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Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***
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My school would probably be a resounding yes. I'd say 80/20.
As for national all I'd wager would be a close enough result. I just wonder about the future either way. Yes will probably mean regrouping of fightback for the next battle. No will mean lots of people questioning if the union truly represents our view, as would yes I guess.
In a nutshell this whole thing has been damaging and I think the sooner there is one union for post primary teachers the better.
One union is not going to happen any time soon, unfortunately,desirable,even urgent and all as this is. And it's not the issue of the moment either.
I'm also not sure about a fightback if this passes.A lot of warriors,perhaps myself included,will have been dealt a fatal blow as will the credibility of the union going forward. Well, perhaps not fatal, as these things go around in cycles as we see with political parties, but a bad enough blow as to render it meaningless for quite some time.
Out of curiosity,can I ask if your school steward is a strong yes person? I'm not implying that ye can't make up yer own minds and I know you've always been consistent, but the view of the school stewards is playing a huge role now that we have school based ballots.0 -
My school would probably be a resounding yes. I'd say 80/20.
As for national all I'd wager would be a close enough result. I just wonder about the future either way. Yes will probably mean regrouping of fightback for the next battle. No will mean lots of people questioning if the union truly represents our view, as would yes I guess.
In a nutshell this whole thing has been damaging and I think the sooner there is one union for post primary teachers the better.
Oh and can I also ask if ye were a strong yes school last time as well?0 -
As the minister might say I'm glad you asked. Last time I think we would have been close leaning towards being against the action but I'm talking by a vote or two.
The rep would have little influence although the vibe was to accept. TBH what nailed it was Nuacht. It was an unambiguous statement of consequences. More than one colleague said it was the first time they read the information from HQ and not just go with the recommendation.
I know we're on opposite sides but thanks for being polite. I hope I've been as well.0 -
I thought the graph in an nuacht that showed the pay disparity was clear. It should have been front and centre though.0
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As the ballot reaches its end I would dearly love to have even a hint of whether to expect a Yes or a No. Now there are quite a few posters here who seem to love predicting doom and gloom. No offence lads and I've already fought with ye over it and got my knuckles rapped in the process, and maybe it's yer way of preparing for the worst. So I don't want that again. I'm basically asking for genuine predictions based on real and anecdotal evidence.
My prediction: I honestly don't know. I think it's very close and could go either way. It's not like an election where you have opinion polls and exit polls so it's really hard to gauge. It could even be a comfortable Yes or No win in the end. I think this one, of all the recent ballots, is the hardest to call and I guess I'm trying to steel myself.
The Yes gets a head start from principals and deputies,the majority of whom will vote Yes. Now again I'm not trying to offend anybody as I well know there are also No people in the management ranks. I have also heard of retired principals voting Yes. Do all retired teachers have a vote here?
A lot of young teachers looking for quicker CIDs, LPT's attracted by the few extra coppers on offer and teachers nearing retirement wanting to get out with the best deal for themselves,will also vote Yes. But indeed, not all.
So that leaves the great bulk of teachers in the middle,roughly between the ages of 35 and 60. That is where I think, this will be won or lost.This cohort have been teaching for a while and have seen the destruction of conditions and can also see through the window dressing of the new JC. Many would be at the stage where they no longer get a yearly increment, they have families and bitterly resent CP hours and the forced SnS.
While others in this cohort no longer have the appetite to fight or no longer have the balls to fight or maybe just feel we can't get anywhere by resisting, we're on our own etc etc. Others will have lost faith in the union after the events of last November. Obviously I completely disagree with them and want to give them a good shaking but am just trying to rationalise it.
Still others in this cohort will be tempted by the short term coppers and just won't look at the long term picture. And indeed others in very small schools will be understandably terrified of redundancy.
But it was a 80% No majority in the last ballot. Will that really be wiped out? There are a lot of very committed No people and a lot of very persuasive No people in commanding positions,such as branch leaders, CEC and SC reps and school stewards. But then again quite a number of these people have now swung to Yes.
And there's also those who despise this FG Govt and their policies. It shouldn't be political but when our paymasters are from political parties,politics do play a part.
