Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I will leave this forum permanently if its rejected and buy aqueion a dinner in a nice restaurant .

2011abc wrote: »

I will keep an eye out for you two on Irish First Dates .

Lol I've expensive tastes though so you'd hardly be able to afford it on a teacher's salary! :pac:

acequion

themusicman wrote: »

I've followed this thread , and the whole situation, silently until now, but feel I should put another point of view into the mix.

I am not happy with where we are at today, facing a ballot on a set of recommendations that, frankly, are an insult to people who have invested years and fortunes in qualifying to become teachers, and in my experience of younger teachers, people who fill me with hope for the future of the profession in this country.

That said, a step back and a look at the wider context has left me agonising about where to put my x on the ballot paper....and it is this stepping back and cool heads that everyone requires ahead of next week.

I remember the series Yes Prime Minister when Jim Hacker was cautioned to never make a speech when you are angry because it will be the best speech you will ever regret.

So I will break down the different elements and try to enunciate how I feel...and this will help me in my process , and please do debate the points.

LPT.... no brainer...its wrong....but 9 months ago no one cared.....except the passionate articulate members of the ASTI who spelt it out and got the government to concede the principle and make an offer they would never otherwise have made. Is it acceptable...no....is the the best we can hope for as of now...maybe....I'll outline what I think the next move should be in a minute.

Junior Cert....ship has sailed....and the courses are being rolled out...without any ASTI input.....and we should be at the table fighting for what we believe...not sitting around cursing the darkness.

S and S.....a joke....Im old enough to remember when this was free and voluntary and reasonable...no forced and unsustainable...and I think the opt out is a sign the Government know this too...so the crack in that wall has now appeared....one to retain memory of the next time we are at the table.

Redundancy/ward report/CID's.....we shouldn't be surprised at the employer's actions here......the law around CID's is what it is...the concessions were hard fought for by our negotiators....and the government have drawn it into the give and take of agreements.

So I fear for the young teachers in ASTI schools who when they hit the interview rounds and get asked about their experience will be at a disadvantage if they can't engage with Junior Cert training as they desperately seek the crumb of a maternity/low hours contract.

This is merely a battle in a war...to use strategic thinking if a less than suitable analogy...for we and the department should not be engaged in a war!

Is it time to cut and run and bank the beginnings of the full equalisation of pay....maybe ...maybe not.....

Is it time to accept that the people we , as members of the ASTI, put our trust in our negotiators and say....we believe you did your best, and this is all that you can get for now......maybe...maybe not

Is the right move now, bearing in mind the government want the next agreement signed off on before the budget in October, to accept....to get into the next negotiations from the start, and to make it clear that there should be no pay rise for existing public servants until there is 1 pay scale for all....maybe thats the smart strategic move....from a PR perspective its a no brainer...as its people saying no to a pay rise...and yes to equality....a phrase borrowed from a recent referendum...which was highly successful

So I'm conflicted...
And fearful.....because Im seeing teachers fighting with teachers....
We have to be as one...even though we are all holding a variety of views...I may be right...I may be wrong....but i am holding a different point of view to you...and thats ok....MUST be our attitude when talking with each other.

Im old enough to remember benchmarking and the 1998/9 strikes
And i listened to the old timers then talking about teachers united in the 1980's ....which got me my days off school as a student!!!!
We have battled before..and we will again....

Whatever your point of view....the opposite one is not wrong.....and we must all get out and vote .....so that we...the members ....express that point of view

and when the result is announced....the sun will rise the following day....we will still give everything we have for the children in our care.....and we will still sit in the same staff rooms.....
Lets make sure that we can drink the tea together too!

Thanks for reading

Thank you themusicman for your contribution, your tone of quiet respect for other posters and other points of view is refreshing and I appreciate it.I wish the rest of us would always be so civil.

However, as a passionate No campaigner I'd like to debate your points. That's an interesting one about never making a speech when angry but I have to disagree. While fury is impotent, anger is potent. Anger energises and motivates and is the direct opponent of apathy, apathy from which many in our profession suffer, an apathy born of defeatism. And anger is essential to truly feel the injustice of the treatment meted out to teachers for several years now. Essential also to fuel the courage to take and continue action.

