Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

acequion

I had a bit of free time today and I took a look back at the thread around the time of our last ballot and dispute Sept- Nov 2016. The difference is quite staggering! There were way more contributors, many really militant members of the ASTI and way more posts and thanking of posts.

You would have to wonder where have all those impassioned posters gone? Left the union? Changed sides and are now voting for the agreement? Sick and tired of it all? There was a huge sense of momentum then and in hindsight mrwhite was right about a lot of things. One of those impassioned posters who has since disappeared said "This is one we have to win, if we don't we'll never win another."
Proverbial words.

A Yes result really would be a disaster.

km79

acequion wrote: »

I had a bit of free time today and I took a look back at the thread around the time of our last ballot and dispute Sept- Nov 2016. The difference is quite staggering! There were way more contributors, many really militant members of the ASTI and way more posts and thanking of posts.

You would have to wonder where have all those impassioned posters gone? Left the union? Changed sides and are now voting for the agreement? Sick and tired of it all? There was a huge sense of momentum then and in hindsight mrwhite was right about a lot of things. One of those impassioned posters who has since disappeared said "This is one we have to win, if we don't we'll never win another."
Proverbial words.

A Yes result really would be a disaster.

Sick and tired of it all for the most part
November was a disaster . There is no 2 ways about it. A shambles

acequion

km79 wrote: »

Sick and tired of it all for the most part
November was a disaster . There is no 2 ways about it. A shambles

I know km but it doesn't have to be fatal. A yes result would be.

feardeas

Yeah, I've been struck by the relative silence. Sick and tired of it, I'm in that category for sure. Think most that I know are the same.

Still uncertain about the result though.

Inspector Coptoor

I dropped off our ballots today in winetavern St.
Pretty much 100% turn out again.

Think we have gone from around 85-15 in the no camp to
55-45 in the No camp.

I hope No gets carried

Icsics

It's frightening how much depends on this result, we'll be completely at the mercy of the DES if it's a yes. Such a pity JC was rolled in with LPTs & CP hrs, we could be tied into all 3 & whatever DES can cook up with their JMB pals. Hopefully we'll have an indication 2mw eve, I can't stand the waiting!

acequion

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I dropped off our ballots today in winetavern St.
Pretty much 100% turn out again.

Think we have gone from around 85-15 in the no camp to
55-45 in the No camp.

I hope No gets carried

That's a 30% swing which is pretty much all that's needed nationally for a Yes result! But am happy to hear that your school is another No.

Icsics wrote: »

It's frightening how much depends on this result, we'll be completely at the mercy of the DES if it's a yes. Such a pity JC was rolled in with LPTs & CP hrs, we could be tied into all 3 & whatever DES can cook up with their JMB pals. Hopefully we'll have an indication 2mw eve, I can't stand the waiting!

Couldn't agree more Icsics. And I also hate the waiting especially when it really could go either way. But I doubt we'll know anything tomorrow. Doesn't the ballot only close tomorrow eve at 5.30? And sure we're never told anything during the ballot count.

feardeas wrote: »

Yeah, I've been struck by the relative silence. Sick and tired of it, I'm in that category for sure. Think most that I know are the same.

Still uncertain about the result though.

But your "sick and tired" people would be in the Yes camp anyway would they not feardeas? What worries me is how what the former No "sick and tired" people are voting!

judeboy101

Icsics wrote: »

It's frightening how much depends on this result, we'll be completely at the mercy of the DES if it's a yes. Such a pity JC was rolled in with LPTs & CP hrs, we could be tied into all 3 & whatever DES can cook up with their JMB pals. Hopefully we'll have an indication 2mw eve, I can't stand the waiting!

If its a no they might release it thurs but a yes might wait til Fri. I know a few schools had pt meetings /staff meetings planned for this fri/nxt Monday.if Asti release a yes vote Thurs those poor fools have extra wrk fri/monday.

Icsics

judeboy101 wrote: »

If its a no they might release it thurs but a yes might wait til Fri. I know a few schools had pt meetings /staff meetings planned for this fri/nxt Monday.if Asti release a yes vote Thurs those poor fools have extra wrk fri/monday.

