Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

Icsics

It won't be ABC marking, it's Distinction, Upper Merit, Merit, Achieved, Partially Achieved...nice & vague!

maude6868

Our shop steward was told to inform us by the ASTI that should we vote no the Dept have promised further penalties as yet unknown, that seemed to cement a yes vote from many. I would say it's probably half and half at the moment with more turning to a yes in our place.

amacca

km79 wrote: »

Thanks
And now I have it I will do my best to spread it when I'm in contact with colleagues BUT my point remains
Not everyone is on here looking for the info. Or on Facebook looking. That's the majority of our members. They need to be spoonfed the info direct from the unions site or nuacht

I agree with this......While imo there are many more reasons to vote no rather than yes (especially if a person thinks long term) if staffrooms are like they were it takes a lot to get out ahead of the fear mongering/misinformation/bullying and blustering of Govt spokespeople and aforementioned lackeys + the usual blowhards....(see the further penalties as yet unknown from above---thats not hardball thats more bullying)

The likes of those ten points acequnion mentioned should be on a big glossy poster pinned to inside of every staffroom door as suggested or possibly sent directly to every member...it can't be repeated enough for some people...I swear some people just vote for an easy life not realising they are making it much harder (unsustainably so) in the long term......

Hope its not cheeky to quote that post below

acequion wrote: »

Speeches of courage and fear as CEC decides strategy (14/01/2017)

There's no doubt that the campaign to terrorise and bully ASTI members is having an effect. We heard some very defeatist, fatalistic speeches yesterday. However, these were more than matched by those of us urging members to stay strong and not be bullied into accepting yet another bad deal.

In terms of strategy following rejection of the 'deal', there seemed to be a consensus that industrial action should take the form of a work to rule, that passive resistance (such as non-cooperation with the Croke Park hours and Junior Cycle) had proven more effective than strike action.

CEC also recognised that if any member were threatened with compulsory redundancy as a result of the withdrawal of the Redeployment Scheme, the ASTI would need to be able to respond by taking industrial action. A motion enabling us to ballot for such industrial action was supported by a significant majority of CEC members (not counted).

Standing Committee also brought forward motions it had already passed so that, following rejection, the following industrial action could be maintained/taken:
* No Croke Park hours
* No cooperation with Junior Cycle
* Refusal to cooperate with 'initiatives' (e.g. School Self-Evaluation, Literacy & Numeracy paperwork)
* Ballot of ASTI principals not to identify any member for redeployment
* Ballot of members to enable protective industrial action to be taken in the event of a member being threatened with compulsory redundancy as a result of the withdrawal of the Redeployment Scheme (as mentioned above)
* Industrial action for LPTs

There is still a mandate for withdrawal from S&S. However, it was emphasised that any action must avoid a lockout situation like we saw on 7th November 2016. It was also noted that Standing Committee had voted against all-out strike.

Finally, members also indicated that Standing Committee could develop the strategy further at its meetings next week.

10 reasons to vote No to the ASTI 'Outcome of talks' proposals from the DES

1. This is not a 'final' offer. Further negotiation is possible. A 'final' offer only becomes 'final' if it's accepted.

2. It is open to the ASTI to join the Lansdowne Road Agreement (LRA) at any time. Now is not that time. We are at a crucial stage in a number of campaigns — which we could win if we remain outside LRA for now. (Inside LRA, we cannot even work to rule.)

3. If we hold the line on Junior Cycle till the end of April, the second 'window' for completing the Classroom Based Assessments and Assessment Task will have passed. The Junior Cycle will become a dead letter as regards the classroom-based assessments.

4. The longer we hold out on not doing the Croke Park hours, the more we gain the confidence that we can sustain such industrial action. We also prove beyond doubt that schools can function long term without such unpaid hours.

5. The Junior Cycle and Croke Park hours are two trump cards we hold and should hold on to. While some issues are fundamental, aspects of the Junior Cycle and the Croke Park hours could be used as leverage in negotiations in relation to equal pay for equal work.

