Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

MrJones1973

BoatMad wrote: »

you have a job, thats pays reasonable, long holidays and a defined benefit pension plan. Thats puts you well ahead of most ordinary workers in this country. Think carefully

As noted new teachers pensions are crap but I would say a lot of them dont think beyond the end of their noses. They will run with the stipend the Gov throws at them. A lot will.

As for the broader Issue-you are right. We should move towards a new pension deal for all Workers that guarantee them a 20k old age pension. That would mean sacrifices for all workers-public and Private. None of us can expect a holiday in France every year ,two cars,several mobile phones etc and the state to somehow conjure us up 20k a year when we retire.
I know many people struggle financially but even in my deprived school a lot of welfare kids go to lanzorote once a year.
I will get back on topic. I promise Sir.

doc_17

If the ASTI accept the "deal" then they are finished, well the leadership are. They'll have to resign en masse.

I have to laugh when I read articles about what is on offer, it merely giving back what was taken!

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

If the ASTI accept the "deal" then they are finished, well the leadership are. They'll have to resign en masse.

I have to laugh when I read articles about what is on offer, it merely giving back what was taken!

Do we even have a date for the ballot yet ?????
The vibe in our staffroom is one of resignation as expected

MrJones1973

doc_17 wrote: »

If the ASTI accept the "deal" then they are finished, well the leadership are. They'll have to resign en masse.

I have to laugh when I read articles about what is on offer, it merely giving back what was taken!

There will be no resignations. Should there be-of course. But there is no recall mechanism for Gen sec or SC.
Ive already left the Union. I cant be around for another beating. I feel like an abused spouse. I dont use those words lightly either. This was over in Nov.
I believe strongly in the ASTI. I wont go forever- a year or two. Without them things would be much worse. Lets keep that in mind. Psychologically I just got to go.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

There will be no resignations. Should there be-of course. But there is no recall mechanism for Gen sec or SC.
Ive already left the Union. I cant be around for another beating. I feel like an abused spouse. I dont use those words lightly either. This was over in Nov.
I believe strongly in the ASTI. I wont go forever- a year or two. Without them things would be much worse. Lets keep that in mind. Psychologically I just got to go.

So you didn't even wait to vote? You're so certain the no side will lose that it doesn't even occur to you that there's every chance no won't lose but we need every vote we can get. Like yours! But you couldn't even be arsed to wait a few weeks! Yet you're on here every chance you can whingeing and bitching about last November and spraying the place with negativity.

Thanks a lot! You might give it a rest now so!

MrJones1973

I have done way more for the ASTI than 90% of the members. I did legion work against previous agreements.
Served on CEC and branch level

I am certain of the defeat. I have been certain since November but decided to hang onto the little bit of hope I had left. But nothing since has stirred that little ember into a fire.
Ed Byrne and K Christie have shown poor leadership and no strategy.
I have said it for years-unless you have a long drawn out dispute then all we will be is a brake on erosion.
The 7 days would have been better to stick to than the mess in Nov
I know several SC members who were critical of the lack of a grand strategy. They were a voice crying in the wilderness.

You can accuse me of spraying negativity or whatever you like. I will be back in the ASTI sometime again but I wont be around for a resounding beating. This will pass 60-40
Its for the moderators to decide whether I can contribute here or not. I dont plan to. I prefer to look away at this stage.

deiseindublin

In fairness, it's pretty pointless leaving without a voice before the vote. Afterwards, fair enough but doesn't make any sense to leave and hopefully others will do the same.

MrJones1973

My voice has been one of the loudest last ten years. Now Im off to a home for abused trade unionists.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

My voice has been one of the loudest last ten years. Now Im off to a home for abused trade unionists.

And now you decide to let us down!!

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

And now you decide to let us down!!

It's the Asti who have left me down. I commend all you who are still committed. I really do. I shall join the fray again but for the moment adieu.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

It's the Asti who have left me down. I commend all you who are still committed. I really do. I shall join the fray again but for the moment adieu.