The sun will indeed rise the day after the result and we will sit in the same staff rooms and we will be cordial as always but do remember that collegiality is dying a slow death in these corporate times,helped greatly by successive agreements. And still giving everything for the children in our care? That I very much doubt if it's a yes, as we just won't have the time. We'll be too busy and too exhausted at countless meetings,box ticking,covering our tracks. The voluntary side of the job at which Ireland's teachers have always excelled is like collegiality,dying a slow death and things will be a lot worse if this passes.Oh we'll still try to do our very best for our students but standards will slip, that's guaranteed.


LPTs and timing. Over on the ASTI facebook page Andrew Phelan makes a very good point about timing, arguing that this is not the time to cave because if we do the pressure will be off the Govt in relation to pay parity. Whereas if we remain outside it puts huge pressure on them. You also seem to believe that negotiations within the agreements are fairly conducted with equal weighting given to all parties. That I would very much doubt as these agreements are a straitjacket with each one having worsened our conditions. Furthermore ASTI will have no clout or credibility in any negotiations if we cave now in fear, abandoning all our principled campaigns.It is clearly stated in the LRA that parties can sign up at any stage so not giving in now doesn't mean we have to stay forever outside. I agree with Andrew that now is not the right time.

Also the timing isn't right in relation to the JC. You are completely wrong in saying that the ship has sailed. It hasn't. Granted the syllabus has changed and teachers are teaching new courses but up to now two thirds of Ireland's children have not done the CBA's and two thirds of Ireland's teachers haven't carried out SLARs so how can the ship have sailed? And if we hold the line and not cave at this point we will have succeeded in not cooperating with assessment in the first year of English and that strengthens our hand in forcing proper dialogue on our very legitimate concerns in relation to this new JC. It's by no means too late for the Govt to row back on certain aspects. The fact that they won't isn't good enough and certainly not a reason to throw in the towel. The future of education is at stake here. And within the agreement there is no table where members can fight.

As for young ASTI teachers being at a disadvantage in interviews,I see your point. However, firstly, those ASTI teachers are in the majority and secondly, I've heard pretty dismal accounts of the actual training. The ASTI teachers are still teaching the new courses and their classroom experience should carry much more weight in an interview.A good teacher with good qualifications and references should be disadvantaged by just one aspect of a multi faceted job.

We were in the exact same situation some years ago when we caved on HR and the same arguments were thrown out ie better within than without, the Govt wont cave plus all the threats.We caved then out of fear and things haven't got better,they've got worse.

Please let's not make that mistake again.

VOTE NO

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

Lol I've expensive tastes though so you'd hardly be able to afford it on a teacher's salary! :pac:

Ah sure I've been shoring up my teachers salary with grinds and inheritance. The offer remains. It's a sincere offer. Btw I'm happily married!!

JD3112

Earlier I asked if all schools had to go one hour classes and that was answered. But I remember something about class lengths changing.

Do all schools have to go to a minimum of 40 mins??

We have a mixture of 35 minute & 40 minute classes so changing all the 35min classes to 40 will affect our timetable quite a bit.
Thanks

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Ah sure I've been shoring up my teachers salary with grinds and inheritance. The offer remains. It's a sincere offer. Btw I'm happily married!!

And I'm happily attached but hey ya never know! ;);) [lol]

joebloggs32

JD3112 wrote: »

Earlier I asked if all schools had to go one hour classes and that was answered. But I remember something about class lengths changing.

Do all schools have to go to a minimum of 40 mins??

We have a mixture of 35 minute & 40 minute classes so changing all the 35min classes to 40 will affect our timetable quite a bit.
Thanks

Yes, all a minimum of 40. Nothing to say it can't be 45, 50, 55, etc

Education matters

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Yes, all a minimum of 40. Nothing to say it can't be 45, 50, 55, etc

There is nothing to say it can't be above 40 but we need to remember that as of next year every single teacher who is involved with JC will have 40 minutes knocked off their timetable. So a teacher with full hours will only teach 21 hours 20 minutes. That will be difficult to implement if using anything more than 40 minute slots .

mirrorwall14

Education matters wrote: »

There is nothing to say it can't be above 40 but we need to remember that as of next year every single teacher who is involved with JC will have 40 minutes knocked off their timetable. So a teacher with full hours will only teach 21 hours 20 minutes. That will be difficult to implement if using anything more than 40 minute slots .

This. We went to 40 minute slots because of this. The timetable negotiations were war in the staffroom. Not my favourite time of year. And that's before certain departments get their head around the reduction in hours for all subjects under the new curriculum.

