Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

JD3112

If it is passed, will all schools have to go to one hour class timetables??

Have some schools already changed to one hour class timetables as a result of new JC?

km79

JD3112 wrote: »

If it is passed, will all schools have to go to one hour class timetables??

Have some schools already changed to one hour class timetables as a result of new JC?

No school HAS to go to one hour classes
There are other options

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

If they didn't hand in their woodwork project the wouldn't get marked. Inter-candidate equity is the term the SEC use.


If parents have a gripe it won't be with Richard Bruton, it will be with the teachers.

i they didnt hand in their woodwork project because the school burnt down the night before the lad from the dept came to check them out they would certainly be given the mark. its happened before where schools have lost projects and have smoothed it over with the sec.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

i they didnt hand in their woodwork project because the school burnt down the night before the lad from the dept came to check them out they would certainly be given the mark. its happened before where schools have lost projects and have smoothed it over with the sec.

Based on a teachers assessment of the standard of the work originally presented, funnily enough. I wonder would that be against the principle of marking your own students work? I have no experience of it myself judeboy you might fill me in.

The second last point I will make on this is that on the scenario here work was done and marks awarded. In the JC English scenario work isn't done. I appreciate the position of ASTI members following the directive however it would be a dangerous precedent.

Finally, I despair when I read here what people think accepting or rejecting this agreement means. I'm reluctant to give the example of one hour classes, I don't mean to single out a poster, but it has absolutely nothing to do with anything. There's too much going on in the dispute and too much misnformation. I don't know who is to blame on it ASTI seem to have a clear guide on their website, I wonder how many hits it has had? I think that the last time the small print wasn't read and that's part of the reason the strike collapsed.

I suppose we will know soon enough anyway.

doc_17

Why would people be annoyed if they were marked out of 90? They'd have a comparable chance to get an A (in old terms). The threshold for it would be lowered as well.

Legislation protects the ASTI from not doing the CBA so the students won't be "punished" for not being able to it.

km79

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/standing-committee-cec-decisions-on-future-actions/

That's timely and badly needed

acequion

km79 wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/standing-committee-cec-decisions-on-future-actions/

That's timely and badly needed

Absolutely. And ye can thank those of us who have spent the week hounding them to do it.

But thanks for posting the link, let's do whatever is necessary to campaign for a No.

km79

acequion wrote: »

Absolutely. And ye can thank those of us who have spent the week hounding them to do it.

But thanks for posting the link, let's do whatever is necessary to campaign for a No.

It could be vital
A lot of talk again today about What Ifs in the staffroom. That's answers most of them
The threat of strike action still there in the 3rd billet point but a lot of should be allayed

I don't know what way it will go now
I think it will be tight

Alqua

RTE lead with strike action in their headline, of course: http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0120/846575-asti-strike-warning/

km79

Alqua wrote: »

RTE lead with strike action in their headline, of course: http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0120/846575-asti-strike-warning/

Sadly that's where a lot of teachers get their info

amacca

Alqua wrote: »

RTE lead with strike action in their headline, of course: http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0120/846575-asti-strike-warning/

if thats the case its wrong imo....Im sorry I know its a business and shock horror sells ...but it also influences unfairly and one can't but help suspect bias too.

acequion

amacca wrote: »

if thats the case its wrong imo....Im sorry I know its a business and shock horror sells ...but it also influences unfairly and one can't but help suspect bias too.

"SUSPECT!!!!!!!" Jeez Amacca it's way beyond "suspect." The bias is so staggeringly blatant it's almost funny!

amacca

acequion wrote: »

"SUSPECT!!!!!!!" Jeez Amacca it's way beyond "suspect." The bias is so staggeringly blatant it's almost funny!

Agreed...maybe they've half battered me into submission at this stage.

I suppose I sometimes moderate what I really feel on the basis that maybe theres more than one side to the story but having looked at, listened to and read some of what is called fair and objective reporting/journalism its been pretty abhorrently agenda driven/biased at times for at least the last 15/20 years in this country...and probably before that too but it didn't worry me as much then I suppose.

A lot of media consumed nowadays is god awful drivel..but whats worrying is how much of an opinion former it is for some people/how little they want to think for themselves...or when they do decide to think for themselves they select the bit that suits the way they view the situation

SligoBrewer

Emma O'Kelly, RTE's education correspondent, is one of the few people who accurately portray the situation fairly.

Sir123

Was just over on Voice of Teachers page on FB, don't know if anyone saw it, but I was horrified reading a few yes vote comments by some Asti members. I'm not sure that everyone is aware of the implications of a yes vote. Inequality will always be there, bullying by governments will no doubt continue to occur within the profession for eternity with a dumbed down education system that will cause all sorts of problems. Teachers need to stand up now. Vote NO. Short term pain for long term gain. As Elvis would have said in one of his all time classics "it's now or never".