As I've said before this is quite clearly personal. Which is your own business, but do you not realise how tiresome your constant whingeing on this thread is?

Also, some pages back on this thread or another, some other poster did caution you on the contagious effect of your negativity. For the sake of the many of us who wouldn't dream of giving into the demands of this hostile and bullying FG Government and who are committed to fighting on,will you please,please ease up on the negativity and on your personal issues with the union.Such contributions are no help to anybody going forward.

MrJones1973

Stop moderating aqueion. I'm sure you are an excellent teacher etc but you can block me if you want. That way I can't infect you with my realism.
You are bit of a control freak though. Is classroom control not enough? Must you control us all here !!
It's ground hog day for the Asti. I'm a handy lighting rod for posters anger over November.
But why expect different results when you keep doing the same thing ? A few days strike. Then cave in ?
I do think Asti achieved a lot on the JC but little else. Without the asti the department would ride us bareback
Best of luck in ballot.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Stop moderating aqueion. I'm sure you are an excellent teacher etc but you can block me if you want. That way I can't infect you with my realism.
You are bit of a control freak though. Is classroom control not enough? Must you control us all here !!
It's ground hog day for the Asti. I'm a handy lighting rod for posters anger over November.
But why expect different results when you keep doing the same thing ? A few days strike. Then cave in ?
I do think Asti achieved a lot on the JC but little else. Without the asti the department would ride us bareback
Best of luck in ballot.

You could well be right that I'm a bit of a control freak. You'll find that a lot of committed, enthusiastic people are to varying extents. Some people may even say obsessive, but I'd prefer to be this way than sleep walking my way through life.

However, who the hell is "all us here"? My issue is with you and your obsessiveness over last November and what the union did and didn't do [in your opinion] In fact I'd say the other contributors have given up reading this argument and I don't blame them one bit, so this is my last post on the matter.

No,I don't want to block you because I agree with you on many things but I may have to. It's a pity that you can't see how utterly, tiresomely repetitive you are on the events or non events of last November and that your constant repetition is completely nonconstructive because last November is past.It's over and done.End of. And also teachers won't buy into all out strike, whatever the merits, so no point harping on there either.

And I'm disappointed that you decided to walk away before even casting your vote.

We're both hogging this thread, so let's both stop. And re the control freak, it does take one to know one, you know! But look, my posts and comments are not made in bad spirit. Best of luck to you!

MrJones1973

Best of luck aqueion. I don't regard teaching as a bad job at present. We are a long way from the UK model. The Asti is crucial to its future here in Ireland. My decision is very personal. I just need to concentrate on other issues. When the dust has settled I will reveal to you who I am and explain the entire story. I promise to return. If ballot rejected I will personally but each of you a drink . Promise
My apologies if I was overtly negative.

Benicetomonty

Bit of encouragement today with news that ASTI numbers have increased during last few months, contradicting many an Irish Times implication. Ed Byrne also makes it known that both he and the Gen Sec were individually contacted and threatened by the dept with further sanctions.

The degree to which asti members are being bullied is a reason to vote no in my view. I think our options in the event of a rejection might be limited but it's become a matter of principle at this point imo.

feardeas

The nuacht detailing the consequences has been published and is online. It looks comprehensive although I'm not sure there's mention of what continued action would be. Open to correction.

Anyway I'm saying no more on this issue. Not too long until we will know.

km79

feardeas wrote: »

The nuacht detailing the consequences has been published and is online. It looks comprehensive although I'm not sure there's mention of what continued action would be. Open to correction.

Anyway I'm saying no more on this issue. Not too long until we will know.