We'll all be the poor fools if this is a yes. We've an inside school PT meeting next week & DES/JMB saying 'no loss to tuition time', going to end up with teachers supervising whole year groups.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

If its a no they might release it thurs but a yes might wait til Fri. I know a few schools had pt meetings /staff meetings planned for this fri/nxt Monday.if Asti release a yes vote Thurs those poor fools have extra wrk fri/monday.

But in all the recent ballots and there have been a lot,the result has always been announced in the afternoon /evening of the day after close of ballot. So that would be Thursday, whatever the result.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

But in all the recent ballots and there have been a lot,the result has always been announced in the afternoon /evening of the day after close of ballot. So that would be Thursday, whatever the result.

Can the asti not give us one more day of freedom;one more day to teach rather than judge: To educate rather than administrate; to leave when the bell goes, skipping out the doors with our students free from responsibility. Do we not at least deserve that last drop of the good life?

picturehangup

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I dropped off our ballots today in winetavern St.
Pretty much 100% turn out again.

Think we have gone from around 85-15 in the no camp to
55-45 in the No camp.

I hope No gets carried

I think this is what will be the outcome, though I do know that many of my own colleagues voted YES. The feeling was 'what, another ballot on the same thing?' Teachers are sick of it, feeling run into the ground and generally caving in.
After all, I think that it is the third vote on the same thing.
Those weeks of meeting with that mediator, were a complete waste of time, as they came up with the same deal paraphrased.
What the hell did they actually do in that room? They can keep balloting me all they want, but I for one will never waver, and I hope others will do the same. As for the threat of compulsory redundancy, it would and should be all -out strike like the Gardai. That, it would seem, is the only way to get results. We need to keep playing hard ball. I am in the 'NO' camp very firmly. We will know in less than 48 hours. Our salaries have been seriously cut, and have remained at all-time low levels since 2008, while we 'keep the recovery going'. Mortgages, car-loans and child-care costs, keep rising.
Now is not the time to be weak. Let 'em keep firing ballots at us all they like. Only takes a second to put pen to paper.

MrJones1973

The only thing you can be certain of is No vote will be down. Minimum by 20% percent down. I hope it's a no vote but let's keep in mind LR will be dead by June and a new agreement in place. I have cautioned many posters here to take a break and fear the worst. That way you can be pleasantly surprised. You have to ask if you have changed any views here ?
More and more this thread resembles a support group for union addicts. I say this not in condemnation but in fear .

feardeas

acequion wrote:

But your "sick and tired" people would be in the Yes camp anyway would they not feardeas? What worries me is how what the former No "sick and tired" people are voting!

Now they would, many of them would have voted the other way in previous ballots.

I'd imagine the result will be announced on Thursday irrespective of what it is.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The only thing you can be certain of is No vote will be down. Minimum by 20% percent down. I hope it's a no vote but let's keep in mind LR will be dead by June and a new agreement in place. I have cautioned many posters here to take a break and fear the worst. That way you can be pleasantly surprised. You have to ask if you have changed any views here ?
More and more this thread resembles a support group for union addicts. I say this not in condemnation but in fear .

I'm back disagreeing with you, Mrwhite! Not about the certainty of a greatly reduced No but about your other two points. How on earth can you take a break while in the midst of a ballot the result of which could have a major negative impact on your working conditions? I'd love to take a break from this! I wish to god it would all go away,that the Govt would stop their constant hammering at us and just let us do our jobs. But they won't so there are three options:1. Give in and vote yes for a quiet life. Great idea when said quiet life will actually be a much tougher job.2. Leave the union. Fine but unless you leave teaching with it you're still in the middle of everything, so pretty hard to just switch off. 3.Fight on by saying No.Which is my choice.

Support group for union addicts!! Come on!! I know you didn't say it in condemnation but it still comes across as a bit patronising.For me this is not about the union as such,it's about defending our working conditions.And the fact that there are so few of us remaining on this site,regardless of which side we're taking, could be a worrying sign that the rot of complacency and defeatism has already set in with many.

