Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

Lots of schools I know of breaking the directive. Mentioned in an earlier post as well. That's the reality. When you actually get beyond the bluff and bluster there's a lot of merit on the course.

What bluff and bluster? Calling the new junior cycle exactly what it is, a big dumbing down,something that is guaranteed to lower standards!

Now as an English teacher I fully agree that oral presentations are great. Public speaking is a necessary and valuable skill and yes indeed the kids enjoy it. However it needs to be placed within the context of of a workable, beneficial curriculum with external assessment.

Sorry but I'm just all of of patience with Yes people who basically want to do what they're told and then try to make out that the people who have to guts to fight for what is right are the villains.

Some of us are putting in long hours with the union trying to halt the decline in standards and people like you and your school and other schools are making a mockery of that. I really hope you get reported to the union!

km79

PureClareGold wrote: »

Lots of schools I know of breaking the directive. Mentioned in an earlier post as well. That's the reality. When you actually get beyond the bluff and bluster there's a lot of merit on the course.

Dont know of any school that has broken directive in my region
That's my reality

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

What bluff and bluster? Calling the new junior cycle exactly what it is, a big dumbing down,something that is guaranteed to lower standards!

Now as an English teacher I fully agree that oral presentations are great. Public speaking is a necessary and valuable skill and yes indeed the kids enjoy it. However it needs to be placed within the context of of a workable, beneficial curriculum with external assessment.

Sorry but I'm just all of of patience with Yes people who basically want to do what they're told and then try to make out that the people who have to guts to fight for what is right are the villains.

Some of us are putting in long hours with the union trying to halt the decline in standards and people like you and your school and other schools are making a mockery of that. I really hope you get reported to the union!

So the only value you can see in anything but if it's externally assessed? You don't see how students will benefit from learning how to research and do a presentation with fellow students? It must be externally assessed to be valid? I can't agree with you. I feel for you if you don't have the confidence to grade your students. We do it at term tests already. How exactly bus it being "dumbed down" as you put it? Why are you a teacher? Is it to only get externally assessed grades?
I want my students to be confident, independent people who can think for themselves and don't have to be spoon fed notes they can regurgitate in an exam. I want my students to have a love of my subjects not because I got them an A but because I promotee a love of literature, etc. No dumping down in my eyes just a broadening of experiences that will benefit them for life

coillsaille

PureClareGold wrote: »

We were prepared. Lots of schools have them done but called something else. There's great learning experiences in the oral presentation. Students loved it and learned loads from it. One of the most positive experiences in my classroom ever

So because there's a silver lining we should accept the cloud.

political analyst

In light of the 681-vote margin in favour of continuing industrial action, FF education spokesperson Thomas Byrne asked the ASTI to say how the vote broke down between working and retired teachers who are members of the union.

Do those on this forum who are in favour of continuing the campaign believe that it's appropriate for people who are no longer teaching to have a say in the issues that are at stake in this dispute?

km79

political analyst wrote: »

In light of the 681-vote margin in favour of continuing industrial action, FF education spokesperson Thomas Byrne asked the ASTI to say how the vote broke down between working and retired teachers who are members of the union.

Do those on this forum who are in favour of continuing the campaign believe that it's appropriate for people who are no longer teaching to have a say in the issues that are at stake in this dispute?

These people also voted to accept HRA
So what's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that right ?

political analyst

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Both answers are a cop out.

The numbers doing a proper Leaving Cert have been that high for years.

The JC system has not, until now, been significantly changed from the era when the numbers staying for the LC were not high.

political analyst

km79 wrote: »

These people also voted to accept HRA
So what's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that right ?

Why does the ASTI let members who are retired vote at all?

What indication is there that the retired ones swayed the HRA ballot result?

km79

political analyst wrote: »

Why does the ASTI let members who are retired vote at all?

What indication is there that the retired ones swayed the HRA ballot result?

What indication is there that they swayed this vote ?

km79

Going to bow out again for the foreseeable
Have no interest in engaging with the after hours brigade who come in after every ballot telling us about our working conditions and constantly derail the thread whilst genuine contributors get banned /stop posting .
Will be interesting to see how it all plays out next few weeks.

political analyst

km79 wrote: »

What indication is there that they swayed this vote ?

