Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

Icsics

judeboy101 wrote: »

I've posted this a few times but I firmly believe that the HO has being turned by the DES. The lack of info or faq or even date for ballot is all you need to see that they want this fight over. The choreography around the SC meeting on that tues would put strictly to shame.

Exactly, they want it over & let's face it they'll still get the generous salaries/allowances/expenses without all the hassle. There would want to be a co-ordinated, well thought out plan for the new year, however we've never had it before so I'm not holding my breath.

judeboy101

Icsics wrote: »

Exactly, they want it over & let's face it they'll still get the generous salaries/allowances/expenses without all the hassle. There would want to be a co-ordinated, well thought out plan for the new year, however we've never had it before so I'm not holding my breath.

I'll always vote no especially to anything FG have their paw prints on, but the only plans we will be getting are lesson plans on how to make every student feel like a precious little snowflake.

picturehangup

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'll always vote no especially to anything FG have their paw prints on, but the only plans we will be getting are lesson plans on how to make every student feel like a precious little snowflake.

Amen to that. Totally agree. Everything is geared in favour of the student, at the drastic expense of the teacher. Can see this so clearly in my school. Not a word about how we are as humans. We are expected to behave in a robotic, emotionless, perfectly professional at all times, adhere to TC demands, Parental demands, etc. I have had a parent crying to me at PT meeting because her snowflake was not quite hitting the H1 target she has set herself. Her practical end of things needs a lot of work, she not going about it the correct way, not heeding my advice based on 25 years of marking with SEC, and hates to see a red mark of a pen creating alternative suggestions to a problem. Sees it as a personal insult. Snowflake is spot on.

evolving_doors

What's bargaining chip/that does he asti have left?... more strikes!

Perhaps the last card the ASTI have to play is to make it to June 2017 without cooperating fully with the new JC.

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

What's bargaining chip/that does he asti have left?... more strikes!

Perhaps the last card the ASTI have to play is to make it to June 2017 without cooperating fully with the new JC.

Agree, that and no cp hrs. If the nurses go on work to rule /strike and are not punished then we are fecked. Also Asti should launch a test case against discrimination re. Ward report or some other aspect of governments fempi actions. It worked for consultants.

SligoBrewer

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'll always vote no especially to anything FG have their paw prints on, but the only plans we will be getting are lesson plans on how to make every student feel like a precious little snowflake.

God forbid we value all of the students that enter our schools. It might be the only place of stability and comfort for some students and I would hope that you keep your right wing rhetoric out of classrooms and schools.

picturehangup wrote: »

Amen to that. Totally agree. Everything is geared in favour of the student, at the drastic expense of the teacher. Can see this so clearly in my school. Not a word about how we are as humans. We are expected to behave in a robotic, emotionless, perfectly professional at all times, adhere to TC demands, Parental demands, etc. I have had a parent crying to me at PT meeting because her snowflake was not quite hitting the H1 target she has set herself. Her practical end of things needs a lot of work, she not going about it the correct way, not heeding my advice based on 25 years of marking with SEC, and hates to see a red mark of a pen creating alternative suggestions to a problem. Sees it as a personal insult. Snowflake is spot on.

Can you not see the double standards that exist within this post?
You want the department to see each teacher as a different person and yet you trumpet this idea of students being precious snowflakes?

judeboy101

SligoBrewer wrote: »

God forbid we value all of the students that enter our schools. It might be the only place of stability and comfort for some students and I would hope that you keep your right wing rhetoric out of classrooms and schools.

Right wing rhetoric? I'm about as right wing as a chicken mcnugget, but only blind pew could fail to see the fingerprints of the pc brigade all over the new junior cycle. The fact that students no longer have the word 'fail' associated with any of their results should scare us all. I want my kids and all the future generations to be educated in a system where some people are allowed to be smarter/funnier/more athletic/ etc. Instead we will get a system where boxes are ticked and levels are reached and everyone will be told that they are amazing and unique. The reality as you and I know is very different. To paraphrase Ms patty "treating people equal when they quite obviously aren't is called communism, and I didn't tap dance all those codes for the allies, just to had it all over to johnny red".

acequion

Guys there's no infighting going on so relax will ye!!