The only 1hr class proposal we heard in relation timetable of 21hrs 40 was that you would have to nominate two one hour class periods to miss every three weeks which seems ludicrous. No one would ever want to miss their exam classes so you could have students missing multiple teachers in the same week particularly if they were 1,2 or 5 year students

themusicman

acequion wrote: »

Thank you themusicman for your contribution, your tone of quiet respect for other posters and other points of view is refreshing and I appreciate it.I wish the rest of us would always be so civil.

However, as a passionate No campaigner I'd like to debate your points. That's an interesting one about never making a speech when angry but I have to disagree. While fury is impotent, anger is potent. Anger energises and motivates and is the direct opponent of apathy, apathy from which many in our profession suffer, an apathy born of defeatism. And anger is essential to truly feel the injustice of the treatment meted out to teachers for several years now. Essential also to fuel the courage to take and continue action.

The sun will indeed rise the day after the result and we will sit in the same staff rooms and we will be cordial as always but do remember that collegiality is dying a slow death in these corporate times,helped greatly by successive agreements. And still giving everything for the children in our care? That I very much doubt if it's a yes, as we just won't have the time. We'll be too busy and too exhausted at countless meetings,box ticking,covering our tracks. The voluntary side of the job at which Ireland's teachers have always excelled is like collegiality,dying a slow death and things will be a lot worse if this passes.Oh we'll still try to do our very best for our students but standards will slip, that's guaranteed.


LPTs and timing. Over on the ASTI facebook page Andrew Phelan makes a very good point about timing, arguing that this is not the time to cave because if we do the pressure will be off the Govt in relation to pay parity. Whereas if we remain outside it puts huge pressure on them. You also seem to believe that negotiations within the agreements are fairly conducted with equal weighting given to all parties. That I would very much doubt as these agreements are a straitjacket with each one having worsened our conditions. Furthermore ASTI will have no clout or credibility in any negotiations if we cave now in fear, abandoning all our principled campaigns.It is clearly stated in the LRA that parties can sign up at any stage so not giving in now doesn't mean we have to stay forever outside. I agree with Andrew that now is not the right time.

Also the timing isn't right in relation to the JC. You are completely wrong in saying that the ship has sailed. It hasn't. Granted the syllabus has changed and teachers are teaching new courses but up to now two thirds of Ireland's children have not done the CBA's and two thirds of Ireland's teachers haven't carried out SLARs so how can the ship have sailed? And if we hold the line and not cave at this point we will have succeeded in not cooperating with assessment in the first year of English and that strengthens our hand in forcing proper dialogue on our very legitimate concerns in relation to this new JC. It's by no means too late for the Govt to row back on certain aspects. The fact that they won't isn't good enough and certainly not a reason to throw in the towel. The future of education is at stake here. And within the agreement there is no table where members can fight.

As for young ASTI teachers being at a disadvantage in interviews,I see your point. However, firstly, those ASTI teachers are in the majority and secondly, I've heard pretty dismal accounts of the actual training. The ASTI teachers are still teaching the new courses and their classroom experience should carry much more weight in an interview.A good teacher with good qualifications and references should be disadvantaged by just one aspect of a multi faceted job.

We were in the exact same situation some years ago when we caved on HR and the same arguments were thrown out ie better within than without, the Govt wont cave plus all the threats.We caved then out of fear and things haven't got better,they've got worse.

Please let's not make that mistake again.

VOTE NO

Thank you for your reply...and it is by stopping and thinking that we can come to a mature decision

I will take your point about timing and the agreement.....i'm just positing that this may be the time to get in to the next negotiations...similar to a football team that is still playing last weeks game when this one has kicked off....and it has...judging by the adjustment already made to ease off agitation by bringing forward the September 1000 to April

However I will disagree re JC
the syllabus is written and being delivered in 3
More are ready...including music which as my name suggests is my subject....
so the battle is around assessment....and we have, as a union, had no input into what we are describing as a dumbing down of content....and thats the point i was making....the place to fight these changes is when the syllabi are being written

I fear for the profession....like you obviously do....and i fear for the future in the short term too because passions are being inflamed..

