Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

Powerhouse

feardeas wrote: »

Anyone in their right mind would talk about a plan. Mine would have been to accept, take what was on the table and then negotiate in the next deal.

That did not have the majority view, so be it. However grace in victory wouldn't go astray.

Why would they negotiate. The schools will be open.

Why would they negotiate? Not sure really, for the government, if it's simply a matter of keeping schools open - they sure have been doing an awful lot of talk about the LRA irrespective of the schools' status. For a group which, apparently laughably, doesn't have to negotiate with the ASTI they usually seem quite keen to sit down with public sector unions. They did so with the ASTI recently albeit conceding diddley-squat and spooking a certain percentage of the ASTI membership into disregarding all principles and jumping ship - but they did negotiate.

And they also seemed quite exercised about the CP hours, and presumably the potential contagion effect on other unions with negotiations on a successor to LR in the pipelines. Remember that the CP hours was Bruton's bottom line in every interview. And you think they can't be brought to the table? That they are happy that the ASTI does not subscribe to the new JC. That they do not do CP hours? Time will tell.

As for your "grace in victory" comment.................come on, it's not the All-Ireland we've just won. It's a democratic vote and people who voted No fervently believe that it is for the greater good. There's nobody slagging off "your team".

deiseindublin

joebloggs32 wrote: »

The TUI can't accept him at the moment as there is a long standing ICTU agreement that members can't simply resign from one and join the other if one side is in dispute.
I am a branch officer and our branch declined an application by someone to join a couple of months ago.

Do you accept ex-TUI members? We (TUI) are not in dispute so I should be able to move, but I was told that ASTI don't have negotiating rights for us.

I'm in a non designated school so while not actually mixed union, could be iykwim.

joebloggs32

deiseindublin wrote: »

Do you accept ex-TUI members? We (TUI) are not in dispute so I should be able to move, but I was told that ASTI don't have negotiating rights for us.

I'm in a non designated school so while not actually mixed union, could be iykwim.

I'm a TUI branch officer. As far as I know you can't move from the TUI into the ASTI at the moment under the same rule. You would be free to so when the ASTI dispute ends.
Even if the Asti didn't have negotiating rights for you it is possible to have some benefits of membership, such as access to their income protection scheme, car insurance and most importantly they would look after you if there was ever a fitness to teach hearing against you at the Teaching Council.

Pursefan

I hate to say this but I believe the TUI are accepting ASTI members who have left. We have 2 teachers hopefully of CIDS and they were Def ASTI. Told some of us last week that they have joined the TUI. So what's going on??

evolving_doors

Pursefan wrote: »

I hate to say this but I believe the TUI are accepting ASTI members who have left. We have 2 teachers hopefully of CIDS and they were Def ASTI. Told some of us last week that they have joined the TUI. So what's going on??

Who's to know where they came from. Freedom of information / data protection and all that jazz... unless someone reports them I suppose!

Pursefan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Who's to know where they came from. Freedom of information / data protection and all that jazz... unless someone reports them I suppose!

I am a branch officer and was present when both were proposed and also saw their names on lists in our school when we voted last time.

judeboy101

Pursefan wrote: »

I hate to say this but I believe the TUI are accepting ASTI members who have left. We have 2 teachers hopefully of CIDS and they were Def ASTI. Told some of us last week that they have joined the TUI. So what's going on??

report them to tui if you believe they are pulling a fast one. They are effectively scabs

evolving_doors

Pursefan wrote: »

I am a branch officer and was present when both were proposed and also saw their names on lists in our school when we voted last time.

OK so that's your knowledge from the ASTI side... but how are the TUI to know that when they send in their application to join?

Pursefan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

OK so that's your knowledge from the ASTI side... but how are the TUI to know that when they send in their application to join?

Is it too much to hope that they would abide by the ICTU understanding Re this and check with the ASTI? It's very demoralising to watch this happen in your staffroom as you try to solder on.

evolving_doors

Pursefan wrote: »

Is it too much to hope that they would abide by the ICTU understanding Re this and check with the ASTI? It's very demoralising to watch this happen in your staffroom as you try to solder on.

Ah yes I'm in agreement with you as regards keeping to the spirit of the rules. But you know yourself if there's a rule to be broken then it will inevitably be .. especially if it's 'abiding with an understanding'.
Essentially what I'm getting at is that unions aren't allowed to share personal data with each other (or are they? ). Like if you alert another union that someone was previously a member of another union do they have a right to outright refuse membership based on hearsay.

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

Well done fiery comrades. We have restored dignity to our profession, a dignity that has been assailed and undermined for almost 8 years now. How many times must we answer the same essential questions in those years?

To reiterate: the Croke Park Hours are complete bullshít hours with zero connection to any concept of reform that means improvement. You will never, ever, ever hear this from the pathetic excuse that passes for the journalists of this state. Pravda couldn't have been as sychopantic when it comes to accepting unquestionably the government's line and attacking teachers based on government propaganda.

My personal revenge on these people: I've gone from being a regular purchaser of The Irish Times to complete boycott (I've never bought any of Independent Newspapers rags). If every Irish teacher put their money where their anger is, it would soften their cough.