SligoBrewer

Even among young teachers people are being swayed by the CIDs and the 1000 quid next month. I despair.

deiseindublin

What annoys me is that they hear the headline of €1000 and fold for it. Most of them will be lucky to get an extra €10 a week, probably nearer €5 for anybody on higher tax with pension levy etc.

themusicman

I've followed this thread , and the whole situation, silently until now, but feel I should put another point of view into the mix.

I am not happy with where we are at today, facing a ballot on a set of recommendations that, frankly, are an insult to people who have invested years and fortunes in qualifying to become teachers, and in my experience of younger teachers, people who fill me with hope for the future of the profession in this country.

That said, a step back and a look at the wider context has left me agonising about where to put my x on the ballot paper....and it is this stepping back and cool heads that everyone requires ahead of next week.

I remember the series Yes Prime Minister when Jim Hacker was cautioned to never make a speech when you are angry because it will be the best speech you will ever regret.

So I will break down the different elements and try to enunciate how I feel...and this will help me in my process , and please do debate the points.

LPT.... no brainer...its wrong....but 9 months ago no one cared.....except the passionate articulate members of the ASTI who spelt it out and got the government to concede the principle and make an offer they would never otherwise have made. Is it acceptable...no....is the the best we can hope for as of now...maybe....I'll outline what I think the next move should be in a minute.

Junior Cert....ship has sailed....and the courses are being rolled out...without any ASTI input.....and we should be at the table fighting for what we believe...not sitting around cursing the darkness.

S and S.....a joke....Im old enough to remember when this was free and voluntary and reasonable...no forced and unsustainable...and I think the opt out is a sign the Government know this too...so the crack in that wall has now appeared....one to retain memory of the next time we are at the table.

Redundancy/ward report/CID's.....we shouldn't be surprised at the employer's actions here......the law around CID's is what it is...the concessions were hard fought for by our negotiators....and the government have drawn it into the give and take of agreements.

So I fear for the young teachers in ASTI schools who when they hit the interview rounds and get asked about their experience will be at a disadvantage if they can't engage with Junior Cert training as they desperately seek the crumb of a maternity/low hours contract.

This is merely a battle in a war...to use strategic thinking if a less than suitable analogy...for we and the department should not be engaged in a war!

Is it time to cut and run and bank the beginnings of the full equalisation of pay....maybe ...maybe not.....

Is it time to accept that the people we , as members of the ASTI, put our trust in our negotiators and say....we believe you did your best, and this is all that you can get for now......maybe...maybe not

Is the right move now, bearing in mind the government want the next agreement signed off on before the budget in October, to accept....to get into the next negotiations from the start, and to make it clear that there should be no pay rise for existing public servants until there is 1 pay scale for all....maybe thats the smart strategic move....from a PR perspective its a no brainer...as its people saying no to a pay rise...and yes to equality....a phrase borrowed from a recent referendum...which was highly successful

So I'm conflicted...
And fearful.....because Im seeing teachers fighting with teachers....
We have to be as one...even though we are all holding a variety of views...I may be right...I may be wrong....but i am holding a different point of view to you...and thats ok....MUST be our attitude when talking with each other.

Im old enough to remember benchmarking and the 1998/9 strikes
And i listened to the old timers then talking about teachers united in the 1980's ....which got me my days off school as a student!!!!
We have battled before..and we will again....

Whatever your point of view....the opposite one is not wrong.....and we must all get out and vote .....so that we...the members ....express that point of view

and when the result is announced....the sun will rise the following day....we will still give everything we have for the children in our care.....and we will still sit in the same staff rooms.....
Lets make sure that we can drink the tea together too!

Thanks for reading

km79

themusicman wrote: »

I've followed this thread , and the whole situation, silently until now, but feel I should put another point of view into the mix.

I am not happy with where we are at today, facing a ballot on a set of recommendations that, frankly, are an insult to people who have invested years and fortunes in qualifying to become teachers, and in my experience of younger teachers, people who fill me with hope for the future of the profession in this country.

That said, a step back and a look at the wider context has left me agonising about where to put my x on the ballot paper....and it is this stepping back and cool heads that everyone requires ahead of next week.

I remember the series Yes Prime Minister when Jim Hacker was cautioned to never make a speech when you are angry because it will be the best speech you will ever regret.

So I will break down the different elements and try to enunciate how I feel...and this will help me in my process , and please do debate the points.