But i am conflicted.....

and struggling with the idea that i have to put my x in the box this week

and I'm not sure no is the best move this time
but i don't think yes is either

deiseindublin

I think if one is conflicted the only way to vote is NO, stick with the status quo. If you vote Yes, you may never get the chance again, even if you change your mind.

acequion

themusicman wrote: »

Thank you for your reply...and it is by stopping and thinking that we can come to a mature decision

I will take your point about timing and the agreement.....i'm just positing that this may be the time to get in to the next negotiations...similar to a football team that is still playing last weeks game when this one has kicked off....and it has...judging by the adjustment already made to ease off agitation by bringing forward the September 1000 to April

However I will disagree re JC
the syllabus is written and being delivered in 3
More are ready...including music which as my name suggests is my subject....
so the battle is around assessment....and we have, as a union, had no input into what we are describing as a dumbing down of content....and thats the point i was making....the place to fight these changes is when the syllabi are being written

I fear for the profession....like you obviously do....and i fear for the future in the short term too because passions are being inflamed..

But i am conflicted.....

and struggling with the idea that i have to put my x in the box this week

and I'm not sure no is the best move this time
but i don't think yes is either

The syllabi is being written by the NCCA which has teacher representatives and is outside the dispute. However,from what I hear, teachers are increasingly sidelined and their views not being taken into account.My point being that a yes in the ballot will not make a whit of difference to the syllabi. However by applying pressure from outside we may get them to reconsider certain elements. As we all know from previous syllabi changes,it can evolve in a certain,direction once underway. With pressure from ourselves I would hope that the English specification,for example, could be refined.

Also,have you forgotten about common level papers?? That's huge! And totally unfair to everyone. When the ASTI negotiators pushed this one with the Dept they were blithely told that the teachers could differentiate. Now we all know that in our current overcrowded classrooms,that's a joke! I'm sceptical of this whole differentiation thing anyway, especially in schools with major discipline issues, but we might have some hope if we could get a commitment to reducing class sizes. Again the only way is to keep up the campaign.

Another problem is no provision for orals in modern languages. Crazy!! I speak four languages so I know from experience that you have to push the oral skills from the get go. So a new course without an oral provision is like an empty box.

And those issues are in addition to the assessment issues. If we give in now and say yes, we'll never see those issues properly addressed and will look as if we were never all that committed to fighting for them

As for being at the table for the next negotiations, if we say yes, ASTI will have lost all credibility and with it any influence. Who would take any notice of a crowd who runs whimpering for cover when the going gets tough!

mirrorwall14

themusicman wrote: »

Thank you for your reply...and it is by stopping and thinking that we can come to a mature decision

I will take your point about timing and the agreement.....i'm just positing that this may be the time to get in to the next negotiations...similar to a football team that is still playing last weeks game when this one has kicked off....and it has...judging by the adjustment already made to ease off agitation by bringing forward the September 1000 to April

However I will disagree re JC
the syllabus is written and being delivered in 3
More are ready...including music which as my name suggests is my subject....
so the battle is around assessment....and we have, as a union, had no input into what we are describing as a dumbing down of content....and thats the point i was making....the place to fight these changes is when the syllabi are being written

I fear for the profession....like you obviously do....and i fear for the future in the short term too because passions are being inflamed..

But i am conflicted.....

and struggling with the idea that i have to put my x in the box this week

and I'm not sure no is the best move this time
but i don't think yes is either

Hang on, the music syllabus is written? Since when??!

evolving_doors

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Hang on, the music syllabus is written? Since when??!

It's in the same phase 4 group as History and Geography IIRC.
Final draft is going out for last public "input" in the next few months. Then it's in-services from Sept 2017 on, then Start 2018 for first exam in 2021.

It would appear that the JC music practical will still remain examinable by the SEC.. unlike our unfortunate colleagues in the Languages department. That's unfair in my books. I suppose you couldn't be accompanying your own student and assessing them at the same time... not yet anyway.

Does JC Home-ec currently get examined by the SEC?

TheDriver

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It's in the same phase 4 group as History and Geography IIRC.
Final draft is going out for last public "input" in the next few months. Then it's in-services from Sept 2017 on, then Start 2018 for first exam in 2021.

It would appear that the JC music practical will still remain examinable by the SEC.. unlike our unfortunate colleagues in the Languages department. That's unfair in my books. I suppose you couldn't be accompanying your own student and assessing them at the same time... not yet anyway.

Does JC Home-ec currently get examined by the SEC?

