Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

SligoBrewer

Please don't sell us out. Please vote no.

judeboy101

Do

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Yes you might be able to buy it, but you won't be able to use it during the week when you've been working all day and have to sit for two hours in pointless meetings

Oh I know that. Its hard to get ppl to think about how their free time will be worth more in years to come than a few quid in their pockets.

Marymidlands

At my school Asti meeting the majority voted yes. Older members of staff reckoned we would be left at the gates and government weren't for turning. Even our SS reckoned a yes vote was the only way to go. I read the literature and was still undecided. I eventually voted no but think the minority in my school. Most thinking only in the short term.

coillsaille

dory wrote: »

Are we sure the DP thing hasn't been fully sanctioned? Our principal annouced it and has reminded us about it today. We thought it was all ready to go.

Same in our place, voluntary ASTI school. Principal sent out an email yesterday announcing that we had been approved for the second DP post. I was sure I read somewhere after the budget that in voluntary schools it was contingent on us joining the LRA. Can anyone here clarify?

P.S. Vote No. This is not the time to cave and not the deal to accept. We will get a better deal if we hold fast.

Edit: Got clarification on the second DP from the principal. It seems the DES have been told to cop on and that it's no longer connected to LRA.

SligoBrewer

Marymidlands wrote: »

At my school Asti meeting the majority voted yes. Older members of staff reckoned we would be left at the gates and government weren't for turning. Even our SS reckoned a yes vote was the only way to go. I read the literature and was still undecided. I eventually voted no but think the minority in my school. Most thinking only in the short term.

Is there any LPTs in your school?

judeboy101

I'm thinking a 58% / 42% yes/no. I hope I'm wrong I've been texting/emailing everyone one I know from my dip class etc but I have a bad feeling about this.

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm thinking a 58% / 42% yes/no. I hope I'm wrong I've been texting/emailing everyone one I know from my dip class etc but I have a bad feeling about this.

Reading all the comments on the latest Asti Facebook post would back this up
Mainly LPTs as well

maude6868

km79 wrote: »

Reading all the comments on the latest Asti Facebook post would back this up
Mainly LPTs as well

So disheartening to read. I'm sickened to even think of it but I'd say the tide has definitely turned and I'd be afraid of an even bigger yes majority. Are retired teachers voting this time and did they vote the last time?

Moody_mona

High NO turnout in my school today. I actually think principle and pride had a lot to do with it - how bad would it look/be if we gave up now. Maybe not the right reason but every no vote counts!

feardeas

I wouldn't be sure of any outcome TBH. Not at all. I'm a yes and I feel that the school I work in could be hugely yes. I've spoken to no one definitely rejecting including LPT. Mind you most LPT teachers in my school are not in the union but sin ceist eile.

As for why, a definite sense nothing more will be gained, the dept mean business and a sense that the consequences of no are harsh.

However I see 80 / 20 as a huge margin to overturn and from my point of view would be very worried that it won't. That will be music to most people here.

2011abc

Guys can we keep it positive for the No's if that makes sense .I may be an ole cynic / conspiracy theorist but the negativity and "Oh I'm going to vote no but everyone in my Staffroom is going to vote yes " talk at best sounds like FG support and it has been proven conclusively that governments have had their minnions post on fora such as these ( IP addresses even traced to govt buildings )

mtoutlemonde

2011abc wrote: »

Guys can we keep it positive for the No's if that makes sense .I may be an ole cynic / conspiracy theorist but the negativity and "Oh I'm going to vote no but everyone in my Staffroom is going to vote yes " talk at best sounds like FG support and it has been proven conclusively that governments have had their minnions post on fora such as these ( IP addresses even traced to govt buildings )

I'm voting No but have heard that union reps are urging for a yes vote at union meetings. What's going on? Why are they sending texts to vote No and saying the opposite at branch meetings?

Marymidlands

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Marymidlands wrote: »

At my school Asti meeting the majority voted yes. Older members of staff reckoned we would be left at the gates and government weren't for turning. Even our SS reckoned a yes vote was the only way to go. I read the literature and was still undecided. I eventually voted no but think the minority in my school. Most thinking only in the short term.

Is there any LPTs in your school?

Yes there are lots. All kept quiet and didn't speak. Was talking to a group of them afterwards and were quite resigned to voting yes.

acequion

Marymidlands wrote: »

At my school Asti meeting the majority voted yes. Older members of staff reckoned we would be left at the gates and government weren't for turning. Even our SS reckoned a yes vote was the only way to go. I read the literature and was still undecided. I eventually voted no but think the minority in my school. Most thinking only in the short term.