LPT.... no brainer...its wrong....but 9 months ago no one cared.....except the passionate articulate members of the ASTI who spelt it out and got the government to concede the principle and make an offer they would never otherwise have made. Is it acceptable...no....is the the best we can hope for as of now...maybe....I'll outline what I think the next move should be in a minute.

Junior Cert....ship has sailed....and the courses are being rolled out...without any ASTI input.....and we should be at the table fighting for what we believe...not sitting around cursing the darkness.

S and S.....a joke....Im old enough to remember when this was free and voluntary and reasonable...no forced and unsustainable...and I think the opt out is a sign the Government know this too...so the crack in that wall has now appeared....one to retain memory of the next time we are at the table.

Redundancy/ward report/CID's.....we shouldn't be surprised at the employer's actions here......the law around CID's is what it is...the concessions were hard fought for by our negotiators....and the government have drawn it into the give and take of agreements.

So I fear for the young teachers in ASTI schools who when they hit the interview rounds and get asked about their experience will be at a disadvantage if they can't engage with Junior Cert training as they desperately seek the crumb of a maternity/low hours contract.

This is merely a battle in a war...to use strategic thinking if a less than suitable analogy...for we and the department should not be engaged in a war!

Is it time to cut and run and bank the beginnings of the full equalisation of pay....maybe ...maybe not.....

Is it time to accept that the people we , as members of the ASTI, put our trust in our negotiators and say....we believe you did your best, and this is all that you can get for now......maybe...maybe not

Is the right move now, bearing in mind the government want the next agreement signed off on before the budget in October, to accept....to get into the next negotiations from the start, and to make it clear that there should be no pay rise for existing public servants until there is 1 pay scale for all....maybe thats the smart strategic move....from a PR perspective its a no brainer...as its people saying no to a pay rise...and yes to equality....a phrase borrowed from a recent referendum...which was highly successful

So I'm conflicted...
And fearful.....because Im seeing teachers fighting with teachers....
We have to be as one...even though we are all holding a variety of views...I may be right...I may be wrong....but i am holding a different point of view to you...and thats ok....MUST be our attitude when talking with each other.

Im old enough to remember benchmarking and the 1998/9 strikes
And i listened to the old timers then talking about teachers united in the 1980's ....which got me my days off school as a student!!!!
We have battled before..and we will again....

Whatever your point of view....the opposite one is not wrong.....and we must all get out and vote .....so that we...the members ....express that point of view

and when the result is announced....the sun will rise the following day....we will still give everything we have for the children in our care.....and we will still sit in the same staff rooms.....
Lets make sure that we can drink the tea together too!

Thanks for reading

Excellent post brilliantly articulates how I now feel !

2011abc

Vote No .The ratio of No to Yes 'posters' is remarkably similar to those who voted against and for current regime .That shouldn't be surprising to people .There ARE those who vote FOR suicide , homelessness and hospital queues .Thank God the majority of us care about more than the euro in our pocket .
It's sad how kowed down many of our non CID colleagues have become .The young male teacher on Generation F'd is a pitiful sight ...." I just want to work "....

MrJones1973

I would not conflate this with suicide. I think thats heartless (personally). I predict 60-40% for this. Im sorry . I wish it were not so. I will leave this forum permanently if its rejected and buy aqueion a dinner in a nice restaurant .

feardeas

I doubt the state takes three quarters of what it gives, in fairness. Never happened with any of the increments I got at any rate.

km79

feardeas wrote: »

I doubt the state takes three quarters of what it gives, in fairness. Never happened with any of the increments I got at any rate.

3/5
In other words the majority

2011abc

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I would not conflate this with suicide. I think thats heartless (personally). I predict 60-40% for this. Im sorry . I wish it were not so. I will leave this forum permanently if its rejected and buy aqueion a dinner in a nice restaurant .

It all originates with FG and FF before them .They decided that to protect themselves and their rich friends a far , far higher level of 'collateral damage' was acceptable .There was a period before Christmas when Cork ( not the country , Cork !) had consecutive daily suicides for over a fortnight .Austerity has a price .Time to Fightback .
I will keep an eye out for you two on Irish First Dates .

MrJones1973

I agree with you on the levels of austerity imposed. There was going to be cut backs and only a fool would say the state could avoid any. Who would fund us? But I did have an issue with the level of attrition particularly in Health. I think FG is at heart anti Gov expenditure/Anti Public servant but they had great help from Labour. Yes-Labour did stop heavy welfare cuts and are to be applauded for that but besides that they were indistinguishable From FG.