The result on Thursday will tell a lot.

Terri26

Similar to what others have said here the majority of people I've heard who are voting yes are LPTs/NQTS. I know two permanent teachers voting yes (one works for the JCT so has a different priority and interest).
The ASTI's CEC have asked for a no so if this is passed which I hope it isn't I hope it stops the nonsense of people saying (esp LPTs) that the ASTI threw them under a bus and worsened their conditions . If someone wants to vote yes that's their right and I understand them wanting a CID quicker and not looking long term but in all disputes there are sacrifices/threats.

Powerhouse

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I hope it's a no vote but let's keep in mind LR will be dead by June and a new agreement in place.

Funnily enough I think the fact that the LRA will be dead by June makes a No vote all the more important. Any negotiating clout we have with regard to a new agreement will be given up before we walk in the door if this is a Yes vote. Going in having rejected the LRA again will strengthen our position in my view and will also maybe make another union or two reconsider. A Yes vote to an agreement that changes nothing for us is effectively saying that ASTI teachers do not want union representation. I got the distinct impression in our place that the majority was in favour of No but you never know in a secret ballot. I would always feels there's a very soft middle-ground which doesn't understand the issues and/or doesn't care enough to vote No. That sort of group will always increase in a revote. Rarely will the more radical vote increase. Hopefully it won't increase enough or we will be fish in a barrel into the future.

coillsaille

Powerhouse wrote: »

Funnily enough I think the fact that the LRA will be dead by June makes a No vote all the more important. Any negotiating clout we have with regard to a new agreement will be given up before we walk in the door if this is a Yes vote. Going in having rejected the LRA again will strengthen our position in my view and will also maybe make another union or two reconsider. A Yes vote to an agreement that changes nothing for us is effectively saying that ASTI teachers do not want union representation. I got the distinct impression in our place that the majority was in favour of No but you never know in a secret ballot. I would always feels there's a very soft middle-ground which doesn't understand the issues and/or doesn't care enough to vote No. That sort of group will always increase in a revote. Rarely will the more radical vote increase. Hopefully it won't increase enough or we will be fish in a barrel into the future.

Couldn't agree more. The fact that LRA is coming under increasing pressure and soon to be replaced is all the more reason to stay out of it.
If we now accept an agreement which we rejected previously, and which is on its' way out, we will be a laughing stock and will have no voice in the negotiations for the next agreement. If we vote No we will have sent a clear message that the next agreement better offer more favourable terms, including a commitment to equal pay for equal work and an acknowledgement of the ridiculous nature of the CP hours.
Anyway all we can do now is wait and hope.

MrJones1973

Sorry I should not have written Union addicts. What I was getting at is if this goes YES then posting here will make the fall even harder. You're building up to a bigger fall but to each his own. The ballots are in. Its beyond your control now. But what I have written above is only advice and a bit of projection.

If it goes YES then every single SC seat should be contested next time and the member in question-asked about what went wrong. I have my doubts about incoming President in that ,if Ed byrne could not bring about a good outcome-who could?

Inspector Coptoor

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Sorry I should not have written Union addicts. What I was getting at is if this goes YES then posting here will make the fall even harder. You're building up to a bigger fall but to each his own. The ballots are in. Its beyond your control now. But what I have written above is only advice and a bit of projection.

If it goes YES then every single SC seat should be contested next time and the member in question-asked about what went wrong. I have my doubts about incoming President in that ,if Ed byrne could not bring about a good outcome-who could?

Do you think Ed has had a good term as President?

MrJones1973

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Do you think Ed has had a good term as President?

No ed has been as bad as the rest of the last few presidents. He will probably be prompted to principal soon if this passes. Not saying he was bought but he hardly did anything to piss the establishment off . He needs to look up the word strategy

km79

It's almost over now anyway
Or is it ......