The bit emboldened makes my blood boil! :mad: While I can understand some of the arguments for voting Yes and sympathise with others, the above is pure and utter cowardice! Shame on these older [but no way wiser] cushily established teachers!

Marymidlands

acequion wrote: »

Marymidlands wrote: »

At my school Asti meeting the majority voted yes. Older members of staff reckoned we would be left at the gates and government weren't for turning. Even our SS reckoned a yes vote was the only way to go. I read the literature and was still undecided. I eventually voted no but think the minority in my school. Most thinking only in the short term.

The bit emboldened makes my blood boil! :mad: While I can understand some of the arguments for voting Yes and sympathise with others, the above is pure and utter cowardice! Shame on these older [but no way wiser] cushily established teachers!

Absolutely agree. All waiting to retire. Younger teachers are too concerned about CIDs etc to actually say anything. Not sure that many of them actually read material given to them. My biggest issue was the Rep who was saying vote yes was our only option.

evolving_doors

Is this the third time we're being asked to vote on the same thing?

MrJones1973

judeboy101 wrote: »

Because its the "in" thing to be all cool and rebel-like. But in the privacy of the ballot box that little voice whispers " I could buy that new v8 Dyson handheld if I vote yes"

That made me laugh the Dyson bit

evolving_doors

So it's into the public admonition game and naming individual schools.
The Irish Times (dept press office! ) have named individual ASTI schools who have been rapped on the knuckles by English subject inspections for not complying with the new JC.
To make their titles even more titillating they've selected 'FEE PAYING SCHOOLS' ( although they should check their grammar as schools don't 'pay' fees they 'charge' them. )
Theirs a clock ticking down and the Dept. machine is beginning to ratchet up to get the new JC across the line.

Interesting the Irish times never mentioned the positive aspects to the teaching which took place in the school (according to the inspectors report).

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So it's into the public admonition game and naming individual schools.
The Irish Times (dept press office! ) have named individual ASTI schools who have been rapped on the knuckles by English subject inspections for not complying with the new JC.
To make their titles even more titillating they've selected 'FEE PAYING SCHOOLS' ( although they should check their grammar as schools don't 'pay' fees they 'charge' them. )
Theirs a clock ticking down and the Dept. machine is beginning to ratchet up to get the new JC across the line.

Interesting the Irish times never mentioned the positive aspects to the teaching which took place in the school (according to the inspectors report).

Id sell my soul to the dark lord himself for a no vote, just to spite Bruton and the mandarins in the dept.

picturehangup

i am voting 'no'. Already sent, however more of our staff are leaning towards 'Yes'.
TD's have just given themselves a nice little raise of some 15, 000 euro, not a word about that here so far.
Gardai have been granted extra-special treatment... fxxk that. We need to stand up and be counted.

cheekojuls

I think the comparison to An Garda Siochana is a little unfair. They work is much more hostile and unpleasant conditions, and have little opportunity to earn extra income. They have also been denied access to the industrial relations machinery for too long.

This is not to suggest that teachers have it easy. Many do a great job under horrible conditions. But the comparison with An Garda Siochana is unfair.

acequion

cheekojuls wrote: »

I think the comparison to An Garda Siochana is a little unfair. They work is much more hostile and unpleasant conditions, and have little opportunity to earn extra income. They have also been denied access to the industrial relations machinery for too long.

This is not to suggest that teachers have it easy. Many do a great job under horrible conditions. But the comparison with An Garda Siochana is unfair.

I don't think it's so unfair cheekojuls. Now don't get me wrong.I have nothing but respect for the Gardai and you're completely right that many,if not most, have it tough. I was also delighted that their campaign was by and large successful and fair play to them for sticking to their guns!

I think that poster is mainly expressing frustration at the contempt shown to teachers by the employer and that poster is so right in pointing out that in the midst of our campaign which seems to be quite divisive and bitter, TDs blithely award themselves a nice little pay increase. Contempt indeed.