6. We retain the power to take industrial action on behalf of Lesser Paid Teachers (LPTs). Itis only because of the threat of industrial action by the ASTI that any money has beenoffered to LPTs to date. The live threat of further industrial action hanging over theGovernment will keep the pressure on for equal pay for equal work — especially in the run up to the talks, expected in April, on a successor to LRA.

7. Even though we have not been paid for Supervision & Substitution to date, we havedone and continue to do the hours. These hours are not lost. We can claim payment for them at a later date under improved proposals that would include LRA acceptance.

8. The current freeze on increments and other FEMPI penalties, and the withdrawal of the Ward Report (2-year CID), can be lifted at a later date under improved proposals that would include LRA acceptance. (This is what happened with the GRA deal.)

9. We have shown great principled solidarity and unity within the ASTI up to now in spite of an unprecedented campaign of bullying and intimidation by the Government and its
lackeys in the media. It is crucial that we stay united now and face them down.

10. Further lockouts and all-out strike have been ruled out by Standing Committee. While it is important to retain the power to take strike action, work-to-rule industrial action has proven very effective to date and is likely to be the main focus of action post rejection.

feardeas

Reading those points it looks like there's an acceptance from that group that LRA will have to be entered. I assume this is also a tacit acceptance that CP hours will be part of that given that they are integral to LRA. That is a far cry from when it was considered the devil's buttermilk. The points are vague and offer little or nothing in terms of strategy. I would love to know what proposals would be deemed acceptable in order to allow a recommendation from that group to accept. Particularly given that now they seem to think the eventual destination will be LRA.

I will vote to accept and here are some of the reasons.

Increments unfrozen.
€2500 gross by September. ( s and s and the 1000)
Ward report provisions re-established.(CID after two years)
Our schools get a share of the posts in September.(beginning of s path to promotion)
Our students are assessed in an equal manner.
A beginning has been made on pay restoration.
We will be at the table for the talks on the successor to LRA and this means that we will have a voice.
Access to redeployment for over quota teachers.
Soon ten CP hours can be done outside the whole staff.

These imo are positives. I hear many colleagues who agree. I think in my school it will pass. Nationally I have no idea.

If it is rejected fair enough. Then I think the dept have no option but to offer the terms to individual teachers that may want to it in. Also I think that the TUI would have to become established in voluntary schools.

I know this is not the dominant view here. I understand that people have sincerely held views and respect that.

Can I say finally that the information in Nuacht is comprehensive and for that CEC should be commended.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

Reading those points it looks like there's an acceptance from that group that LRA will have to be entered. I assume this is also a tacit acceptance that CP hours will be part of that given that they are integral to LRA. That is a far cry from when it was considered the devil's buttermilk. The points are vague and offer little or nothing in terms of strategy. I would love to know what proposals would be deemed acceptable in order to allow a recommendation from that group to accept. Particularly given that now they seem to think the eventual destination will be LRA.

I will vote to accept and here are some of the reasons.

Increments unfrozen.
€2500 gross by September. ( s and s and the 1000)
Ward report provisions re-established.(CID after two years)
Our schools get a share of the posts in September.(beginning of s path to promotion)
Our students are assessed in an equal manner.
A beginning has been made on pay restoration.
We will be at the table for the talks on the successor to LRA and this means that we will have a voice.
Access to redeployment for over quota teachers.
Soon ten CP hours can be done outside the whole staff.

These imo are positives. I hear many colleagues who agree. I think in my school it will pass. Nationally I have no idea.

If it is rejected fair enough. Then I think the dept have no option but to offer the terms to individual teachers that may want to it in. Also I think that the TUI would have to become established in voluntary schools.

I know this is not the dominant view here. I understand that people have sincerely held views and respect that.

Can I say finally that the information in Nuacht is comprehensive and for that CEC should be commended.