It depends on the margin of the result. 681 is relatively quite small. What was the size of the margin of the result of the second HRA ballot?

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

So the only value you can see in anything but if it's externally assessed? You don't see how students will benefit from learning how to research and do a presentation with fellow students? It must be externally assessed to be valid? I can't agree with you. I feel for you if you don't have the confidence to grade your students. We do it at term tests already. How exactly bus it being "dumbed down" as you put it? Why are you a teacher? Is it to only get externally assessed grades?
I want my students to be confident, independent people who can think for themselves and don't have to be spoon fed notes they can regurgitate in an exam. I want my students to have a love of my subjects not because I got them an A but because I promotee a love of literature, etc. No dumping down in my eyes just a broadening of experiences that will benefit them for life

Oh please what a load of horseshyte! Who are you,Bruton's mouthpiece!
Where did I say I see no value in their learning how to research and do a presentation with fellow students? Just point out where I said that!

And this "I feel for you if you don't have the confidence to grade your students." What kind of a nasty,snide remark is that!! And it's so typical of you Yes people!! I won't even dignify it with an answer! But what I will say is that you've bought the bible according to the Minister lock,stock and barrel and you had to make sure you got his lackeys in to be certain you were carrying out instructions to a T. All this obsession with group work and research and villifying any kind of rote learning.

Group work is part of a menu of learning strategies. As is research. As is rote learning for evidence such as learning quotes from a play.As is discussion.As is writing. As is speaking.As is homework. As are tests. Etc etc. You don't suddenly go all out for one strategy and vilify another. You vary. But at the end of the day you preserve the equality of anonymous external assessment.

But I wouldn't expect someone who slavishly does what they're told and buys into the latest fads to understand that.

Tone it down acequion, the name calling distracts from any points you may be trying to make.
MOD

political analyst

According to tomorrow's Examiner (See broadsheet.ie), the State Examinations Commission (SEC) might get around the ASTI assessment ban on the interpretation that ASTI members, even though they won't mark the CBA, are required under the curriculum to have students complete the project work, around which students would still be in a position to answer question in the assessment task, which is marked by the SEC.

acequion

political analyst wrote: »

In light of the 681-vote margin in favour of continuing industrial action, FF education spokesperson Thomas Byrne asked the ASTI to say how the vote broke down between working and retired teachers who are members of the union.

Do those on this forum who are in favour of continuing the campaign believe that it's appropriate for people who are no longer teaching to have a say in the issues that are at stake in this dispute?

No. I don't think retired teachers should have a vote.

coillsaille

Km79 has a point. Let's take a break folks, I'll see ye next week.

SligoBrewer

acequion wrote: »

No. I don't think retired teachers should have a vote.

I think they should if they wish to keep up their union membership and pay their fees. Is there a difference between retired teachers and teachers on career break/secondment?

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

Oh please what a load of horseshyte! Who are you,Bruton's mouthpiece!
Where did I say I see no value in their learning how to research and do a presentation with fellow students? Just point out where I said that!

And this "I feel for you if you don't have the confidence to grade your students." What kind of a nasty,snide remark is that!! And it's so typical of you Yes people!! I won't even dignify it with an answer! But what I will say is that you've bought the bible according to the Minister lock,stock and barrel and you had to make sure you got his lackeys in to be certain you were carrying out instructions to a T. All this obsession with group work and research and villifying any kind of rote learning.

Group work is part of a menu of learning strategies. As is research. As is rote learning for evidence such as learning quotes from a play.As is discussion.As is writing. As is speaking.As is homework. As are tests. Etc etc. You don't suddenly go all out for one strategy and vilify another. You vary. But at the end of the day you preserve the equality of anonymous external assessment.

But I wouldn't expect someone who slavishly does what they're told and buys into the latest fads to understand that.

Rote learning doesn't mean learning quotes off by heart in my eyes. I'm talking about learning of pre prepared answers, essays from some notes book, answers that they have not worked on themselves.
What do you mean by the ministers "lackeys"? I have no problem in looking for help to aid my improvement as a teacher. I have no problem in working with other professionals who are willing to share best practices.
Junior Cycle supports all these types of assessment you've just mentioned. Maybe if you asked them into your school the work you're doing already could be further vindicated and you might find areas for development.
However if the only way you feel your work can be validated is by external assessment then yes i do feel sorry for you.