My own school would have returned a decent No majority.I got in touch with friends and collegues all over to country who all said the same about their schools. But every one of them also knew anecdotally of majority Yes schools and not one feels able to call the result.
So that's why I'm asking you guys. What is the vote in your school and other schools in your region? TUI people may also have some information? The position in dual union schools would be interesting to know.
In any case we will all know for sure next week, next Thursday, I think. Mrwhite advised those of us psychologically invested to detach a bit, but easier said than done. if I still don't know the result by 4pm next Thursdsay, I will go home and hide under the bed in fear. :eek::eek::eek:
58/42 yes/no .the nuacht was all the proof I needed that the leadership were speaking out of both sides of their mouths. At least pat king et al had the decency to campaign against the will of SC/CEC . The current crew were
Turned by dept that faithful weekend. I said this at last branch meeting and a lot were nodding with me. I hope to feck I'm wrong but in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar, "it's a trap!!!"0 -
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judeboy101 wrote: »58/42 yes/no .the nuacht was all the proof I needed that the leadership were speaking out of both sides of their mouths. At least pat king et al had the decency to campaign against the will of SC/CEC . The current crew were
Turned by dept that faithful weekend. I said this at last branch meeting and a lot were nodding with me. I hope to feck I'm wrong but in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar, "it's a trap!!!"
The "decency" to campaign against the will of the CEC! Come on!!!
I did ask for predictions based on real and anecdotal evidence,not more unfounded conspiracy theories.
"Turned by the Dept." I know for an absolute fact that that's a load of rubbish!
But as I said in my post I'm not interested in fighting with people,so I'm not getting into a tit for tat with you. Believe what you want!0 -
I wrote here this day last week and I thought i would return to the scene of the crime 1 week later
I agonised, and actually declined the ballot paper when my school steward offered it to me the first time they saw me this week....but eventually caught them out, put the x in the no box and sealed up.
However in a school that was almost totally no it has swung about 75/25
But what i noticed during the week was a civility among the members that gives me hope that we will survive as a group....whatever is announced next Thursday.
Deciding factor for the yes seems to have been the cid situation for the younger members......something permanent even if its a lower scale
I just hope that if its a yes....then the next pay negotiations will begin and end with the sentence that was conceived by the ASTI....equal work for equal pay.....a damning indictment of a republic in 2017
Thank you all for the assistance your postings were in helping frame the debate and showing solidarity with the youngest( or maybe newest is a better description as i think of my staffroom) members of the union0 -
The "decency" to campaign against the will of the CEC! Come on!!!
I did ask for predictions based on real and anecdotal evidence,not more unfounded conspiracy theories.
"Turned by the Dept." I know for an absolute fact that that's a load of rubbish!
But as I said in my post I'm not interested in fighting with people,so I'm not getting into a tit for tat with you. Believe what you want!
*alternative fact, FTFY ;-)0 -
Our school I think is split very evenly on the issue but hard to be sure as a number of people are staying much quieter on this ballot than they have had on previous ones. I would be strongly in the no camp but unfortunately am starting to believe from talking to people in other schools that the national vote may go Yes on a narrow majority.
If this is the case I do again regrettably think it would put me in a position where my Union no longer speaks for me, as I do understand some on the Yes side will feel if the result goes the other way.
I am school steward and at meetings have put across my views very clearly as to why I think a No vote should be carried while at the same time respecting all other positions and at least in our school i have to say it hasn't become bitter and divisive between colleagues. There are people in our school who will vote yes because 1. they are in their 2nd year in the school and will get a CID 2. There are a few who will take the opportunity to opt out of S and S as they have 15 years service 3. there are a few who have been on pay plateaus and who will vote yes as they will gain financially if increments are unfrozen. I disagree with them voting yes but can do so in a respectful manner and will not fall out with anybody over this issue.