To be fair to you I did a back of envelope calculation and Im due about 5k gross if this passes. Of course half of that is my increment unfreezes. Money they owe me anyway the bastards
But be warned Feadras-your hope for management posts is just a hope. They are NOT restoring old style posts and you will find that in the Nuacht . They are remodeling the whole thing. Leadership teams and nobody knows what that means,
As For The JC-its dumbing down and you know it. Yeah they'll get their 10% but its ten per cent of a mickey mouse exam.
I have no vote but given this is what? the third time the ASTI wants you to vote on the same agreement...

MrJones1973

deiseindublin wrote: »

Here's hoping.

It is crazy if it an ASTI pupils ends up with a B from missing an element of the marking scheme, and a TUI pupil next door gets an A for same quality of work.

Do you really think the Department would allow that? The Government? Get real. Anyway the exam is a joke

acequion

feardeas wrote: »

Reading those points it looks like there's an acceptance from that group that LRA will have to be entered. I assume this is also a tacit acceptance that CP hours will be part of that given that they are integral to LRA. That is a far cry from when it was considered the devil's buttermilk. The points are vague and offer little or nothing in terms of strategy. I would love to know what proposals would be deemed acceptable in order to allow a recommendation from that group to accept. Particularly given that now they seem to think the eventual destination will be LRA.

I will vote to accept and here are some of the reasons.

Increments unfrozen.
€2500 gross by September. ( s and s and the 1000)
Ward report provisions re-established.(CID after two years)
Our schools get a share of the posts in September.(beginning of s path to promotion)
Our students are assessed in an equal manner.
A beginning has been made on pay restoration.
We will be at the table for the talks on the successor to LRA and this means that we will have a voice.
Access to redeployment for over quota teachers.
Soon ten CP hours can be done outside the whole staff.

These imo are positives. I hear many colleagues who agree. I think in my school it will pass. Nationally I have no idea.

If it is rejected fair enough. Then I think the dept have no option but to offer the terms to individual teachers that may want to it in. Also I think that the TUI would have to become established in voluntary schools.

I know this is not the dominant view here. I understand that people have sincerely held views and respect that.

Can I say finally that the information in Nuacht is comprehensive and for that CEC should be commended.

Those,I'm afraid are crumbs,feardeas, indeed some are open to interpretation as in if in any way positive. For example, all students assessed equally. Really? So the kid in the poor school is on an equal footing with the kid in the posh school when CBA's are assessed by their own teacher,you think? Also a beginning on pay restoration,yes,thanks to ASTI pressure but zero commitment to full restoration at any time.There is no mention of it anywhere in the LRA document and no minister would even agree to it in principle when asked many times during the strikes. Voting yes is voting for continuing pay inequality.

Also for any positive you are guaranteed a raft of negatives because that is how it has been in every one of those agreements. Croke Park saw the cut to LPTs and the abolition of higher qualification allowances, HR saw S&S become core duties and saw sick leave being halved. So it would be very naive not to realise that more of that is on the cards. All in the name of "reform."

Re the attitude to the LRA, I'm sure they still consider it the "devil's buttermilk" as indeed do I, but I think they're being realistic,given that we are the only group outside and given that entering the LRA could be used for barter if we are smart. Once inside we've nothing left. Indeed those agreements were considered the devil's buttermilk by all PS unions when first mooted and this was in the height of a recession. Now that the economy is as good as it's ever likely to be many seem to think them necessary. Why? How did the PS function without them for so long? Of sure, they're meant to be about "reform",in reality they are merely a controlling mechanism and are widely resented. And as for the extra hours, imposing any more that what is necessary for meetings is vindictive and patronising. I would very much hope that in the event of a No,we may be able to get those hours reduced to what is reasonable. In the event of a yes,we're stuck with them forever and like taxes, they will probably increase.