However if we really must compare the different sectors, allow me to point this out. The Gardai need only do 30 years service. Teachers must do a full quarter, in ten years more.Also the second level teaching sector is the only sector in the entire public service who have had an enormous work change foisted upon them in the form of the new Junior Cycle. This impacts 50% to 75% of the average teacher's work. Expecting teachers to do that on top of all the other reforms really is too much.

picturehangup

acequion, that really is it in a nutshell, and thanks. I feel so tired of all of this, but I will NOT cave in. People such as the above poster really need to read this thread from the beginning to get their facts straight. I am sick to the teeth of having to defend the position of teachers to friends and family who cannot see, or refuse to see, beyond June, July and August. I am giving extra classes/grinds, intensive one -to -one, in my own time as many of my students have decided to pursue my subject in College, meaning that I need to help them prepare for interview/exam on top of everything else, as college-entry type of material not always covered in LC, hence, they need extra. I have no problem with this, and many of my colleagues do the same, but I really object to this profession being taken for a ride, with the constant eroding of terms/conditions/salary/increase in workload/reform, need I go on, an ill-informed public, distorted coverage in the media, etc. I can only hope that all ASTI members will stand firm on this. We are being bullied, they are trying to wear us down with repeated balloting, and we need a consistent NO vote. End of. I am very angry with how all of this is turning out, and I really resent doing S and S FOR FLIPPING FREE, when I am trying my damndest to be as 'productive' as this government want us to be.

MrJones1973

Don't waste your time talking to non teachers on this thread. Most hate trade unions anyway. As for the guards they held the state to randsome pure and simple. There is legal randsome and illegal randsome ( they skirted along this line ) if you follow but at least they had the balls to do it unlike our crowd. We ain't as valuable as the guards but a few weeks of a strike would have turned out case. The mother's in blackrock would have been up in arms
Anyway best of luck next week

Mr Whom

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Don't waste your time talking to non teachers on this thread. Most hate trade unions anyway. As for the guards they held the state to randsome pure and simple. There is legal randsome and illegal randsome ( they skirted along this line ) if you follow but at least they had the balls to do it unlike our crowd. We ain't as valuable as the guards but a few weeks of a strike would have turned out case. The mother's in blackrock would have been up in arms
Anyway best of luck next week

Wow ! I hope you're not teaching my kids English with grammar and spelling like that.

acequion

As the ballot reaches its end I would dearly love to have even a hint of whether to expect a Yes or a No. Now there are quite a few posters here who seem to love predicting doom and gloom. No offence lads and I've already fought with ye over it and got my knuckles rapped in the process, and maybe it's yer way of preparing for the worst. So I don't want that again. I'm basically asking for genuine predictions based on real and anecdotal evidence.

My prediction: I honestly don't know. I think it's very close and could go either way. It's not like an election where you have opinion polls and exit polls so it's really hard to gauge. It could even be a comfortable Yes or No win in the end. I think this one, of all the recent ballots, is the hardest to call and I guess I'm trying to steel myself.

The Yes gets a head start from principals and deputies,the majority of whom will vote Yes. Now again I'm not trying to offend anybody as I well know there are also No people in the management ranks. I have also heard of retired principals voting Yes. Do all retired teachers have a vote here?

A lot of young teachers looking for quicker CIDs, LPT's attracted by the few extra coppers on offer and teachers nearing retirement wanting to get out with the best deal for themselves,will also vote Yes. But indeed, not all.

So that leaves the great bulk of teachers in the middle,roughly between the ages of 35 and 60. That is where I think, this will be won or lost.This cohort have been teaching for a while and have seen the destruction of conditions and can also see through the window dressing of the new JC. Many would be at the stage where they no longer get a yearly increment, they have families and bitterly resent CP hours and the forced SnS.

While others in this cohort no longer have the appetite to fight or no longer have the balls to fight or maybe just feel we can't get anywhere by resisting, we're on our own etc etc. Others will have lost faith in the union after the events of last November. Obviously I completely disagree with them and want to give them a good shaking but am just trying to rationalise it.

Still others in this cohort will be tempted by the short term coppers and just won't look at the long term picture. And indeed others in very small schools will be understandably terrified of redundancy.

But it was a 80% No majority in the last ballot. Will that really be wiped out? There are a lot of very committed No people and a lot of very persuasive No people in commanding positions,such as branch leaders, CEC and SC reps and school stewards. But then again quite a number of these people have now swung to Yes.

And there's also those who despise this FG Govt and their policies. It shouldn't be political but when our paymasters are from political parties,politics do play a part.

My own school would have returned a decent No majority.I got in touch with friends and collegues all over to country who all said the same about their schools. But every one of them also knew anecdotally of majority Yes schools and not one feels able to call the result.

So that's why I'm asking you guys. What is the vote in your school and other schools in your region? TUI people may also have some information? The position in dual union schools would be interesting to know.