My main arguments against would be that we voted separately on three separate occasions 1. Against Junior Cert as it stands 2. To support Lesser Paid teachers 3. to withdraw from Croke Park hours. This deal brings little or no progress on these issues. 1. No consideration of reasons for opposition to J. Cert. 2. The change of 5 hours to a maximum of 8 to be on a non whole school basis, but his s applied very differently by management depending on where you are. 3. Okay there is a move towards partial restoration of LPT pay but for me this deal just further enshrines inequality. These are the reasons I could not vote yes but whatever the outcome it will be a democratic decision and we as a profession will move on and continue to do our best as we always do for the students in front of us.0 -
themusicman wrote: »Deciding factor for the yes seems to have been the cid situation for the younger members......something permanent even if its a lower scale
I am so angry at this attitude that CIDs are a substitute for equality.
I spoke out about this in our school, I think we sent back a resounding no vote. Big school. Hope this helps and glad to have done my part.
I hate the Government and anyone who accepts that anything less than equality is acceptable for their colleagues.0 -
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Our school I think is split very evenly on the issue but hard to be sure as a number of people are staying much quieter on this ballot than they have had on previous ones. I would be strongly in the no camp but unfortunately am starting to believe from talking to people in other schools that the national vote may go Yes on a narrow majority.
If this is the case I do again regrettably think it would put me in a position where my Union no longer speaks for me, as I do understand some on the Yes side will feel if the result goes the other way.
I am school steward and at meetings have put across my views very clearly as to why I think a No vote should be carried while at the same time respecting all other positions and at least in our school i have to say it hasn't become bitter and divisive between colleagues. There are people in our school who will vote yes because 1. they are in their 2nd year in the school and will get a CID 2. There are a few who will take the opportunity to opt out of S and S as they have 15 years service 3. there are a few who have been on pay plateaus and who will vote yes as they will gain financially if increments are unfrozen. I disagree with them voting yes but can do so in a respectful manner and will not fall out with anybody over this issue.
My main arguments against would be that we voted separately on three separate occasions 1. Against Junior Cert as it stands 2. To support Lesser Paid teachers 3. to withdraw from Croke Park hours. This deal brings little or no progress on these issues. 1. No consideration of reasons for opposition to J. Cert. 2. The change of 5 hours to a maximum of 8 to be on a non whole school basis, but his s applied very differently by management depending on where you are. 3. Okay there is a move towards partial restoration of LPT pay but for me this deal just further enshrines inequality. These are the reasons I could not vote yes but whatever the outcome it will be a democratic decision and we as a profession will move on and continue to do our best as we always do for the students in front of us.
I'd agree with most of that except the bolded part.
The last 2 times were also a democratic decision ....and nothing had changed, but yet another vote was imposed.
I fail to see why the union have re-re-balloted their members. What mandate did they have to do so?
Was there something new on the table since the last vote.
Those 'talks' which caused the action to be called off were a complete charade and purely designed to get ASTI into voting yet again to jump them into the 'only show in town'.0 -
I'd agree with most of that except the bolded part.
The last 2 times were also a democratic decision ....and nothing had changed, but yet another vote was imposed.
I fail to see why the union have re-re-balloted their members. What mandate did they have to do so?
Was there something new on the table since the last vote.
Those 'talks' which caused the action to be called off were a complete charade and purely designed to get ASTI into voting yet again to jump them into the 'only show in town'.
Yeah would agree with your statement generally as well. i suppose I used the word democratic in the sense that whatever the result it will have come from a vote of the membership and hopefully on a good turnout.
I do agree with you that the talks were a complete sham, sure they had to be when the TUI and INTO were also in on them from the start. However once the ASTI went in to these talks they were always going to result in a re-ballot of members. In terms of a mandate to do so once Standing Committee didn't reject the offer, CEC were never likely to and it would get to the members. Like you I am disheartened that we are even voting on a proposal that offers nothing to us and now even has the Junior Cert thrown in on top.0 -
Irish solution to an Irish problem.0
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Resounding Nos, huge swings to Yes. This is like a classic match between Kerry and Dublin, feckin nail biting!
I will be bitterly disappointed if it's a Yes but I do understand young people wanting their CIDs,even if I disapprove of them abandoning the campaign for equal pay to do so. Self interest always comes first. And the same will happen if teachers are marking their own pupils, that's guaranteed.
As for people giving out about Nuacht,I've had another read through it and all I can say is that it's fair. It gives the plain unvarnished facts and lets people make up their own minds while advising a No. That's democracy. To conceal the truth would be wrong.
