right mind would suggest that. However school is a place that must at least try to equip kids for life. Pretending we have no role to play is dangerous folly.

As for the comments on sexual morality, in your other post, I don't want to engage other than to say children born outside of traditional situations are not a new phenomenon. The laundries were proof enough. Now apologies to all as this is way off topic but just felt I had to address some of the points raised.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Brenda o Brien has never written an article propagating Catholic theology on sex. The wellness program is a ton of horse manure for various reasons.
Firstly it takes 400 hours and will eat into other subjects
Secondly it pretends schools are therapy centres and teachers are therapists.
Thirdly it ignores the chronic under funding of real mental health services and the fact that economic inequality drives a lot of mental health issues
It makes pop psychology to be some sort of new religion.

Pretty much agree,especially with the emboldened bit. But it's so Irish to go all out for whatever new craze because it looks great. All window dressing.

But,on the other hand, while I don't like this "wellness" eating into other subjects, if it in any way helps personal development as youngsters grow and mature,it's worth a try if done properly. But I wouldn't be holding my breath on that one.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

Mr white, in fairness I would suggest you take a look at some of her articles from the Spring of 2015. Also an interview she did with Niamh Horan in the SINDO around the same time. Ms O Brien has every right to her views and has every right to write about them, for which she is handsomely paid and allowed her family to home school her children as she explained in the interview in the SINDO.

As for teachers being therapists, no one in their right mind would suggest that. However school is a place that must at least try to equip kids for life. Pretending we have no role to play is dangerous folly.

As for the comments on sexual morality, in your other post, I don't want to engage other than to say children born outside of traditional situations are not a new phenomenon. The laundries were proof enough. Now apologies to all as this is way off topic but just felt I had to address some of the points raised.

SPHE already does a lot of this. Society having bombarded children with junk food,consumerism and wall to wall porno now wants schools to undo the damage. Ain't going to happen. I still dispute if she wrote any article saying condoms should not be used
I never said anything about kids born outside of Marriage. My point is the unbridled get the leg over moralitry, which the media promotes ,is not a great alternative to what went before. Nobody wants to encourage a return to that either

Jamfa

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

SPHE already does a lot of this. Society having bombarded children with junk food,consumerism and wall to wall porno now wants schools to undo the damage. Ain't going to happen. I still dispute if she wrote any article saying condoms should not be used
I never said anything about kids born outside of Marriage. My point is the unbridled get the leg over moralitry, which the media promotes ,is not a great alternative to what went before. Nobody wants to encourage a return to that either

Have you read the Wellbeing Guidelines? It's not a mental health programme. PE is a core part of it and CSPE too and the guidance area is very much about supporting the transition from primary to secondary. 400 hours is 6X40 min classes per week with 2 for PE, 1 for SPHE, 1/2 for CSPE & 1 for guidance or other areas of wellbeing such as healthy eating etc. The whole wellbeing area wasn't part of the original Framework so therefore came about following pressure from the unions & especially ASTI to secure the status of CSPE.

MrJones1973

Its still an incredible about of time for what is a form of social engineering (outside of PE)
I know it was always there in other subjects including RE but at least at time there was an imposed consensus (ie we all did what church told us to do.

History is losing out as is faith formation. A lot of children if not majority still want it even if the Irish Times/Labour party doesn't.

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote:

History is losing out as is faith formation. A lot of children if not majority still want it even if the Irish Times/Labour party doesn't.

Unless they have deliberately opted for a Catholic or C of I secondary school, most parents wouldn't consider faith formation part of a school's curriculum. Those schools can offer Religion as an exam subject anyway.

And as for History, it has never been compulsory. Schools are free to offer the options they want.

I would agree, however that other subjects are losing out with the whole Well-being area. 400 hours is excessive, especially when not clearly defined.

MrJones1973

Majority of kids educated in christian schools. Of course many parents have no choice.
The New testamnent pretty much covers SPHe but not without the lovely pics of teenagers eating tofu or lustfully looking at another teen thinking about condoms etc. Im being tongue in cheek.

I will take Government seriously when we have full restoration of guidance counselors and decent access to Psychologists. Until then they can literally fxxx off with well being .

Shaungoater

So thus new JC, other subject will lose out if they can only do a max of ten no?

Jamfa

Shaungoater wrote: »

So thus new JC, other subject will lose out if they can only do a max of ten no?

CSPE isn't an exam subject from 2017 which means any school currently offering 11 subjects won't be affected.

MrJones1973

What is mood in staff rooms about Ballot?

Icsics

No talk at all about ballot & more worryingly no info from head office!

coillsaille

I hope head office aren't waiting until January to put out information. A lot of clarification on these proposals is badly needed. They also need to publish their strategy post rejection.

If members think it's a simple choice between this "deal" and further lock outs/strikes with more loss of pay then it will be accepted. The longer head office spends in silence the stronger that impression will get.

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

What is mood in staff rooms about Ballot?

No mood... just trying to make it to next week. It'll have to wait till next year.

MrJones1973

Nothing will emerge from head office until January. They better pull a rabbit out of hat in terms of strategy. Otherwise I think I will just go over to the dark side and suck it up .

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Nothing will emerge from head office until January. They better pull a rabbit out of hat in terms of strategy. Otherwise I think I will just go over to the dark side and suck it up .

you won't be alone
They have to come out with a plan of action

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Nothing will emerge from head office until January. They better pull a rabbit out of hat in terms of strategy. Otherwise I think I will just go over to the dark side and suck it up .