Nowhere in that nuscht does it give any kind of idea of what the POA is if we reject !
Yeah all the financial penalties are laid out BUT what's is the industrial action plan ? is there one ?
Anyway the way the nuacht is laid out will ensure it will be accepted

MrJones1973

CEC will no doubt clarify that. Industrial action. Its been a year of unpredictable results. Who foresaw President Trump?Anything could happen. What exactly are these management teams?? They speak of of?

BoatMad

For the sake of the many of us who wouldn't dream of giving into the demands of this hostile and bullying FG Government

Hostile and bullying , you mean a department of education that has virtually torn up every plan in the face of teacher intransigence .

I said it before here, this is not a battle ASTI can win , its the wrong fight

MrJones1973

BoatMad wrote: »

Hostile and bullying , you mean a department of education that has virtually torn up every plan in the face of teacher intransigence .

I said it before here, this is not a battle ASTI can win , its the wrong fight

Totally unsubstantiated argument. Any chance you might provide one fact ? I hope your teachers didn't accept works like this ?!

Benicetomonty

BoatMad wrote: »

Hostile and bullying , you mean a department of education that has virtually torn up every plan in the face of teacher intransigence .

I said it before here, this is not a battle ASTI can win , its the wrong fight

Not doing the Junior Cert would represent a victory for me. A frozen increment would be a small price to pay.

BoatMad

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Not doing the Junior Cert would represent a victory for me. A frozen increment would be a small price to pay.

not particularly useful , in essence you have a form of work to rule being used to prevent policy adoption. Its one thing to have workers agitate to improve their pay and conditions , its another when they attempt to redefine the system based on ideological perspectives. Policy & implementation should be decided by " merit groups" , once decided upon, the onus is on the workers to implement that policy, after all they are paid to do that.

However in many aspects of the state sector , there is a startling inability to effect change, mostly because many of its systems are beholding to very strong vested interests who have become more interested in their own welfare to the exclusion of everything else. Hence the current obsession in the ASTI with " winning " .

Which is why we have a so much of the state services mired in the mud and seemingly unable to deliver effective services .

acequion

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Not doing the Junior Cert would represent a victory for me. A frozen increment would be a small price to pay.

Plus not having to go back to those utterly soul destroying CP hours!

amacca

BoatMad wrote: »

However in many aspects of the state sector , there is a startling inability to effect change, mostly because many of its systems are beholding to very strong vested interests who have become more interested in their own welfare to the exclusion of everything else. Hence the current obsession in the ASTI with " winning " .

Which is why we have a so much of the state services mired in the mud and seemingly unable to deliver effective services .

hmmm....Id say there is more of an obsession with winning (or crushing any opposition) on the Govt side

To me it seems that teachers are looking for fair play, its hard to agree to reforms when its all take take take and no give........the reforms always seem to end up with worsening conditions of work and poorer renumeration with questionable improvements in the standard of education that these so called reforms will bring .... with no acknowledgement that they might not actually be a good thing......or that they might in fact be a tarted up versions of things that happened over the last 20 years in places like the UK and aren't really all that great for the students never mind the teachers

Now you wouldn't know it from listening to the rabble rousing media in this country but it appears as if Irish teachers already work many more contact hours than the teachers in the ideal systems they are compared to, have much higher teacher student ratios and have had many other terms and conditions reduced (savaged in some cases) not to mention looking over their shoulder in case some clipboard wielding jobsworth comes in to inspect the cover your ass paper trail/justify their existence

The best kind of reform might be to provide proper resources, treat the actual educated professional with some respect (in terms of resources and work environment) instead of constantly trying to bully them into submission and reduce their terms and conditions for a stressful and demanding job which requires postgrad qualifications (usually two or more) for nearly every candidate now and has also probably had to put up with way less than full hours for an average of 5 years or more just to get their foot in the door to no more than the weekly incomings of someone thats been working in the local spar for a couple of year...all the while chipping away at the value of the pensions (to where in some cases it looks like you might end up paying more in than the value of what you get out) etc etc

I hope they continue to resist the "reforms"

Benicetomonty

BoatMad wrote: »

not particularly useful , in essence you have a form of work to rule being used to prevent policy adoption. Its one thing to have workers agitate to improve their pay and conditions , its another when they attempt to redefine the system based on ideological perspectives. Policy & implementation should be decided by " merit groups" , once decided upon, the onus is on the workers to implement that policy, after all they are paid to do that.