It's just incredible that in a democratic country with a functioning economy and a lot of wealth that workers willingly vote to worsen their own pay and conditions,for the sake of short term coppers.

amacca

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

To be fair to you I did a back of envelope calculation and Im due about 5k gross if this passes. Of course half of that is my increment unfreezes. Money they owe me anyway the bastards

And it would be my opinion its money that you'll probably get anyway (backdated) when Govt side are forced to negotiate under fairer terms in the event of a no vote than if a yes vote is just handed to the Govt etc on a silver platter now....

Of course I could be wrong as could the yes proponents in some of the more what I would think are "aspirational" elements of what they think a yes vote will yield...but I think a continued no creates a big headache and forces actual dialogue and perhaps more compromise than the usual browbeating/bullying and what still looks a hell of a lot like yellow packing + JC lite

The_Valeyard

Prepare for ASTI to be the laughing stock of unions if this passes with current agreement. Furthermore they will never ever be in any strong position in negotiations again as govt knows they will always cave in and roll over.

Eimee90

acequion wrote:

Do continue to stand up to them! It's vitally important to as there is so much at stake.

acequion wrote:

Really sorry that you thought I was attacking you, I really am.

acequion wrote:

Really sorry that you thought I was attacking you, I really am.

Very sorry too. Typing ran away with me. In reponse to another poster our shop stewards are seemingly on the yes side.

maude6868

elsa21 wrote: »

Very sorry too. Typing ran away with me. In reponse to another poster our shop stewards are seemingly on the yes side.

Yes I got that distinct feeling today and it was claimed the ASTI asked that it be stated that further penalties would ensue as yet unknown, swayed a lot of our staff I can tell you.

SligoBrewer

8 grand a year plus all those increments you are due is penalty enough for us weakest members of your union.

I've not seen an increment, CID nor a summer of job security. And I consider myself a very lucky teacher compared to my college classmate.

What is a union if it is not to protect the rights of workers? Why will we cement this unequal treatment in our payscales forever and say it's ok? What examples are we setting to our students, that inequality is alright because we might get penalised for speaking out? What are we accepting that we didn't accept before? Why?

I cannot believe that an 80% mandate with an 80% turnout would vanish in three months. For once it seemed like my colleagues nationwide had my back.

Please do not roll over and allow this to happen. Do not accept anything less than fairness. It's number one in the list of what our students want from us, so we should all be aware of how important it is.

acequion

maude6868 wrote: »

Yes I got that distinct feeling today and it was claimed the ASTI asked that it be stated that further penalties would ensue as yet unknown, swayed a lot of our staff I can tell you.

All the more reason why you must try to sway them back,maude. I attach below the link for the 10 reasons to vote no that I posted earlier. That way it's easier to print it out. It really should be put up on every staff noticeboard,even distributed around staff room tables. 80% voted No last time, we just can't allow a slippage of over 30% because people are running scared. Apart from being turkeys voting for xmas we'd be a laughing stock, as another poster pointed out.

https://0fightback0.wordpress.com/2017/01/15/ten-reasons-to-vote-no-to-des-proposals/

feardeas

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

To be fair to you I did a back of envelope calculation and Im due about 5k gross if this passes. Of course half of that is my increment unfreezes. Money they owe me anyway the bastards
But be warned Feadras-your hope for management posts is just a hope. They are NOT restoring old style posts and you will find that in the Nuacht . They are remodeling the whole thing. Leadership teams and nobody knows what that means,
As For The JC-its dumbing down and you know it. Yeah they'll get their 10% but its ten per cent of a mickey mouse exam.
I have no vote but given this is what? the third time the ASTI wants you to vote on the same agreement...

Leadership teams will probably mean distributed leadership in schools where people might actually feel that they have a say in the place and in how it is ran. I think that would have to be worked out but the union needs to be at the table. I think theold style posts were laughable. It maddens me to see people in my place get money for doing nothing, I mean nothing, simply because they had their backsides i the door for a number of years. Never have a copy home with them never a positive thing to say, and to top it all they do nothing for their posts. Of course nothing done to them or said to them because they are very in with the union as well. If any new agreement on posts ends that nonsense then I say bring it on.

deiseindublin

It sounds like your gripe should be with ineffective management feardeas. Duties should be assigned and followed up on if not completed.