Benicetomonty

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

No ed has been as bad as the rest of the last few presidents. He will probably be prompted to principal soon if this passes. Not saying he was bought but he hardly did anything to piss the establishment off . He needs to look up the word strategy

Have to say Im disappointed with Ed. Nothing to do with media performances, not his station and up against pros and biased pros at that. But to not walk out of those 'negotiations' during December was hugely demoralising, as was his decision to use a Presidential privilige to ensure CEC were able to vote as to whether the proposals should go to a ballot. Influenced by either a misplaced desire to make us look cooperative to a media that seem intent never to objectively cover a dispute involving the ASTI, or he was brow beaten by department cronies. Dont know which it was but one as depressing as the other.

Icsics

km79 wrote: »

It's almost over now anyway
Or is it ......

All over or about to get very interesting ....come on the NOs!!

feardeas

Well nearly there. In the event that this is rejected. I have a few questions.

How long do we continue working for free? ( s and s) Apparently there was little interest in the positions advertised in October. BTW I mean a concrete date rather than vague language.

Do the ASTI have a plan that would lead to talks?

Is there to be a derogation for the Assessment Task?

What are the conditions that would allow entry to LRA?

In the event of redundancy when do strikes start? In May when notice is given or from September. In relation to the idea of regional strikes. Is that per ASTI regions or some other construct? It is likely that these schools will be predominantly in the west or in schools that are amalgamating. Therefore does that mean that we will have the amazing spectacle of some members being paid and others on strike and thus losing pay?

These are just a few. I don't expect answers from posters. However I would expect clear, unambiguous answers from HQ within hours of a rejection. Anything less would be a serious dereliction of responsibility from the leadership.

km79

feardeas wrote: »

Well nearly there. In the event that this is rejected. I have a few questions.

How long do we continue working for free? ( s and s) Apparently there was little interest in the positions advertised in October. BTW I mean a concrete date rather than vague language.

Do the ASTI have a plan that would lead to talks?

Is there to be a derogation for the Assessment Task?

What are the conditions that would allow entry to LRA?

In the event of redundancy when do strikes start? In May when notice is given or from September. In relation to the idea of regional strikes. Is that per ASTI regions or some other construct? It is likely that these schools will be predominantly in the west or in schools that are amalgamating. Therefore does that mean that we will have the amazing spectacle of some members being paid and others on strike and thus losing pay?

These are just a few. I don't expect answers from posters. However I would expect clear, unambiguous answers from HQ within hours of a rejection. Anything less would be a serious dereliction of responsibility from the leadership.

Indeed
And if it's accepted is the s and s payment backdated to September ........

deiseindublin

feardeas wrote: »

.....I would expect clear, unambiguous answers from HQ within hours of a rejection.

I think that's totally unrealistic.

Not getting the result you want doesn't mean that everybody else will be ready to jump up and down.

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

Indeed
And if it's accepted is the s and s payment backdated to September ........

I was under impression that increments and s&s would not be backdated to Sept but would kick in nxt sept

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

I was under impression that increments and s&s would not be backdated to Sept but would kick in nxt sept

Why would we sign up for any deal that would do that ?
If it went BEYOND April there was the threat of increments not being paid alright I believe

acequion

feardeas wrote: »

Well nearly there. In the event that this is rejected. I have a few questions.

How long do we continue working for free? ( s and s) Apparently there was little interest in the positions advertised in October. BTW I mean a concrete date rather than vague language.

Do the ASTI have a plan that would lead to talks?

Is there to be a derogation for the Assessment Task?

What are the conditions that would allow entry to LRA?

In the event of redundancy when do strikes start? In May when notice is given or from September. In relation to the idea of regional strikes. Is that per ASTI regions or some other construct? It is likely that these schools will be predominantly in the west or in schools that are amalgamating. Therefore does that mean that we will have the amazing spectacle of some members being paid and others on strike and thus losing pay?

These are just a few. I don't expect answers from posters. However I would expect clear, unambiguous answers from HQ within hours of a rejection. Anything less would be a serious dereliction of responsibility from the leadership.

You're 24 hours too early with those questions feardeas. At this point it has neither been accepted or rejected so let's wait until we get the result before we start thinking post ballot.

That said,I fervently hope that your questions will be relevant tomorrow evening.