As in everything in life timing is vital, so where was the point in anything in the run up to xmas in a very traditional, family focused profession like teaching! Do ye seriously think teachers are thinking about the union and our battles with the DES at this time of year? Or that if the union did come out with something,that it wouldn't be seized on by our enemies in the media and used to beat or ridicule us. As in the stupid old one about why aren't teachers striking now? Oh wait they're all on hols!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: And xmas or not that FG mouthpiece, the Indo is on a witch hunt against public servants in general. Spotted today's headlines while picking up some groceries earlier and the latest targets are the pensions of retired teachers!

So, though initially I would have liked something from HO before the hols,I think it's much better to get xmas out of the way and wait til January and play our cards close to our chest. There's a CEC meeting on the 14th, loads of branch meetings already organised for the week after that,so that's the time to get the no campaign up and running. And why rush into the vote? Get xmas and all its razmatazz out of the way first and then get teachers minds properly focused in the new year.

Some of ye are yer own worst enemies with yer predictions of doom and gloom. Put yer angers and energies into the no campaign for god's sake! Email head office, tell them in no uncertain terms that yer not happy, go to the branch meetings, make sure you also have school union meetings going on. Be vocal, make yer voices heard and convince yer collegues that we have no business agreeing to this rubbish deal!

What we can ultimately achieve really is a wizard's guess at this stage, but the longer we stay outside these agreements and stay working to rule, the more we chip away at a week Government's armour.

Stay strong and a happy new year to everybody!

picturehangup

SligoBrewer, You have misinterpreted my post, and in no way do I 'trumpet' the idea of students as being precious Snowflakes.
I am only referring to the ambiguity of the the nature of our work, namely, on one extreme, being expected to be perfect professionals, yet on the the other hand, we are expected to create an almost individual personal plan for each student, taking into account their natural ability, socio-economic factors, aptitude, etc. We are then expected to protect and imo mollycoddle to last degree. Tell me, who mollycoddled you to become what you are today? Imo, we are setting up these kids for disappointments, not enabling them to cope with reality, and we are teaching them that 'everything will be okay'. They will not be able to function in the real world, as things stand. We are walking into a crisis.

feardeas

See it's back up and running. I agree with the points RE there being no point in having anything prior to the break.

I believe that there should be a clear document stating the consequences of a yes or no. In the event of no there should be a clear unambiguous outlining of what happens over the rest of the academic year and whether the plan is to remain outside the new talks which will also include the pension provision. Might be nice to have a voice in those.

When that document is released there should be meetings in schools rather than branches so that it can be discussed in an open and
frank way. Then as well educated people teachers should make up their own minds and vote accordingly.

All the best for 2017.

MrJones1973

Can I ask what is position of Non ASTI during this period? In a school. Do they get increases , S and S allowances etc-if they are in a secondary school? What about community schools.
I was having an argument with my bro in law. I claimed that in Secondary schools you were treated the same as all other ASTI members. Is that correct?

What is status in mixed union schools?

joebloggs32

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Can I ask what is position of Non ASTI during this period? In a school. Do they get increases , S and S allowances etc-if they are in a secondary school? What about community schools.
I was having an argument with my bro in law. I claimed that in Secondary schools you were treated the same as all other ASTI members. Is that correct?

What is status in mixed union schools?

If its a secondary school then all are treated as if they are ASTI.
If ETB, then all as TUI regardless of wether they are in or out of the union.
In C&C sector, only the TUI teachers who declared their union membership are getting increases etc.

deiseindublin

joebloggs32 wrote: »

.....
If ETB, then all as TUI regardless of wether they are in or out of the union..

That's not the case for designated schools (that have chaplains), only TUI members that signed the form are getting the increases, non-union staff haven't gotten anything.