MrJones1973

In Our school of about 640-we are down to about 7/8 posts. The majority bar one are doing a ton more work than previously.

acequion

feardeas wrote: »

Leadership teams will probably mean distributed leadership in schools where people might actually feel that they have a say in the place and in how it is ran. I think that would have to be worked out but the union needs to be at the table. I think theold style posts were laughable. It maddens me to see people in my place get money for doing nothing, I mean nothing, simply because they had their backsides i the door for a number of years. Never have a copy home with them never a positive thing to say, and to top it all they do nothing for their posts. Of course nothing done to them or said to them because they are very in with the union as well. If any new agreement on posts ends that nonsense then I say bring it on.

Don't assume that just because it's that way in your school that that's how it is everywhere! In my school post holders do a ton of work on top of their teaching duties. And never a copy home!! In my place they'd need helpers to carry all the copies to the car! And that's the rare time they're going home at 4. They're normally staying behind with drama, debating, sport,all the different competitions, you name it. Now granted your school might be one extreme, and mine the other. So fair to assume that the reality is in the middle.And that is that teachers work hard,many do extra curricular and post holders do a lot on top of that. Take posts like coordinating exams, coordinating TY, year heads, these are all top heavy with work. No way could you be sitting on your backside!

MrJones1973

My advice to all those emotionally involved in this dispute is to disengage by next week. If it gets rejected great-if not it can be psychologically traumatic. Protect yourselves. Thats why I left the ASTI. I couldn't face another beating. Its going to be close but I still hope Ed rallies the troops a bit more. Talking about secret threats is bull****.

Btw-you can call me a coward but the truth is probably worse!

SligoBrewer

I still don't get why you left and gave up your vote if I'm honest.

MrJones1973

In the last few votes-particularly Hr I was in the media and campaigning big time. Result has been defeat defeat . This time with Ed and Christie I thought we had a chance but I have outlined again and again their failings. I won't be a member of a group that is ruderless. One vote won't matter. This will be passed or defeated by a good margin . Adieu

feardeas

acequion wrote:

Don't assume that just because it's that way in your school that that's how it is everywhere! In my school post holders do a ton of work on top of their teaching duties. And never a copy home!! In my place they'd need helpers to carry all the copies to the car! And that's the rare time they're going home at 4. They're normally staying behind with drama, debating, sport,all the different competitions, you name it. Now granted your school might be one extreme, and mine the other. So fair to assume that the reality is in the middle.And that is that teachers work hard,many do extra curricular and post holders do a lot on top of that. Take posts like coordinating exams, coordinating TY, year heads, these are all top heavy with work. No way could you be sitting on your backside!

I said some. I know it's a minority. I work hard as all but a few of my colleagues do. I know some who are driven to breaking point with the post and some who do nothing.

As for managing them. War would result and call to HQ.

Anyway it's all nearly over now.

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

In the last few votes-particularly Hr I was in the media and campaigning big time. Result has been defeat defeat . This time with Ed and Christie I thought we had a chance but I have outlined again and again their failings. I won't be a member of a group that is ruderless. One vote won't matter. This will be passed or defeated by a good margin . Adieu

I'd go on about the principle of it but you've done more than I'll ever do.

MrJones1973

SligoBrewer wrote: »

I'd go on about the principle of it but you've done more than I'll ever do.

To be fair mark Walshe SC has done more than any man in the Asti as have fightback but I did my bit. Will do so again. It's my way. I'm either totally committed or totally out. I shall join the fray again. I love teaching and I think trade unions one of the few powers in Ireland not bought off.

deiseindublin

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

One vote won't matter.

If everybody said that it wouldn't be great.

amacca

feardeas wrote: »

If any new agreement on posts ends that nonsense then I say bring it on.

