Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

political analyst

judeboy101 wrote: »

kieran christie did well on 6 one. kept on point when dobbo mentioned any further strikes this year, he said none planned but if one asti member is made redundant then all bets off. also made point about 10% saying that the sec had precedent for adjusting marks , hopefully his baptism by fire last yr in media has hardened his skills

That probably wouldn't happen until the summer. It would be political suicide to make teachers redundant before then (Imagine the disruption it would cause).

acequion

Ohmigod guys I am just worn out but absolutely thrilled! :D:D

acequion

Mrwhite get your ass back to the union fast. We need you!!!! :D:D

petejmk

Marymidlands wrote: »

Are TUI doing these hours? Schools can't do pt meetings outside school if a mixed Union school?

In a dual union school. No CP hrs done at all this year by TUI.

milosh

Happy with the no vote but very disheartened by the media reaction afterwards. All talk of the Junior Cycle stuff with LPTs pay coming in a distant 2nd.

judeboy101

political analyst wrote: »

That probably wouldn't happen until the summer. It would be political suicide to make teachers redundant before then (Imagine the disruption it would cause).

A lot of asti correct state exams , and redundancy announced in june or july would most prob be met with a withdrawal from those contracts, political suicide for mr bruton. that leaves august, and teachers only off for 3 weeks in august and its a minimum 4 weeks notice for redundancy, so teachers would be sacked a week after starting up school so schools would be on all out strike.

judeboy101

Never give up hope my brothers and sisters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5_LQArLa0

jayo76

Delighted with this result and that enough members had the backbone to continue to stand up to the bullying tactics of the Government. Have been reading a lot of the posts on ASTI facebook page, Voice for Teachers etc. Amazing to see the numbers of them commenting on the tightness of the vote and wondering will the wishes of the 47% who voted yes be taken account of as we move forward.

Now my view would be that of course they should be, everyone regardless of whether they voted yes or no has a role to play in shaping the future of the union and all shades of opinion should be encouraged and respected. Differences of opinion as long as expressed respectfully are healthy.

At the same time I think that there needs to be an acceptance by those who voted yes that this was a democratic ballot and the simple result is that more people voted no than yes. I cant help but wonder if the vote had gone the other way 52% yes would there be equal calls this evening for the position of the no voters to be valued and respected or would they be dismissed as a lunatic fringe for their desire to stand up for the conditions of teachers and the standard of education in this country.

SligoBrewer

People voted yes because of all the punishments and beatings we've taken.

Second class pay levels compared to TUI.
No increments.
Second class CIDs.
The €1000 bribe that the Government came out with last week.

People have their own issues and their own strains. We've been fighting for so long and to still hold says a lot.

Powerhouse

feardeas wrote: »

Different game for sure. This vote saves the government money. No increments no s and s money, which we continue to do for free. No €1k. No alleviation of the posts.

Anyway I'm annoyed as will be nearly half the union. It's s house divided.

I don't know what the plan is and I'm not sure anyone does. Anyway the decision is made. Given the result the pressure on the leadership is immense. Nearly half the members against them perhaps and those that rejected may perhaps be disappointed if there isn't some miraculous change.

Good luck.

Strike days also saved the government money. Pulling out of S&S would save them even more as it would ensure the closure of the schools indefinitely. Not a lot we can do about that as long as they control the purse strings. That's the teachers' big weakness. However, you are portraying this as simply a money issue, which for many people it is not.

I would always and forever vote against anything that involved Croke Park hours. The government attitude to the JC is more farcical than people can ever imagine. Leaving aside the new arrangements for the like of English, other languages can have the Oral component examined by anyone - the SEC doesn't even ask who they are, or if they can speak the language. Some people might not care but that's the future if the ASTI does not stand up.

You keep going on about a "plan". Why not ask people in your staff-room what their "plan" would be? Talk is easy. The plan is to get into negotiation, no more no less - and no, nobody can tell what the outcome will be. Such is life.

As for pressure on the leadership.................what pressure? They are simply implementing what the membership wants. Why should they feel under pressure over the "nearly half" the membership that "are against" them? That nearly half the membership were willing to accept an empty formula which gained nothing and conceded everything should cost the leadership little thought. Why on earth should the union leadership feel any pressure over a group of appeasers who will accept whatever is thrown at them and keep their heads down? Those who were determined and principled enough to stand their ground and vote down the same set of proposals should concern the leadership far more than a people who are swayed in their vote by bit of inconvenience only and have no guiding principle or opinion.

People of the mindset to have accepted essentially the same deal as was ever on the table will, in the end, also accept anything the leadership negotiates because that's the type of people they are. Consequently, under no circumstances should or would the leadership feel pressurised by such people. They are the easiest ones to please as they just want it all to go away irrespective of the consequences and can be bought off with a few quid.