In any case we will all know for sure next week, next Thursday, I think. Mrwhite advised those of us psychologically invested to detach a bit, but easier said than done. if I still don't know the result by 4pm next Thursdsay, I will go home and hide under the bed in fear. :eek::eek::eek:

km79

acequion wrote: »

As the ballot reaches its end I would dearly love to have even a hint of whether to expect a Yes or a No. Now there are quite a few posters here who seem to love predicting doom and gloom. No offence lads and I've already fought with ye over it and got my knuckles rapped in the process, and maybe it's yer way of preparing for the worst. So I don't want that again. I'm basically asking for genuine predictions based on real and anecdotal evidence.

My prediction: I honestly don't know. I think it's very close and could go either way. It's not like an election where you have opinion polls and exit polls so it's really hard to gauge. It could even be a comfortable Yes or No win in the end. I think this one, of all the recent ballots, is the hardest to call and I guess I'm trying to steel myself.

The Yes gets a head start from principals and deputies,the majority of whom will vote Yes. Now again I'm not trying to offend anybody as I well know there are also No people in the management ranks. I have also heard of retired principals voting Yes. Do all retired teachers have a vote here?

A lot of young teachers looking for quicker CIDs, LPT's attracted by the few extra coppers on offer and teachers nearing retirement wanting to get out with the best deal for themselves,will also vote Yes. But indeed, not all.

So that leaves the great bulk of teachers in the middle,roughly between the ages of 35 and 60. That is where I think, this will be won or lost.This cohort have been teaching for a while and have seen the destruction of conditions and can also see through the window dressing of the new JC. Many would be at the stage where they no longer get a yearly increment, they have families and bitterly resent CP hours and the forced SnS.

While others in this cohort no longer have the appetite to fight or no longer have the balls to fight or maybe just feel we can't get anywhere by resisting, we're on our own etc etc. Others will have lost faith in the union after the events of last November. Obviously I completely disagree with them and want to give them a good shaking but am just trying to rationalise it.

Still others in this cohort will be tempted by the short term coppers and just won't look at the long term picture. And indeed others in very small schools will be understandably terrified of redundancy.

But it was a 80% No majority in the last ballot. Will that really be wiped out? There are a lot of very committed No people and a lot of very persuasive No people in commanding positions,such as branch leaders, CEC and SC reps and school stewards. But then again quite a number of these people have now swung to Yes.

And there's also those who despise this FG Govt and their policies. It shouldn't be political but when our paymasters are from political parties,politics do play a part.

My own school would have returned a decent No majority.I got in touch with friends and collegues all over to country who all said the same about their schools. But every one of them also knew anecdotally of majority Yes schools and not one feels able to call the result.

So that's why I'm asking you guys. What is the vote in your school and other schools in your region? TUI people may also have some information? The position in dual union schools would be interesting to know.

In any case we will all know for sure next week, next Thursday, I think. Mrwhite advised those of us psychologically invested to detach a bit, but easier said than done. if I still don't know the result by 4pm next Thursdsay, I will go home and hide under the bed in fear. :eek::eek::eek:

I think it's going to be very very tight either way
55/45 one way or the other
80/20 is a lot for the YES side to overcome BUT I think turnout will be much lower this time as a lot of people are genuinely conflicted
They do not want months and months more of fighting. They are worn down
BUT
Do no want to vote yes

So just won't vote

Our staff room is still NO but not by the massive majority of last time
And we were a massive NO for final HRA ballot which was not reflected nationally

So I'll go 55/45 yes

evolving_doors

I'd be surprised if the Yes cohort increased by 31%....

I think the ballot was low key enough to ensure the undecided or uninformed would turn out.

Although folk were fairly circumspect in our school for this ballot ... so maybe they're changing to a yes but not mentioning it, for fear of some more militant no voters catching wind of it.

Edit: actually I don't know what way it'd go.

But you can be guaranteed that if the no's have it by a whisker, then their will be the usual media talking about division in the union and 'members leaving in their droves'

Anyhow... the ASTI will just keep on asking members to vote on the same thing until a yes arrives.

acequion

snip...oK back on topic, report stuff etc. Member has been washed
Mod

feardeas

My school would probably be a resounding yes. I'd say 80/20.

As for national all I'd wager would be a close enough result. I just wonder about the future either way. Yes will probably mean regrouping of fightback for the next battle. No will mean lots of people questioning if the union truly represents our view, as would yes I guess.

In a nutshell this whole thing has been damaging and I think the sooner there is one union for post primary teachers the better.