Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Why does the ASTI let members who are retired vote at all?

What indication is there that the retired ones swayed the HRA ballot result?

Questioning what way retired members voted is just muddying the waters. There seems to be an implication that they all vote the same when nobody really knows. Maybe it was left handers who 'swayed the vote'.. I think a drop of just under 30% for the no's would appear to indicate that it was a mixed bunch.

From what i gather retired members ARE allowed vote if there are pension implications. If there aren't then they can't. I think it was Ed Byrne who mentioned that yesterday.
Seems fair to me!

mirrorwall14

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Questioning what way retired members voted is just muddying the waters. There seems to be an implication that they all vote the same when nobody really knows. Maybe it was left handers who 'swayed the vote'.. I think a drop of just under 30% for the no's would appear to indicate that it was a mixed bunch.

From what i gather retired members ARE allowed vote if there are pension implications. If there aren't then they can't. I think it was Ed Byrne who mentioned that yesterday.
Seems fair to me!

It was Ed Byrne and yes he said they only get a vote when it is relevant. If the vote had been purely on Junior Cylce they wouldn't have had a vote. They get it because HRA is an agreement covering issues relevant to their pensions

MrJones1973

In terms of English I have contacted jct support a few times for clarification. I was particularly worried that if it had been. Yes I would have been running about trying to get these assessments done in a short period of time.
Did I break a directive? I don't know or care. English teachers in firing line and easy for others who are not standing in front of a class trying to figure a new course out.
I have a serious problem with new curriculum. It's dumbing down but legally I'm obligated to teach it and I was morally obligated to be ready if a yes vote had occurred
As for issues of discipline in a union I would be interested to know if anybody was ever disciplined by Asti ? A Friend of mine reported several colleagues for a breach. In the end nothing happened to them and he felt a chilly wind in his staffroom

MrJones1973

Grueller wrote: »

To quote A boy named Sue
"Son this world is rough and if a man's gonna make it he's gotta be tough and I knew I wouldn't be there to help you along. So I gave you that name and I said goodbye, I knew you'd have to get tough or die, and it's that name that helped to make you strong."
I am not a teacher as I have said before, I am a counsellor and specifically involved in addiction services. I agree 100% Inspector Coptoor. In the middle classes especially, we are creating a generation who are being nursed through life and protected from all ills and ailments. They are not experiencing failure on any level, be it sport, academically whatever. They are never dealing with adversity.
Now, someday they will enter a world where nobody is there to nurture or protect them, they will be outside a classroom of well rounded individuals and in the real world. A boss or a rival or somebody will shatter their perception of the world. The problem is that they will not and do not have the coping skills to handle this. I am already seeing this and as I said it is mainly moddle class kids who have been protected from everything.
What has this to do with the debate about the new Junior Cert? School based profiles of achievement. In my opinion if everyone is special, then nobody is. That may sound harsh, but so is the real world.

What a great post. I have often been direct to 17/18 years olds and felt that there was no point being gentle to them,unless aware they have serious troubles . An odd roar or telling them they are a waste of my time is no harm to them . I am always willing to go out of my way for those who want help but I have a strong suspicion that the self help industry and media are fueling a victim culture. Suddenly half the kids are ADHD and suffering from anxiety!

PureClareGold

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

What about the pressure of the LC?
College exams?
Professional exams?
Life pressure?

Do you want all kids to be brought up in a vaccuous bubble?

Get a grip

I don't want my students concerned about college exams when they are 15 years of age? I don't get any degree of satisfaction in telling a 15 year old they have "failed". I want all kids to be brought up believing they have talents that are valued and that they can contribute to their community in a positive fashion. What's wrong with that? I have seen students enjoy creating essays as they have the time and space to edit and redraft them. This skill WILL help them in the LC and will take some of the pressure off of them for that terrible one shot at life exam. They will be better prepared to cope in the real world with the skills that will have built up over their schooling now.
I've seen too many 500+ pointers drop out of college because they've been spoon fed notes and not given the freedom to develop life skills because what some teachers and many of society value is a young person being tortured in an exam hall for 5+ hours

Inspector Coptoor

PureClareGold wrote: »

I don't want my students concerned about college exams when they are 15 years of age? I don't get any degree of satisfaction in telling a 15 year old they have "failed". I want all kids to be brought up believing they have talents that are valued and that they can contribute to their community in a positive fashion. What's wrong with that? I have seen students enjoy creating essays as they have the time and space to edit and redraft them. This skill WILL help them in the LC and will take some of the pressure off of them for that terrible one shot at life exam. They will be better prepared to cope in the real world with the skills that will have built up over their schooling now.
I've seen too many 500+ pointers drop out of college because they've been spoon fed notes and not given the freedom to develop life skills because what some teachers and many of society value is a young person being tortured in an exam hall for 5+ hours

We learn from our failures.