But do please keep telling us how your schools are voting. It's very interesting to hear.0 -
Half and half in my school, youngest teachers voting yes and oldest teachers too, middle aged teachers will return a No vote.0
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No from me and I'm not CID
However lots in the staff are going yes by their talk. Think it was a lack of a clear plan that agitated them most
Rep seemed to be leaning towards a yes personally too though she did try to point out consequences for both sides0 -
happywithlife wrote: »No from me and I'm not CID
However lots in the staff are going yes by their talk. Think it was a lack of a clear plan that agitated them most
Rep seemed to be leaning towards a yes personally too though she did try to point out consequences for both sides
That's so annoying to hear when there is a clear plan clearly posted on the asti website. Apart from closing the schools and going all out,which most don't want and nobody can afford, the only plan is work to rule which is more effective than a lot of people realise as it's frustrating the Govt no end and making our working life a lot easier in the process.Ed Byrne spoke very clearly about that when he came to our branch.It should have been video recorded and accessible to all members.
But fair play to you for the No especially when you're not CID.0 -
Mrwhite we know you're not voting but you're still a teacher, right? So whether you like it or not, you're still part of all this.
But what way did the vote go in your school?0 -
Mrwhite we know you're not voting but you're still a teacher, right? So whether you like it or not, you're still part of all this.
But what way did the vote go in your school?
Think more have shifted to yes. But I haven't asked that many people because of my status. But our rep thinks it will be a no by 52-48
Just texted my rep he said strong no vote from our staff. We tend to be a militant bunch though0 -
That's so annoying to hear when there is a clear plan clearly posted on the asti website. Apart from closing the schools and going all out,which most don't want and nobody can afford, the only plan is work to rule which is more effective than a lot of people realise as it's frustrating the Govt no end and making our working life a lot easier in the process.Ed Byrne spoke very clearly about that when he came to our branch.It should have been video recorded and accessible to all members.
But fair play to you for the No especially when you're not CID.
Acequion, you say that a work to rule is annoying the Dept. I wouldn't be sure. I honestly do not believe the Dept care what is or indeed is not happening in schools so long as they are open. Ask anyone not involved in teaching but the only time the dispute was discussed in other workplaces over coffee, not to mind in the media was when the schools were closed and it discommoded parents. It is the same with any worker that provides a service to the public.
Now MrWhite, from his comments here, and I may not agree on much other than the day of the week it is but he is probably right in suggesting that a prolonged period of strike might be necessary to bring the employer to heel. I would be vehemently against it and the reality was the stomach was not there. Even if the S and S had not being in the pot people would not have stuck it for the seven days that were planned. As you say we can not afford to.
So in reality while there was a plan put forward many people, virtually everyone in my school saw it as being a strategy that would deliver nothing above and beyond what is in the document being voted on at the minute. I truly believe that, I hope the circumstance won't arise whereby that belief will be tested but it is possible that we will all see exactly how concerned the Dept are by work to rule after Thursday, my belief is they couldn't care less.0 -
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Essentially this is the third time you are being asked to vote on the same agreement. Nothing has changed. The block on JC will piss off the department in a major way no doubt that. A new public sector agreement just round the corner. The JC a ton of dumbing down. But it might swing yes for those who need a cash injection now and can't wait six months. I have a small family. Others are stretched. Though ultimately I'd advise anyone pinched financially to do grinds or something else. The money won't have multiple strings attached. Also it's cost of living that's crippling a lot of teachers and that's a bigger issue .0
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Acequion, you say that a work to rule is annoying the Dept. I wouldn't be sure. I honestly do not believe the Dept care what is or indeed is not happening in schools so long as they are open. Ask anyone not involved in teaching but the only time the dispute was discussed in other workplaces over coffee, not to mind in the media was when the schools were closed and it discommoded parents. It is the same with any worker that provides a service to the public.
Now MrWhite, from his comments here, and I may not agree on much other than the day of the week it is but he is probably right in suggesting that a prolonged period of strike might be necessary to bring the employer to heel. I would be vehemently against it and the reality was the stomach was not there. Even if the S and S had not being in the pot people would not have stuck it for the seven days that were planned. As you say we can not afford to.