MrJones1973

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Whatever proposal they bring next time will be accepted. All depends how long they fight for now. The first proposal rejected 80/20, almost nothing changed. Ran again to 52/48.... they offered nothing new and still won 28%....all they need to do is force our union to present us any deal

Up to our leaders to not bring us the same deal a third time

I think no vote was down due to shambles in November and the poor outcome of talks . Now all Ed and co has to do is keep to work to rule.
I'm not sure how much of JC they can stop . That needs clarification. I'm teaching English curriculum last two years for example and this ballot has not changed that .
I was wrong. Lost my nerve. But to be fair I think this result bucked the usual pattern.
There won't be any re ballot before June. A new deal to all public sector on way.

Villain

I can see the ASTI loosing a fair few members after this, huge device now within the union, my brother voted to accept it and is devastated.

km79

Villain wrote: »

I can see the ASTI loosing a fair few members after this, huge device now within the union, my brother voted to accept it and is devastated.

What the point in him leaving though ?
Can't join another union whilst in dispute and if in an all Asti school he will be treated by the dept as an Asti member for pay, increments etc

Powerhouse

Villain wrote: »

I can see the ASTI loosing a fair few members after this, huge device now within the union, my brother voted to accept it and is devastated.

The question of union membership is speculative and a fairly standard comment in such circumstances where a ballot result doesn't suit. Referencing the margin and turnout are others. There are plenty of TUI members who reject the stance of their union and might join the ASTI too. That's as valuable a speculation I would suggest. As for your brother's devastation, I would have been devastated had the vote gone the other way. C'est la vie.

amacca

OH is happy with result...says she may not have to avail of the stress helpline the dept sent the leaflet out about this morning (only half jokingly) as the working conditions may stay at being difficult rather than going in the unsustainable direction they looked to be heading if a yes was returned. She was genuinely thinking of trying to change careers in a couple of years if a yes was returned....

ethical

Well done for having the guts to take on a priviledged posse of politicians that do not care or understand the workings of Education.

Please remember that we are treated like sh1t by a shower who just gave themselves a huge increase,where is their productivity,where are their CP hours,we have been totally discriminated against on the grounds of our Union membership,its akin to the racism suffered by ethnic minorities all over the Old World years ago.
Brutons days are numbered.He never did understand Education in his term as Minister.Perhaps too much pressure from Paschal!

What is this crap about the 47.5 %,have we such short memories of past referenda results in Ireland! Of course we wont forget them! Do you ask for your money back when your lotto ticket dosent provide you with a win!

solerina

Villain wrote: »

I can see the ASTI loosing a fair few members after this, huge device now within the union, my brother voted to accept it and is devastated.

he may be devastated today but in the long run he is far better off, we need to stand up for the future of the entire profession !!

r93kaey5p2izun

km79 wrote: »

What the point in him leaving though ?
Can't join another union whilst in dispute and if in an all Asti school he will be treated by the dept as an Asti member for pay, increments etc

And the non union members in my dual union school who have frozen increments, 4 year CIDs and unpaid S&S have been refused the opportunity to sign up to the agreement now even by joining TUI. One joined and left again as no benefit. ETB claim LRA benefits are only available to existing staff if they returned the declaration form regarding TUI membership last summer.

feardeas

Anyone in their right mind would talk about a plan. Mine would have been to accept, take what was on the table and then negotiate in the next deal.

That did not have the majority view, so be it. However grace in victory wouldn't go astray.

As for negotiation. Good God, it's laughable. Why would they negotiate. The schools will be open. There will be no disruption save to an exam that is low stakes and that we all tell pre leaving certs to forget about as soon as they get the results. Oh and to top it all it seems we continue to do s and s for free. Work for free. That's part of our action. I'd say Michael O Leary would gladly deal with such a union.

Anyway the result is the result. Sun rises tomorrow, I'm permanent, no danger of bring over quota, there long enough not to be worried about it even if there was a dip in numbers. Not on the breadline. You know what there's worse than me and life is short.

gaiscioch

Well done fiery comrades. We have restored dignity to our profession, a dignity that has been assailed and undermined for almost 8 years now. How many times must we answer the same essential questions in those years?

To reiterate: the Croke Park Hours are complete bullshít hours with zero connection to any concept of reform that means improvement. You will never, ever, ever hear this from the pathetic excuse that passes for the journalists of this state. Pravda couldn't have been as sychopantic when it comes to accepting unquestionably the government's line and attacking teachers based on government propaganda.

My personal revenge on these people: I've gone from being a regular purchaser of The Irish Times to complete boycott (I've never bought any of Independent Newspapers rags). If every Irish teacher put their money where their anger is, it would soften their cough.