Chilli Con Kearney

political analyst wrote: »

In light of the 681-vote margin in favour of continuing industrial action, FF education spokesperson Thomas Byrne asked the ASTI to say how the vote broke down between working and retired teachers who are members of the union.

Do those on this forum who are in favour of continuing the campaign believe that it's appropriate for people who are no longer teaching to have a say in the issues that are at stake in this dispute?

681 you say? That's a significant proportion. 5% if you are correct.

I'll tell you what. Why don't you, as an outsider, tell us how to do our jobs. Tell us what policies you want, how you'd like the education sector to be organised and we will sign right up. I'm sure you have ideas from your Alma mater, which you so often refer to. As well as all those other secondary schools you've been involved in.

You're way out of your depth at this stage. <But obviously getting a kick from just trolling away.> Quite pathetic really.




Just use the report button if you suspect trolling thanks... also try out the ignore function... this forum isn't closed to non-teachers also.
Thanks
Mod

Chilli Con Kearney

PureClareGold wrote: »

Rote learning doesn't mean learning quotes off by heart in my eyes. I'm talking about learning of pre prepared answers, essays from some notes book, answers that they have not worked on themselves.
What do you mean by the ministers "lackeys"? I have no problem in looking for help to aid my improvement as a teacher. I have no problem in working with other professionals who are willing to share best practices.
Junior Cycle supports all these types of assessment you've just mentioned. Maybe if you asked them into your school the work you're doing already could be further vindicated and you might find areas for development.
However if the only way you feel your work can be validated is by external assessment then yes i do feel sorry for you.

This is an honest and serious question. Why are you in the union if you're going to ignore their policies, directives, etc which are based on the members votes? Just save yourself the cash and do what you want outside of any rules, etc.

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

Rote learning doesn't mean learning quotes off by heart in my eyes. I'm talking about learning of pre prepared answers, essays from some notes book, answers that they have not worked on themselves.
What do you mean by the ministers "lackeys"? I have no problem in looking for help to aid my improvement as a teacher. I have no problem in working with other professionals who are willing to share best practices.
Junior Cycle supports all these types of assessment you've just mentioned. Maybe if you asked them into your school the work you're doing already could be further vindicated and you might find areas for development.
However if the only way you feel your work can be validated is by external assessment then yes i do feel sorry for you.

Actually I feel sorry for you.

And you have broken the union's directive by bringing in the JCT people. Maybe this union isn't for you.

PureClareGold

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

This is an honest and serious question. Why are you in the union if you're going to ignore their policies, directives, etc which are based on the members votes? Just save yourself the cash and do what you want outside of any rules, etc.

Well if a parent decides to sue me personally because I cost their daughter 10% of their state grade at least the union will pay the costs

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

Actually I feel sorry for you.

And you have broken the union's directive by bringing in the JCT people. Maybe this union isn't for you.

So! What happens to me and the many more like me?

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

Well if a parent decides to sue me personally because I cost their daughter 10% of their state grade at least the union will pay the costs

So you're just in the union for yourself then. Quite disgusting really. Hopefully the union will catch up with you and people like you.

acequion

SligoBrewer wrote: »

I think they should if they wish to keep up their union membership and pay their fees. Is there a difference between retired teachers and teachers on career break/secondment?

I think there is SligoBrewer though it's a good point. Those on break /secondment will come back,while those who are retired are gone.Teaching is changing at a rapid pace and a teacher who retired 10 years ago would be quite astounded if back now.They really don't have a clue what they're voting on and could actually sway an important ballot.

I don't have any problem with them being members and value their input in many way but working conditions should only concern those working, in my opinion.

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

So you're just in the union for yourself then. Quite disgusting really. Hopefully the union will catch up with you and people like you.