I'd be very wary of any new agreement with the phrase distributed leadership in it. I'd also be really wary of it leading to real chances of climbing the ladder ..in fact Id be wary of any reforms brought in by this Govt as being beneficial to students or teachers as a whole and not just being levers to control or mechanisms with a divide and conquer philosophy at heart long term...never mind squeezing the budget.

Its all lovely in theory but I'd forsee it heading down the road of extra money for talking shops where the usual few who love the sound of their own voice spend time thinking up ways to multiply the paper trail or come up with additional flavour of the month initiatives while adding more probably unnecessary workload onto their colleagues only for the latest time waster to be forgotten a couple of months down the road.......or being asked to do management tasks without management money never mind the proper correct and fair amount of time freed up to do them properly...or a bit of both.

And you can probably also bet if money is given out in this way it will be taken away from somewhere else it should be

They should be working towards reducing the pupil teacher ratio to something more sensible and reducing contact hours and putting in place legislation to counteract the one sided everyone has a right to education that can be enforced but responsibilities that cannot be regime we have now - that would probably be a much better idea than creating a mid layer of mini management jargon slingers.

doc_17

If ASTI schools don't do the CBA they will be marked out of 90%.

Benicetomonty

doc_17 wrote: »

If ASTI schools don't do the CBA they will be marked out of 90%.

The students will you mean? Id be fascinated to see if that came to pass. Parents of around 2/3 rds of JC students will be justifiably furious on their kids' behalf and the ASTI will be mandated to let it happen. Bruton, on the other hand, will have from February until June to think about actually following through on his dept's threat while Fianna Fail will be forced to take an opposing position. I simply dont believe it will happen. No way he invokes the wrath of that many parents/voters when hes in a position to prevent it. He would be using the students as pawns, as ASTI are so often accused of doing, and no matter how the media spins it, he would be the only man in a position to stop it if the ballot is rejected.

man_no_plan

Benicetomonty wrote: »

The students will you mean? Id be fascinated to see if that came to pass. Parents of around 2/3 rds of JC students will be justifiably furious on their kids' behalf and the ASTI will be mandated to let it happen. Bruton, on the other hand, will have from February until June to think about actually following through on his dept's threat while Fianna Fail will be forced to take an opposing position. I simply dont believe it will happen. No way he invokes the wrath of that many parents/voters when hes in a position to prevent it. He would be using the students as pawns, as ASTI are so often accused of doing, and no matter how the media spins it, he would be the only man in a position to stop it if the ballot is rejected.

If they didn't hand in their woodwork project the wouldn't get marked. Inter-candidate equity is the term the SEC use.


If parents have a gripe it won't be with Richard Bruton, it will be with the teachers.

Benicetomonty

man_no_plan wrote: »

If they didn't hand in their woodwork project the wouldn't get marked. Inter-candidate equity is the term the SEC use.


If parents have a gripe it won't be with Richard Bruton, it will be with the teachers.

Not comparable. Two thirds of students dont do woodwork and have never been put in a position like this in any subject before. No doubt teachers will come in for dog's abuse for a month or two. Then the realisation will hit that the teachers they complain to/about wont be in a position to do anything about the situation. A mandate is a mandate and another makeshift ballot wont happen in time to get the assessment task done. Thereafter, parents will realise that the only person insisting on the docking of the 10pc is the minister. It will be entirely on him. I expect he knows as much and is praying the ballot is accepted.

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

If they didn't hand in their woodwork project the wouldn't get marked. Inter-candidate equity is the term the SEC use.


If parents have a gripe it won't be with Richard Bruton, it will be with the teachers.

Yes,you're right, many will be furious with the teachers. But everybody is aware that ultimately the buck stops with Bruton and that it will be he who is using the children as pawns,not the teachers.

So that is one threat I can't see him carrying out. I want a no because I think a yes would be a disaster, but the no would prove once and for all just how far they will go in retaliation. I agree with the poster who said this will be a fascinating one to watch if it comes to pass.