I can see the government's logic in getting us to do S&S as part of our jobs as they will save millions. It makes sense from their perspective. Putting tens of thousands of grown, intelligent, educated Irish professionals on detention - never mind a detention based on insipid, repetitive, pointless waffle around child welfare, mindfulness and the like - has never, ever made sense. They are indefensible, and we should keep driving this point home no matter what way Carl O'Brien (and Joe Humphries before him) and Martin Wall of The Irish Times try to distort the truth and belie fairness in their reportage.

For many of us with young children the time immediately after we finish school is devoted to corrections and making new class work before we have to collect our own children before crèche closes. In my case, every single school day is a 10-hour day: 8am-6pm. Without exception, and it's not enough. No schoolwork is done in a house full of little children. Yet, the geniuses in the Department of Education think our time is better spent sitting around talking nonsense over and over again. And then they'll utter some meaningless platitudes about teachers being under stress -when their "reform" is adding to it! And that's before we talk about the proposed JC and the entirely political "let's give more work to teachers because we must be seen to be making them work more" mentality underlying it.

Perhaps some day a member of the Irish media would put my questions to Richard Bruton, or his replacement as Minister for Education. As I suspect that the minister's secretary gives the permissible questions to the journalists, I won't hold my breath.

MrJones1973

I might rejoin particularly if the department threatens redundancies. I quit because I expected a defeat for nos .

Well done

Iused2likebusts

How come TDs that entered the dail after 2011 didn't come in on a lower payscale .

political analyst

ethical wrote: »

Well done for having the guts to take on a priviledged posse of politicians that do not care or understand the workings of Education.

Please remember that we are treated like sh1t by a shower who just gave themselves a huge increase,where is their productivity,where are their CP hours,we have been totally discriminated against on the grounds of our Union membership,its akin to the racism suffered by ethnic minorities all over the Old World years ago.
Brutons days are numbered.He never did understand Education in his term as Minister.Perhaps too much pressure from Paschal!

What is this crap about the 47.5 %,have we such short memories of past referenda results in Ireland! Of course we wont forget them! Do you ask for your money back when your lotto ticket dosent provide you with a win!

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

How come TDs that entered the dail after 2011 didn't come in on a lower payscale .

Although those TDs who were in office before the election and held on to their seats in the election are still in the same location - Leinster House - the present Dáil - the 32nd Dáil - is technically a different employer from the 31st Dáil, which was a different employer from the 30th Dáil, and so on.

r93kaey5p2izun

political analyst wrote: »

Although those TDs who were in office before the election and held on to their seats in the election are still in the same location - Leinster House - the present Dáil - the 32nd Dáil - is technically a different employer from the 31st Dáil, which was a different employer from the 30th Dáil, and so on.

What's your point? Teachers changing schools also move to a new employer - doesn't have any relevance to the privileged status of new entrant TDs among public servants.

SligoBrewer

Villain wrote: »

I can see the ASTI loosing a fair few members after this, huge device now within the union, my brother voted to accept it and is devastated.

I would have been 70,000 times more over the next 10 years.

Villain

km79 wrote: »

What the point in him leaving though ?
Can't join another union whilst in dispute and if in an all Asti school he will be treated by the dept as an Asti member for pay, increments etc

Mixed school and you saying he can't leave the ASTI union. Then join the TUI who not in a dispute?

man_no_plan

Villain wrote: »

Mixed school and you saying he can't leave the ASTI union. Then join the TUI who not in a dispute?

A guy in the TUI told me that they had members in secondary schools getting the increments and doing the JC. Don't know if he was bul****ting me.

r93kaey5p2izun

Villain wrote:

Mixed school and you saying he can't leave the ASTI union. Then join the TUI who not in a dispute?

He can of course leave ASTI. He can't join TUI though and as a non union member he will be treated as outside the LRA.

man_no_plan wrote: »

A guy in the TUI told me that they had members in secondary schools getting the increments and doing the JC. Don't know if he was bul****ting me.

That is the case - TUI can represent teachers in the voluntary sector in some cases. But you can't switch union during a dispute under ICTU rules (agreed exception if teacher moves to single union school of the other persuasion).

joebloggs32

Villain wrote: »

Mixed school and you saying he can't leave the ASTI union. Then join the TUI who not in a dispute?

The TUI can't accept him at the moment as there is a long standing ICTU agreement that members can't simply resign from one and join the other if one side is in dispute.
I am a branch officer and our branch declined an application by someone to join a couple of months ago.

amacca

political analyst wrote: »

Although those TDs who were in office before the election and held on to their seats in the election are still in the same location - Leinster House - the present Dáil - the 32nd Dáil - is technically a different employer from the 31st Dáil, which was a different employer from the 30th Dáil, and so on.

Sweet jesus! you can offer up this as some sort of defence for politicians but continually post critically here while ignoring teachers real concerns on these so called reforms?.....is it even a defence? I'm not quite sure tbh

Whats the opposite of a moral high ground?