I can see the government's logic in getting us to do S&S as part of our jobs as they will save millions. It makes sense from their perspective. Putting tens of thousands of grown, intelligent, educated Irish professionals on detention - never mind a detention based on insipid, repetitive, pointless waffle around child welfare, mindfulness and the like - has never, ever made sense. They are indefensible, and we should keep driving this point home no matter what way Carl O'Brien (and Joe Humphries before him) and Martin Wall of The Irish Times try to distort the truth and belie fairness in their reportage.

For many of us with young children the time immediately after we finish school is devoted to corrections and making new class work before we have to collect our own children before crèche closes. In my case, every single school day is a 10-hour day: 8am-6pm. Without exception, and it's not enough. No schoolwork is done in a house full of little children. Yet, the geniuses in the Department of Education think our time is better spent sitting around talking nonsense over and over again. And then they'll utter some meaningless platitudes about teachers being under stress -when their "reform" is adding to it! And that's before we talk about the proposed JC and the entirely political "let's give more work to teachers because we must be seen to be making them work more" mentality underlying it.

Perhaps some day a member of the Irish media would put my questions to Richard Bruton, or his replacement as Minister for Education. As I suspect that the minister's secretary gives the permissible questions to the journalists, I won't hold my breath.

I was really worried about where people like you had gone gaiscioch so I'm delighted to see you back. I agree with every word you say about CP hours and how they eat into precious family time.

I also applaud you on your Independent newspapers boycott. They print rubbish,even worse than rubbish and I find that so frustrating as an English teacher eager to point my students in fertile reading directions. Ingrid Miley on tonight's 9 o clock news could barely hold in her disapproval of these ASTI teachers who are "in isolation from the LRA".Do I really pay a licence to be listening to the likes of her! :eek:

And the disappointment and frustration of the Yes camp is also seeping through and with it their total incomprehension of the principles their No colleagues voted for. There is no "miraculous" answer or "speedy" reaction. This is about defending the profession from neo liberal politicians who basically want to "shake it up" a bit before they shake off much as you people might disparage AAA and PBP. Though tbh I'm neither for or against such parties,I'm still to make up my mind on that as a former mainstream voter. The recession IS over after all so they've long run out of excuses for the constant "last ask." So patient and passive resistance is the strategy.

I'm utterly wrecked folks.It's been nerve wrecking but we got there and I'm so proud of you all!

joebloggs32

Pursefan wrote: »

I hate to say this but I believe the TUI are accepting ASTI members who have left. We have 2 teachers hopefully of CIDS and they were Def ASTI. Told some of us last week that they have joined the TUI. So what's going on??

If they fail to declare on their application form that they were Asti members then you cant have any way of knowing if they were or weren't members of Asti. Maybe they have applied online, but have they been admitted yet by a branch.
Also if they left Asti before last July we were told that we were to accept them as that is when the LRA began.

Pursefan

I'm in agreement with you as regards keeping to the spirit of the rules. But you know yourself if there's a rule to be broken then it will inevitably be .. especially if it's 'abiding with an understanding'.
Essentially what I'm getting at is that unions aren't allowed to share personal data with each other (or are they? ). Like if you alert another union that someone was previously a member of another union do they have a right to outright refuse membership based on hearsay.
Good point. But we relied on this advice as given by ASTI . If it's wrong then let's not be asked to quote it. It just niggles me.

political analyst

amacca wrote: »

Sweet jesus! you can offer up this as some sort of defence for politicians but continually post critically here while ignoring teachers real concerns on these so called reforms?.....is it even a defence? I'm not quite sure tbh

Whats the opposite of a moral high ground?

Junior Cert reform was in the pipeline long before Ruairí Quinn even became education minister. If the ASTI hadn't shot down Gemma Hussey's reform attempt back in the 1980s there might have been a reformed Leaving Cert by now - which could have reduced the stress that students are under, i.e. the points race.

picturehangup

Mr White.. back to work. End of, no excuses.

StewartGriffin

judeboy101 wrote: »

report them to tui if you believe they are pulling a fast one. They are effectively scabs

They applied to switch from a union they didn't agree with. How are they Scabs?

political analyst

Kolton Teeny Hall wrote: »

What's your point? Teachers changing schools also move to a new employer - doesn't have any relevance to the privileged status of new entrant TDs among public servants.

My point is an explanation of the reason why TDs and senators are treated differently from non-elected public sector workers.

As for your point of teaching changing schools, the difference is that, after a teacher has been redeployed, the teacher's former employer, unlike the previous Dáil, doesn't cease to exist (except for closures and amalgamations of schools but those are rare).

judeboy101

StewartGriffin wrote: »

They applied to switch from a union they didn't agree with. How are they Scabs?

They left a union in dispute for a union not indispute. If they left the union on principal why join another? They left for personal gain end of story and that's like crossing a picket just to get paid. The fact that they knew they have to declare past membership but failed makes them even more shady. In fact I'd have more respect for a colleague who passed me on a picket than for these who sneak in the back door.