To be honest with you it's the kids that sit in front of me every day I think of. I enjoy the little wins every day. The student who may never shine on one day in June under severe presume where everything is on the line. I value seeing them grow and flourish at different stages and develop into well rounded individuals who can participate in their communities.
Not about how many As or the pay packet for me.
There have always been lesser paid teachers throughout my many years of teaching. When I started I had 22 hours. I was paid a lot less than the teacher in the room next to me who was also teaching 22 hours but happened to be at it for 20 years more than me.
I just want to the best opportunities for my students.

Inspector Coptoor

PureClareGold wrote: »

So the only value you can see in anything but if it's externally assessed? You don't see how students will benefit from learning how to research and do a presentation with fellow students? It must be externally assessed to be valid? I can't agree with you. I feel for you if you don't have the confidence to grade your students. We do it at term tests already. How exactly bus it being "dumbed down" as you put it? Why are you a teacher? Is it to only get externally assessed grades?
I want my students to be confident, independent people who can think for themselves and don't have to be spoon fed notes they can regurgitate in an exam. I want my students to have a love of my subjects not because I got them an A but because I promotee a love of literature, etc. No dumping down in my eyes just a broadening of experiences that will benefit them for life

Garbage post full of conjecture.

Must try harder Inspector!
Mod

Inspector Coptoor

PureClareGold wrote: »

To be honest with you it's the kids that sit in front of me every day I think of. I enjoy the little wins every day. The student who may never shine on one day in June under severe presume where everything is on the line. I value seeing them grow and flourish at different stages and develop into well rounded individuals who can participate in their communities.
Not about how many As or the pay packet for me.
There have always been lesser paid teachers throughout my many years of teaching. When I started I had 22 hours. I was paid a lot less than the teacher in the room next to me who was also teaching 22 hours but happened to be at it for 20 years more than me.
I just want to the best opportunities for my students.

What about the pressure of the LC?
College exams?
Professional exams?
Life pressure?

Do you want all kids to be brought up in a vaccuous bubble?

Get a grip

StewartGriffin

So many immature posts in the last 20 pages of this thread.

If those views represented a majority of teachers I would despair for my children's education prospects.

Thankfully they don't even represent the majority of ASTI teachers.

Such crowing and bleating from the kind of kids who wear a Palestinian scarf into an English class. You know the type, we've all come across them.

Quite apt as Animal Farm is on the Junior Cert prospectus this year.

Just stick to the thread topic Stewie.
MOD

Grueller

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

What about the pressure of the LC?
College exams?
Professional exams?
Life pressure?

Do you want all kids to be brought up in a vaccuous bubble?

Get a grip

To quote A boy named Sue
"Son this world is rough and if a man's gonna make it he's gotta be tough and I knew I wouldn't be there to help you along. So I gave you that name and I said goodbye, I knew you'd have to get tough or die, and it's that name that helped to make you strong."
I am not a teacher as I have said before, I am a counsellor and specifically involved in addiction services. I agree 100% Inspector Coptoor. In the middle classes especially, we are creating a generation who are being nursed through life and protected from all ills and ailments. They are not experiencing failure on any level, be it sport, academically whatever. They are never dealing with adversity.
Now, someday they will enter a world where nobody is there to nurture or protect them, they will be outside a classroom of well rounded individuals and in the real world. A boss or a rival or somebody will shatter their perception of the world. The problem is that they will not and do not have the coping skills to handle this. I am already seeing this and as I said it is mainly moddle class kids who have been protected from everything.
What has this to do with the debate about the new Junior Cert? School based profiles of achievement. In my opinion if everyone is special, then nobody is. That may sound harsh, but so is the real world.

SligoBrewer

acequion wrote: »

I think there is SligoBrewer though it's a good point. Those on break /secondment will come back,while those who are retired are gone.Teaching is changing at a rapid pace and a teacher who retired 10 years ago would be quite astounded if back now.They really don't have a clue what they're voting on and could actually sway an important ballot.

I don't have any problem with them being members and value their input in many way but working conditions should only concern those working, in my opinion.

They've still been in the classroom for 30+ years. If they're willing enough to keep informed of the working conditions and industrial relations issues it is more than enough grounds to have a say, especially when their experience in the classroom is compared to the minister for Education and his civil servants.

I'd like to let them come into the staffroom to collect their vote if they wish to do so. But look, I'm both young and probably wrong.