However in many aspects of the state sector , there is a startling inability to effect change, mostly because many of its systems are beholding to very strong vested interests who have become more interested in their own welfare to the exclusion of everything else. Hence the current obsession in the ASTI with " winning " .

Which is why we have a so much of the state services mired in the mud and seemingly unable to deliver effective services .

'Idealogical perspectives' aside, since the new JC will increase my workload, it does represent a fairly obvious attack on my conditions. And this union's job is to protect my conditions. That alone is reason enough. If the ballot is rejected, more than half of students doing the JC will supposedly be docked 10pc of their exam.The Times and Indo can mudsling all they like, but it's Bruton who'll have to face the backlash, not the ASTI. Id love to see Fianna Fail continue to support him in that scenario.

acequion

amacca wrote: »

hmmm....Id say there is more of an obsession with winning (or crushing any opposition) on the Govt side

To me it seems that teachers are looking for fair play, its hard to agree to reforms when its all take take take and no give........the reforms always seem to end up with worsening conditions of work and poorer renumeration with questionable improvements in the standard of education that these so called reforms will bring .... with no acknowledgement that they might not actually be a good thing......or that they might in fact be a tarted up versions of things that happened over the last 20 years in places like the UK and aren't really all that great for the students never mind the teachers

Now you wouldn't know it from listening to the rabble rousing media in this country but it appears as if Irish teachers already work many more contact hours than the teachers in the ideal systems they are compared to, have much higher teacher student ratios and have had many other terms and conditions reduced (savaged in some cases) not to mention looking over their shoulder in case some clipboard wielding jobsworth comes in to inspect the cover your ass paper trail/justify their existence

The best kind of reform might be to provide proper resources, treat the actual educated professional with some respect (in terms of resources and work environment) instead of constantly trying to bully them into submission and reduce their terms and conditions for a stressful and demanding job which requires postgrad qualifications (usually two or more) for nearly every candidate now and has also probably had to put up with way less than full hours for an average of 5 years or more just to get their foot in the door to no more than the weekly incomings of someone thats been working in the local spar for a couple of year...all the while chipping away at the value of the pensions (to where in some cases it looks like you might end up paying more in than the value of what you get out) etc etc

I hope they continue to resist the "reforms"

Thanks amacca. I certainly hope so too.

evolving_doors

OK folks this thread is getting sidetracked by folk who don't abide by charter AND thread warning.
Apples vs. Oranges has derailed enough posts in the past from stumblers-in.

Boatmad please don't post in this thread unti'll you agree to read and abide by the above.

Off topic Posts will be deleted..or moved to separate thread.

Mod

Update: Open Again/ Play nice
Split thread here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057693143
Please do not comment on this warning on thread and comment on modding (it's all in the charter etc)

km79

Any news from CEC

MrJones1973

Nothing except a promise to strike if redundancies happen. No leadership from Ed or Kieran . I really hope you guys prove me wrong . I really do. Otherwise it's time to do a few grinds and be cynical. Take as many stress days as you need and just get your act together for inspectors. It will be a **** job within ten years but I will be retired by then

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Nothing except a promise to strike if redundancies happen. No leadership from Ed or Kieran . I really hope you guys prove me wrong . I really do. Otherwise it's time to do a few grinds and be cynical

Grinds only work if there's a risk of failing. No fails now in new junior cert, to be followed by no fails in leaving cert no doubt. 'Everyone gets a ribbon day' in the Irish secondary school crèche. Give it a few years and we will have 'safe spaces' in the schools.