MrJones1973

I was talking to a CEC member last night. He would be seen as hard core (ie lets fight) but he aint optimistic and has heard little of a plan to carry on. He has connections top table.
Im not optimistic. I prefer to think its over and be pleasantly surprised if Im wrong.

MrJones1973

picturehangup wrote: »

SligoBrewer, You have misinterpreted my post, and in no way do I 'trumpet' the idea of students as being precious Snowflakes.
I am only referring to the ambiguity of the the nature of our work, namely, on one extreme, being expected to be perfect professionals, yet on the the other hand, we are expected to create an almost individual personal plan for each student, taking into account their natural ability, socio-economic factors, aptitude, etc. We are then expected to protect and imo mollycoddle to last degree. Tell me, who mollycoddled you to become what you are today? Imo, we are setting up these kids for disappointments, not enabling them to cope with reality, and we are teaching them that 'everything will be okay'. They will not be able to function in the real world, as things stand. We are walking into a crisis.

Does anybody really do this? Personal Education plans ? Really? I just did 30 exam scripts with just a mark and brief comment. They all tend to make the same mistakes and I make myself available after school if they want to go through paper.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I was talking to a CEC member last night. He would be seen as hard core (ie lets fight) but he aint optimistic and has heard little of a plan to carry on. He has connections top table.
Im not optimistic. I prefer to think its over and be pleasantly surprised if Im wrong.

I guarantee one word was mentioned to the head honchos by the DES the weekend before the lock out. P.E.N.S.I.O.N.S. Those poor fools hadn't a hope against theDES . A no vote will be a pyrrhic victory when FG push the threat of pension cuts under our noses.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

I guarantee one word was mentioned to the head honchos by the DES the weekend before the lock out. P.E.N.S.I.O.N.S. Those poor fools hadn't a hope against theDES . A no vote will be a pyrrhic victory when FG push the threat of pension cuts under our noses.

Public Expenditure Minister Paschal Donohoe has legislation on the books that would stop State workers' pensions rising when someone in the grade from which they retired gets a pay rise.

from the indo

What if it's a pay restoration and not a pay rise?

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

from the indo

What if it's a pay restoration and not a pay rise?

They'll threaten to cut link between pensions and current wage levels and link pensions to cpi. They'll also threaten to tax lump sum and increase levy as you get older.pay restoration we be linked to some of these pension reforms.

MrJones1973

All of this gives me two clear thoughts

We need a long dispute otherwise the pension element will be on table. There wasnt a clear strategy in Nov (if SC /Kieran Christie had one). ASTI needs one now. A long dispute doesnt mean all out strike but here is a plan

Withdraw from s and S in 7 weeks. No derogation for Principals
Continue non co-operation with JC.
Non-cooperation with all school planning
Withdraw from class tutor ships-where there is a time allowance just stick to doing it within that time.
Withdrawal from all school work that takes place outside classroom bar correcting
No Croke park hours

If this deal is accepted then its all over baby blue

Head table has one last throw of the dice .



Secondly-we need FG gone. I was once an FG supporter and while there is not a huge amount of difference between FG and FF -FG are at heart right wing anti public sector. I could never vote FF but they would be better.

ethical

The whole thing is a total mess.Speaking to a teacher over the break who had to emigrate in 1990 and then returned in 1995 when jobs were available this lady is now really annoyed by the way teachers are treated.
How can you tell the World that the "recession" is over yet continue with FEMPI as far as teachers wages go?(Why havent the Unions taken a court case yet?)
This teacher will never have 35 years pensionable service! (due in no small part to the mismanagement of the economy by various ministers who were more interested in lining their own pockets than on keeping an eye on running a decent honest system.)
This teacher has not got a pay rise since 2008(but has endured many cuts) due to position on salary scale and all the recessionary cuts and increments freezes........and now the wonderful Dept.are going after pensions,when is it all going to stop? (Of course there will be an election sometime in the next year or 18 months and the teaching fraternity will vote again for the present idiots and I include the two so called big parties here)
Will we ever learn?