So in reality while there was a plan put forward many people, virtually everyone in my school saw it as being a strategy that would deliver nothing above and beyond what is in the document being voted on at the minute. I truly believe that, I hope the circumstance won't arise whereby that belief will be tested but it is possible that we will all see exactly how concerned the Dept are by work to rule after Thursday, my belief is they couldn't care less.
Lots of assumptions here. I think 7 days would have been OK . Our staff fully behind that. You admit a long dispute was a good alternative but no stomach for it. That might be true but we are in self fulfilling prophecy land. You can be the proverbial frog on the frying pan. I wonder how many great reforms would get off the ground if people adopted a that's just the way it is attitude all the time0 -
Half and half in my school, youngest teachers voting yes and oldest teachers too, middle aged teachers will return a No vote.
Same in our place, but I think there may be enough of us in the 'squeezed middle' to return a No.... fingers, toes & everything else crossed that it's a no. If it's not then I will be cancelling my ASTI sub0 -
Same in our place, but I think there may be enough of us in the 'squeezed middle' to return a No.... fingers, toes & everything else crossed that it's a no. If it's not then I will be cancelling my ASTI sub
A lot of the squeezed middle are due increments and s and s and the 1000 euro
That may be enough to sway a good few despite saying that they voted No0 -
Acequion, you say that a work to rule is annoying the Dept. I wouldn't be sure. I honestly do not believe the Dept care what is or indeed is not happening in schools so long as they are open. Ask anyone not involved in teaching but the only time the dispute was discussed in other workplaces over coffee, not to mind in the media was when the schools were closed and it discommoded parents. It is the same with any worker that provides a service to the public.
Now MrWhite, from his comments here, and I may not agree on much other than the day of the week it is but he is probably right in suggesting that a prolonged period of strike might be necessary to bring the employer to heel. I would be vehemently against it and the reality was the stomach was not there. Even if the S and S had not being in the pot people would not have stuck it for the seven days that were planned. As you say we can not afford to.
So in reality while there was a plan put forward many people, virtually everyone in my school saw it as being a strategy that would deliver nothing above and beyond what is in the document being voted on at the minute. I truly believe that, I hope the circumstance won't arise whereby that belief will be tested but it is possible that we will all see exactly how concerned the Dept are by work to rule after Thursday, my belief is they couldn't care less.
feardeas, you're wrong there. This is not me saying that work to rule is annoying the Govt,this is coming straight from what Ed Byrne and Kieran Christie said. And there is no reason not to believe them as they are the ones who have met Dept reps something like 30 times over the past months. Can't remember how many times exactly,though they told us at CEC,but it's a lot,enough to get strong vibes. Unfortunately there seems to be big lack of information sharing and people are relying on heresay. And the fault of that lies squarely with ASTI head office. I've already said here and elsewhere more influential that Ed Byrne should be on videolink accessible to all members.
So here is what they said about work to rule:
1. CP hours. Have you ever noticed how utterly intransigent the Govt are in relation to those hours? Like how hard would it be to show a little good faith and reduce them in return for our cooperation? Well that is because they are afraid of contagion. They are afraid that the other unions, one by one might stop doing them too. Don't forget that the current state of the LRA is precarious. One bit of trouble from another union and the whole thing might collapse. So as long as we're not doing them they're nervous and that gives us bargaining power, which,if we show we mean business by saying No, will eventually be used to broker a better deal. That I guarantee you. All this talk of a "final offer" is because they smell blood, they know they have an excellent chance of getting their Yes.
2. Junior Cycle. Granted the curriculum has changed and subjects are being rolled out with new syllabi and granted too that there are positive elements.But the assessment cannot proceed as they wish without ASTI teachers on board and that is two thirds of Ireland's second level teachers. That is a lot. They cannot allow such a situation to continue indefinitely and anyone who will cave because of this hugely vindictive threat that they'll penalise the children really has no backbone.So again,while we have it we can use it to bargain with. Ok, they might legislate from the Dail floor and so force us to do it anyway. But contrary to you, I feel it is one worth pushing because overall that new Junior Cycle is not fit for purpose.