Yep, they send someone around to look at projects and watch the cooking

TheDriver

Education matters wrote: »

There is nothing to say it can't be above 40 but we need to remember that as of next year every single teacher who is involved with JC will have 40 minutes knocked off their timetable. So a teacher with full hours will only teach 21 hours 20 minutes. That will be difficult to implement if using anything more than 40 minute slots .

Except we are still awaiting official confirmation of this. SAme as the second Deputy for schools over 700 students. Lots of budget announcements but no official sanctions as of yet.

mirrorwall14

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It's in the same phase 4 group as History and Geography IIRC.
Final draft is going out for last public "input" in the next few months. Then it's in-services from Sept 2017 on, then Start 2018 for first exam in 2021.

It would appear that the JC music practical will still remain examinable by the SEC.. unlike our unfortunate colleagues in the Languages department. That's unfair in my books. I suppose you couldn't be accompanying your own student and assessing them at the same time... not yet anyway.

Does JC Home-ec currently get examined by the SEC?

I knew it wasn't published yet! That makes more sense. I wrote an epic essay on the last submission for public input lol.

Yeah at least there is that. it would have been ludicrous. Vast majority of students doing 50% practical at LC and wouldn't have been examined by anyone but their teacher every-it just wouldn't have worked

r93kaey5p2izun

TheDriver wrote: »

Except we are still awaiting official confirmation of this. SAme as the second Deputy for schools over 700 students. Lots of budget announcements but no official sanctions as of yet.

It is officially confirmed in a Dept Circular though, unlike the announcement of the extra DP which was just a budget announcement. Schools may not have received sanction for the increased PTR required to implement this change, or the increased financial allocation for ETBs to pay for it, but it is further along in the process than the announcement re DPs.

Education matters

TheDriver wrote: »

Except we are still awaiting official confirmation of this. SAme as the second Deputy for schools over 700 students. Lots of budget announcements but no official sanctions as of yet.

It is sanctioned, circular 24/2016. Out since April last year and being implemented in TUI schools.

TheDriver

Education matters wrote: »

It is sanctioned, circular 24/2016. Out since April last year and being implemented in TUI schools.

Implemented from next Sept once we get the go ahead and the allocations

r93kaey5p2izun

TheDriver wrote: »

Implemented from next Sept once we get the go ahead and the allocations

The go ahead is in the circular. The circular is already in effect regarding professional time for English/Science/Business teachers and whole school closures for CPD. You might be awaiting finances but I don't think it's accurate to say we are awaiting confirmation and comparing it to the DP announcement.

maude6868

No vote cast and posted today

Chancer3001

95% voting no in my school

acequion

Chancer3001 wrote: »

95% voting no in my school

Delighted to hear that, you're giving me hope.

judeboy101

Chancer3001 wrote: »

95% voting no in my school

Unless they all showed you their ballot papers id take that with 5mg of salt.

dory

Are we sure the DP thing hasn't been fully sanctioned? Our principal annouced it and has reminded us about it today. We thought it was all ready to go.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

Unless they all showed you their ballot papers id take that with 5mg of salt.

But why would people lie? Granted you'll have the few everywhere who talk out of both sides of their mouth but I think most teachers are fairly open about how they're voting. Besides when you work beside people you know them and you know or have a pretty good idea of where they stand on such matters.

doc_17

The additional DPs will be recruited in the summer in ETB schools.

In the vote. I think it'll sneak through. It'll be wile tight though.

Inspector Coptoor

Was at a very long branch meeting tonight.

Got clarification on a few points and I'll run the ballot in school on Thursday.

Hoping to be able to convince the majority of our staff to vote no.
I got a few points of clarification this evening that I was happy with.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

But why would people lie? Granted you'll have the few everywhere who talk out of both sides of their mouth but I think most teachers are fairly open about how they're voting. Besides when you work beside people you know them and you know or have a pretty good idea of where they stand on such matters.

Because its the "in" thing to be all cool and rebel-like. But in the privacy of the ballot box that little voice whispers " I could buy that new v8 Dyson handheld if I vote yes"

mtoutlemonde

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because its the "in" thing to be all cool and rebel-like. But in the privacy of the ballot box that little voice whispers " I could buy that new v8 Dyson handheld if I vote yes"

Yes you might be able to buy it, but you won't be able to use it during the week when you've been working all day and have to sit for two hours in pointless meetings