TheDriver

I wouldn't be worried about pension threats as it will be all civil servants pensions which is a big battle. It will all cause a nightmare for all the private top up industry with AVCs etc. Schools will also be full of teachers til 65 years old. I agree FG are the problem, FF is far more cautious when it comes to teachers

picturehangup

Mr White, Agree with most of that. I think managers don't need as long as 7 weeks to set up S and S. They have more than had long enough to sort out that one. Why the heck we are still doing it, I don't know.
I would add withdrawal from WSE/SSE/Inspections to that list also. Don't know of what tangible value they serve.

MrJones1973

:DYou are all good people. Yes I have had a drink or two but you can turn to boards when you want to talk to teachers with balls (excuses to the ladies) but I still need a copy of a JC english plan . Any going?:D

BoatMad

Secondly-we need FG gone. I was once an FG supporter and while there is not a huge amount of difference between FG and FF -FG are at heart right wing anti public sector. I could never vote FF but they would be better.

I see , a party that plunged this state into two of the worst recessions in its history , you'd think " They would be better "

BoatMad

ethical wrote: »

The whole thing is a total mess.Speaking to a teacher over the break who had to emigrate in 1990 and then returned in 1995 when jobs were available this lady is now really annoyed by the way teachers are treated.
How can you tell the World that the "recession" is over yet continue with FEMPI as far as teachers wages go?(Why havent the Unions taken a court case yet?)
This teacher will never have 35 years pensionable service! (due in no small part to the mismanagement of the economy by various ministers who were more interested in lining their own pockets than on keeping an eye on running a decent honest system.)
This teacher has not got a pay rise since 2008(but has endured many cuts) due to position on salary scale and all the recessionary cuts and increments freezes........and now the wonderful Dept.are going after pensions,when is it all going to stop? (Of course there will be an election sometime in the next year or 18 months and the teaching fraternity will vote again for the present idiots and I include the two so called big parties here)
Will we ever learn?

you have a job, thats pays reasonable, long holidays and a defined benefit pension plan. Thats puts you well ahead of most ordinary workers in this country. Think carefully

SligoBrewer

BoatMad wrote: »

you have a job, thats pays reasonable, long holidays and a defined benefit pension plan. Thats puts you well ahead of most ordinary workers in this country. Think carefully

The pensions of lower paid teachers is very clearly defined. It's appalling.

BoatMad

SligoBrewer wrote: »

The pensions of lower paid teachers is very clearly defined. It's appalling.

its way better then the vast majority of private workers , who are faced with living out the twilight of their years in poverty or more likely working till they are dead. The average worker cannot build a defined contribution pension of any value , the system isn't working at all for them, its working " somewhat " for defined benefit workers, who are all in the PS these days

joebloggs32

BoatMad wrote: »

its way better then the vast majority of private workers , who are faced with living out the twilight of their years in poverty or more likely working till they are dead. The average worker cannot build a defined contribution pension of any value , the system isn't working at all for them, its working " somewhat " for defined benefit workers, who are all in the PS these days

The defined benefit pension no longer applies to those who have joined the public service since 2011. There is a new calculation based on a career average. Despite what Joe public thinks, public servants do make pension contributions, and benchmarking II discounted any pay rise in lieu of our pension. The government have been chipping away at pension T&C's since 1995.
Those on career average would need to live beyond the age of about 93 to cost the state money as a pensioner according to calculations done by the union. Considering life expectancy is currently at about 80 it looks like the state is going to clean up on this new system.

evolving_doors

a here boatman, yer off topic, please read the charter and thread title before endowing us with.... that.
Mod

MrJones1973

BoatMad wrote: »

I see , a party that plunged this state into two of the worst recessions in its history , you'd think " They would be better "

I was not very clear. I would never vote FF. I would vote SF before them or SDP if there was a viable candidate out here. But your typical teacher would probably plump for one of the two big parties. Labour are really just FG lite

And if they could see only two choices-FF or FG-I would at present pick FF -If thats what you had to choose between. Voting for Ind is political masterxxxxx