I too begrudge heavily the Bank debt we were forced to pay but I really doubt we could have told the EU to F off when they had us by the balls in terms of funding day to day expenditure but I at least would have liked to see all Bank directors sacked . I would also have liked to see directors prosecuted for running their companies into the ground-something perfectly legal under the companies Act (prosecutions)

I wont vote ff/FG/Lab-all FEMPI parties. Can anybody else here make that claim?

2011abc

Hell yeah , I'd imagine Loads ...

MrJones1973

themusicman wrote: »

I've followed this thread , and the whole situation, silently until now, but feel I should put another point of view into the mix.

I am not happy with where we are at today, facing a ballot on a set of recommendations that, frankly, are an insult to people who have invested years and fortunes in qualifying to become teachers, and in my experience of younger teachers, people who fill me with hope for the future of the profession in this country.

That said, a step back and a look at the wider context has left me agonising about where to put my x on the ballot paper....and it is this stepping back and cool heads that everyone requires ahead of next week.

I remember the series Yes Prime Minister when Jim Hacker was cautioned to never make a speech when you are angry because it will be the best speech you will ever regret.

So I will break down the different elements and try to enunciate how I feel...and this will help me in my process , and please do debate the points.

LPT.... no brainer...its wrong....but 9 months ago no one cared.....except the passionate articulate members of the ASTI who spelt it out and got the government to concede the principle and make an offer they would never otherwise have made. Is it acceptable...no....is the the best we can hope for as of now...maybe....I'll outline what I think the next move should be in a minute.

Junior Cert....ship has sailed....and the courses are being rolled out...without any ASTI input.....and we should be at the table fighting for what we believe...not sitting around cursing the darkness.

S and S.....a joke....Im old enough to remember when this was free and voluntary and reasonable...no forced and unsustainable...and I think the opt out is a sign the Government know this too...so the crack in that wall has now appeared....one to retain memory of the next time we are at the table.

Redundancy/ward report/CID's.....we shouldn't be surprised at the employer's actions here......the law around CID's is what it is...the concessions were hard fought for by our negotiators....and the government have drawn it into the give and take of agreements.

So I fear for the young teachers in ASTI schools who when they hit the interview rounds and get asked about their experience will be at a disadvantage if they can't engage with Junior Cert training as they desperately seek the crumb of a maternity/low hours contract.

This is merely a battle in a war...to use strategic thinking if a less than suitable analogy...for we and the department should not be engaged in a war!

Is it time to cut and run and bank the beginnings of the full equalisation of pay....maybe ...maybe not.....

Is it time to accept that the people we , as members of the ASTI, put our trust in our negotiators and say....we believe you did your best, and this is all that you can get for now......maybe...maybe not

Is the right move now, bearing in mind the government want the next agreement signed off on before the budget in October, to accept....to get into the next negotiations from the start, and to make it clear that there should be no pay rise for existing public servants until there is 1 pay scale for all....maybe thats the smart strategic move....from a PR perspective its a no brainer...as its people saying no to a pay rise...and yes to equality....a phrase borrowed from a recent referendum...which was highly successful

So I'm conflicted...
And fearful.....because Im seeing teachers fighting with teachers....
We have to be as one...even though we are all holding a variety of views...I may be right...I may be wrong....but i am holding a different point of view to you...and thats ok....MUST be our attitude when talking with each other.

Im old enough to remember benchmarking and the 1998/9 strikes
And i listened to the old timers then talking about teachers united in the 1980's ....which got me my days off school as a student!!!!
We have battled before..and we will again....

Whatever your point of view....the opposite one is not wrong.....and we must all get out and vote .....so that we...the members ....express that point of view

and when the result is announced....the sun will rise the following day....we will still give everything we have for the children in our care.....and we will still sit in the same staff rooms.....
Lets make sure that we can drink the tea together too!

Thanks for reading

But you must see the pattern above? Grand old duke of york. Teaching has been a profession in decline last 12 years. We give productivity for pay increases up to 2007-we get cut back but productivity remains. Post structure practically gone-we get bull **** leadership teams as the new offer? Three pay scales? **** pensions for New entrants (something they dont seem to realize)
Its going downhill. ASTI only a brake. Temp. A long dispute is needed not a "please dont beat us as much massser Department. We be good" attitude.

feardeas

km79 wrote:

3/5 In other words the majority

It's called progressive taxation. Even AAA/PBP like that.

km79

feardeas wrote: »

It's called progressive taxation. Even AAA/PBP like that.

I don't care what its called
It affects the gross figures being bandied about as a reason to vote Yes

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Bu**** pensions for New entrants (something they dont seem to realize)

It's very obvious when the Cornmarket lads are too ashamed to put up the pension for new entrants when they come around on their tours.