So it really is too simplistic to say that they just want the schools open. It really is not as black and white as that.0 -
A strong NO in my school of around 50 members. I would estimate around 8 Yes votes, which was older staff and management. I reckon the few non-CID staff in the place want a Yes vote but it's irrelevant as they didn't have a vote (despite them being approached about joining the union in Sept and them saying they would join but then mysteriously not appearing on the register).0
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coillsaille wrote: »A strong NO in my school of around 50 members. I would estimate around 8 Yes votes, which was older staff and management. I reckon the few non-CID staff in the place want a Yes vote but it's irrelevant as they didn't have a vote (despite them being approached about joining the union in Sept and them saying they would join but then mysteriously not appearing on the register).
They could be lapsed members tbf. I know a few people who have been caught out.0 -
acequion wrote:feardeas, you're wrong there. This is not me saying that work to rule is annoying the Govt,this is coming straight from what Ed Byrne and Kieran Christie said. And there is no reason not to believe them as they are the ones who have met Dept reps something like 30 times over the past months. Can't remember how many times exactly,though they told us at CEC,but it's a lot,enough to get strong vibes. Unfortunately there seems to be big lack of information sharing and people are relying on heresay. And the fault of that lies squarely with ASTI head office. I've already said here and elsewhere more influential that Ed Byrne should be on videolink accessible to all members.acequion wrote:So here is what they said about work to rule:acequion wrote:1. CP hours. Have you ever noticed how utterly intransigent the Govt are in relation to those hours? Like how hard would it be to show a little good faith and reduce them in return for our cooperation? Well that is because they are afraid of contagion. They are afraid that the other unions, one by one might stop doing them too. Don't forget that the current state of the LRA is precarious. One bit of trouble from another union and the whole thing might collapse. So as long as we're not doing them they're nervous and that gives us bargaining power, which,if we show we mean business by saying No, will eventually be used to broker a better deal. That I guarantee you. All this talk of a "final offer" is because they smell blood, they know they have an excellent chance of getting their Yes.acequion wrote:2. Junior Cycle. Granted the curriculum has changed and subjects are being rolled out with new syllabi and granted too that there are positive elements.But the assessment cannot proceed as they wish without ASTI teachers on board and that is two thirds of Ireland's second level teachers. That is a lot. They cannot allow such a situation to continue indefinitely and anyone who will cave because of this hugely vindictive threat that they'll penalise the children really has no backbone.So again,while we have it we can use it to bargain with. Ok, they might legislate from the Dail floor and so force us to do it anyway. But contrary to you, I feel it is one worth pushing because overall that new Junior Cycle is not fit for purpose.acequion wrote:So it really is too simplistic to say that they just want the schools open. It really is not as black and white as that.
Neither of those gentlemen fill me with much confidence. However time will tell. If it is rejected every teacher in a voluntary school, union or not, will be very much hoping you're correct. And it would need to be rapid.0 -
After only narrowly deciding that it should go to ballot at all and recommending No, it would be a disaster for the ASTI if this were accepted and an outstanding win for the government. I think it'll be rejected but it will be a lot closer that the previous one. Given the margin was so large last time, they should have the numbers to hold out.
Is this ballot being conducted in the same way as the last one?0 -
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After only narrowly deciding that it should go to ballot at all and recommending No, it would be a disaster for the ASTI if this were accepted and an outstanding win for the government. I think it'll be rejected but it will be a lot closer that the previous one. Given the margin was so large last time, they should have the numbers to hold out.
Is this ballot being conducted in the same way as the last one?
Yes it's a school based ballot like last time. I can't see them ever going back to the previous balloting system as the turnouts are much higher under the current system.
I have my fingers crossed for a No result. I can accept some of the valid points that have been made criticising how we got into this situation (and of course the lockout mess). But we are where we are now and this is the worst possible time to back down. If we accept these proposals I really think we're done for as a trade union for quite some time. We would be regarded as toothless by the DES who would become even more bullish and forceful in their dealings with us.
P.S. What particularly worries me about this result is a couple of people saying in this thread that some school stewards have been advocating a Yes vote. That's not good for the ballot, or the union.0
This discussion has been closed.
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