Bean Scoile

I was under the impression that if you left a union, after 3 months to could join another one as a free agent. I know of people who did that over the summer last year.

amacca

political analyst wrote: »

My point is an explanation of the reason why TDs and senators are treated differently from non-elected public sector workers.

As for your point of teaching changing schools, the difference is that, after a teacher has been redeployed, the teacher's former employer, unlike the previous Dáil, doesn't cease to exist (except for closures and amalgamations of schools but those are rare).

Does the Island of Ireland cease to exist for TDs between each Dail then?..... and perhaps reappear complete with crossroads filled with dancing Cailins when the results of a general election are in.

MrJones1973

I'm still trying to process my shock that finally the Asti showed balls. Next move brutal Bruton but as I have stated before a new public pay deal on the way. Asti must secure the no vote and hold it. We will have another ballot but not until next school year
The only move I can see to escalate this whole thing would be the redundancy issue which is a legal minefield in mixed union schools..

Iused2likebusts

political analyst wrote: »

Although those TDs who were in office before the election and held on to their seats in the election are still in the same location - Leinster House - the present Dáil - the 32nd Dáil - is technically a different employer from the 31st Dáil, which was a different employer from the 30th Dáil, and so on.

Even better so technically they all should have come in on a new lower pay scale if that's the case.

MrJones1973

In Asti schools (secondary) makes no difference whether you are in a union or not. You get treated as an Asti member. As another poster said-declaration last September remains in place-switching unions wont change your status now. TUI should not accept ASTI members but I recall ASTI saying their membership went up in mixed union schools not down!

Jumping unions is morally a bad idea and self serving. It benefits neither union. Democracy is democracy. We all swallowed HR. I have had my own criticisms of ASTI but I would never join TUI -even if I was to benefit. Even at Present I would never cross a picket.

Without Unions -flawed as they are things would be much worse. Some might question how, so here is my answer

You would be evaluated by your Principal annually
You would be obligated to hace class plans each day
You would have to correct EVERY single piece of student writing
June would be gone
Look to the UK-weak unions created a 60 hour work week with only 10 weeks off

joebloggs32

Bean Scoile wrote: »

I was under the impression that if you left a union, after 3 months to could join another one as a free agent. I know of people who did that over the summer last year.

If they left last summer before the end of the HRA then they would be accepted, as the dispute started on July 12 when the LRA kicked in.

irishgrover

judeboy101 wrote:

They left a union in dispute for a union not indispute. If they left the union on principal why join another? They left for personal gain end of story and that's like crossing a picket just to get paid. The fact that they knew they have to declare past membership but failed makes them even more shady. In fact I'd have more respect for a colleague who passed me on a picket than for these who sneak in the back door.

I am not a teacher, nor union member, nor am I educated enough to have a position on the validity of one unions stance, over another unions stance, over the employers stance.
However is it not possible for a teacher to leave one union and join a different union because they agree more with the 2nd unions positions and fell that they are better represented by that union, both from a ideological, personal and practical point of view? How are these people scabs...to me this view is totalitarian and undemocratic...

judeboy101

irishgrover wrote: »

I am not a teacher, nor union member, nor am I educated enough to have a position on the validity of one unions stance, over another unions stance, over the employers stance.
However is it not possible for a teacher to leave one union and join a different union because they agree more with the 2nd unions positions and fell that they are better represented by that union, both from a ideological, personal and practical point of view? How are these people scabs...to me this view is totalitarian and undemocratic...

I love my missus and kids, but Rihanna would be a a better fit, both from a ideological, personal and practical point of view. Will i leave my wife and kids for a life of sex, sand and tons of money? NO, In the words of that Barbadian goddess,
" When the sun shines, we shine together / Told you I'll be here forever / Said I'll always be your friend / Took an oath that I'm a stick it out till the end".

TL:DR They are scabs

Powerhouse

irishgrover wrote: »

How are these people scabs...to me this view is totalitarian and undemocratic...

Not quite sure what totalitarian means in this context but surely the very act moving from one union to another because the view of the majority doesn't suit you is undemocratic in itself. Sometimes in this world you nail your colours to a mast and then you have to suck it up. That's part of democracy too.

SligoBrewer

irishgrover wrote: »

I am not a teacher, nor union member, nor am I educated enough to have a position on the validity of one unions stance, over another unions stance, over the employers stance.
However is it not possible for a teacher to leave one union and join a different union because they agree more with the 2nd unions positions and fell that they are better represented by that union, both from a ideological, personal and practical point of view? How are these people scabs...to me this view is totalitarian and undemocratic...

Not while their own union is in dispute. That is the very purpose of a union. We are all in this for each other.

irishgrover

thanks for the responses, I'll back away again, as I fundementally disagree with the concept that people are "scabs" for having a minority opinion and not adhering to a herd mentality

feardeas

irishgrover wrote:

thanks for the responses, I'll back away again, as I fundementally disagree with the concept that people are "scabs" for having a minority opinion and not adhering to a herd mentality

Unfortunately it seems many have to back away. Can't argue with majority. We'll only vex them. Positively Trumpish