Head office have a plan, they spent 3 weeks perfecting it with their buddies in the wrc.

MrJones1973

I know many of the key personalities involved. I never served on SC but CEC for several years. They aint buddies with WRC. But unless they chart a way forward Pat king will be having a wry smile (with the Irish Times Media Luuvies of Brian mooney/Fintan O'mahony) and thinking "I told you so"

Im prepared to give them some time to dig themselves out of the mess created in November.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I know many of the key personalities involved. I never served on SC but CEC for several years. They aint buddies with WRC. But unless they chart a way forward Pat king will be having a wry smile (with the Irish Times Media Luuvies of Brian mooney/Fintan O'mahony) and thinking "I told you so"

Im prepared to give them some time to dig themselves out of the mess created in November.

The decision to go into wrc was made weekend before the lock out. They had pushed the idea on many media outlets and they get a phone call just as SC are starting to discuss lockout on Tuesday eve. I font believe in coincidences it was pure choreography by leadership to let themselves off the hook. I'll still vote no but as far as I'm concerned they are tainted and the fact no faq has been released pre Xmas to back up no vote speaks volumes.

MrJones1973

You might have a point Jude (hey) that they walked themselves into a lock out without much planning and were looking for a way out . They called Governments bluff on s and s and lost.

There was a patent lack of strategy but I doubt very much that ASTI leadership wanted this "agreement"-do you ?
I have been highly critical of ASTI SC and Kieran C . They have one last chance at this. If they dont produce a worthwhile plan in January its over and I will walk out of ASTI before the plane crashes. Not forever-a year or 2.
I shall comment no more on this and this time I mean it.

acequion

I also know a lot of the people involved and no this is not a set up and there's no cosying up to the powers that be as there may well have been in the past. The union leadership are as against this agreement as their most militant members, maybe even more so because they must be smarting at how badly they've been treated in the "negotiations."

However I too would like something from them this side of xmas but I doubt we'll get anything. We can only hope that we won't be rushed into the ballot come January as time will be needed to clarify everything. The members have a right to know both the consequences of accepting and rejecting and there has to be time for debate and for the no campaign to gather momentum.

Regarding short,medium and long term strategy, I honestly don't think it's possible to be so clear as this whole thing is a mess and the political sands keep shifting ie with the LRA. I hope that the strategy for the foreseeable future will be work to rule,but it's impossible to plan long term and anyway maybe we shouldn't show our full hand.

If this "agreement" passes we may all forget about the union as we will be royally fcuked. Shur they're revving up now about our pensions! I'm not religious but we'll need all the mammies and grannies lighting xmas candles for a no vote in the new year.

picturehangup

I am feeling very disillusioned and effectively abandoned by the ASTI, having been a staunch member for the last 25 years. I have never missed a vote, always voted as recommended, and gave every ounce of energy with good humour to the last campaign. The silence from HO is deafening. Despite recommending a 'no vote', I believe that they secretly are hoping that we will just get fed up being balloted yet again, and vote 'yes' to what (to me) is really a paraphrased version of LR.
There was not a word about anything on their site over Christmas, money was very rapidly docked for strike days, and I am frankly disgusted with that lot in HO. Unless they have something up their sleeves that they are hiding until new year. This member needs to see a glimmer of hope, and soon, before I decide to terminate my membership.
The fact that no one has posted here in a while, though it is the festive season is a cause for alarm.
Please keep voting 'no'. I think we should also withdraw co-operation with Inspectorate from this point too.
Happy new year, everyone. Please keep the faith!

Icsics

picturehangup wrote: »

I am feeling very disillusioned and effectively abandoned by the ASTI, having been a staunch member for the last 25 years. I have never missed a vote, always voted as recommended, and gave every ounce of energy with good humour to the last campaign. The silence from HO is deafening. Despite recommending a 'no vote', I believe that they secretly are hoping that we will just get fed up being balloted yet again, and vote 'yes' to what (to me) is really a paraphrased version of LR.
There was not a word about anything on their site over Christmas, money was very rapidly docked for strike days, and I am frankly disgusted with that lot in HO. Unless they have something up their sleeves that they are hiding until new year. This member needs to see a glimmer of hope, and soon, before I decide to terminate my membership.
The fact that no one has posted here in a while, though it is the festive season is a cause for alarm.
Please keep voting 'no'. I think we should also withdraw co-operation with Inspectorate from this point too.
Happy new year, everyone. Please keep the faith!

I feel exactly the same. Thought we would have had at least an info sheet from HO before Xmas, nothing except 3 strike days deducted & that is what people will remember. Infighting is rife in HO & it's showing

picturehangup

Icsics wrote: »

I feel exactly the same. Thought we would have had at least an info sheet from HO before Xmas, nothing except 3 strike days deducted & that is what people will remember. Infighting is rife in HO & it's showing

Ah, Icsics, there is life out there! Didn't know anything about the infighting at all. We are in a bit of a bubble in our school, tbh. I reckon some want to ratchet up the strike campaign, others are probably saying vote for LR2? I can only imagine!

judeboy101

picturehangup wrote: »

Ah, Icsics, there is life out there! Didn't know anything about the infighting at all. We are in a bit of a bubble in our school, tbh. I reckon some want to ratchet up the strike campaign, others are probably saying vote for LR2? I can only imagine!

I've posted this a few times but I firmly believe that the HO has being turned by the DES. The lack of info or faq or even date for ballot is all you need to see that they want this fight over. The choreography around the SC meeting on that tues would put strictly to shame.