Students should not be afraid of failure.

I encourage failure everyday in the classroom.
The Beckett quote of:
"Ever tried, Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."
Is up in my classroom.

Exams are not torture.
They test ones capabilities and are a necessary evil in afraid.

We cannot allow our students to be cosseted.
This is what has led to generation snowflake.

I urge you to rethink your approach

Powerhouse

PureClareGold wrote: »

I don't get any degree of satisfaction in telling a 15 year old they have "failed". I want all kids to be brought up believing they have talents that are valued and that they can contribute to their community in a positive fashion.

Why said anything about getting satisfaction from telling people they have failed? Has anyone actually said that? However I don't get much satisfaction either from pretending not showing up for school quite often, disrupting when in class, not having the requisite equipment/books for class, looking to go to the toilet solely to go on their phones, and that poor standard work is actually brilliant is an honest way to prepare people for life in the real world either.

Powerhouse

I wonder if some of the people who question retired ASTI members voting did the same when the TUI votes in the past included third-level people voting on second-level issues, not to mind the possibility of retired members also having a vote in those situations?

MrJones1973

Powerhouse wrote: »

Why said anything about getting satisfaction from telling people they have failed? Has anyone actually said that? However I don't get much satisfaction either from pretending not showing up for school quite often, disrupting when in class, not having the requisite equipment/books for class, looking to go to the toilet solely to go on their phones, and that poor standard work is actually brilliant is an honest way to prepare people for life in the real world either.

I tend to agree with all the above but I do think a real world approach should roughly start at 15. The JC was blown out of proportion (the old one) and needed to be watered down in terms of impact but not content. No problem with removing word failed. The kids know the Truth . The main problem for English is kids don't read anymore and schools need library funding. Instead we get watered down curriculum.Though an oral English test is a great idea
We all know a lot of pLC courses are bull**** and a good proportion of school going population are written off by the establishment. They just want them minded. If they were really serious the establishment would work towards economic equality which is a precursor to educational achievement. You can bang on about Finland's education system all you like but at heart its success has a good deal to do with the fact it's a very equal society

Icsics

Interesting article in the Indo....external examiners to be brought in for the English assessment

franktennis

I'm worried about the redundancy issue. If a teacher is redeployed to a school with Asti members then if that Asti teacher is chosen then based on the result on Thursday that teacher will be made redundant as Asti members can't be redeployed. Yes I know blue murder would ensue but Brutan is on a mission here to make an example of the union. He also said yesterday on Newstalk that ASTi have also lost the ability to attend the new public sector pay talks with this result. Ed Byrne was unaware of this when he spoke after. It will be very interesting to find out at the SC meeting the next course of action.

Powerhouse

Icsics wrote: »

Interesting article in the Indo....external examiners to be brought in for the English assessment

It's funny, if the boot was on the other foot we'd have people on here saying this was a defeat for the ASTI. External assessment has been one of the cornerstones of the ASTI's position on the JC. I presume those same people will acknowledge that this is in fact (albeit unwittingly on the government's part) adhering to the ASTI's own position on the JC. And also acknowledge that this external assessment will mean that the ASTI schools' students will now have a more meaningful and integrity-founded mark in the JC. I won't hold my breath on that.

Presumably those phenomenal hypocrites who run the country will also, without any sense of irony - as they did with when they advertised for paid S&S recruits a few months back - propose to pay these external examiners while the TUI teachers do it for free! Honestly, if you made this sh*t up, people would laugh at you.

I haven't read the piece but if it's in the Indo it could be plain lies or just another government threat. But it is, maybe without realising it, doing nothing less than what the ASTI has looked for in the JC reform - objective external assessment.

Powerhouse

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The JC was blown out of proportion (the old one) and needed to be watered down in terms of impact but not content.

There is an alternative argument that the JC has been stripped of relevance only because there is a delusion in the educational establishment that everyone has the same educational prospects and everyone should attend a post-LC third-level course irrespective of actual attainment or measured ability.

Back in the day people left after the JC/Inter and went to work quite productively in trades (where curiously there is a shortage now). It also meant that in cases such as my own, at LC level you tended to have people who were suitable in the classroom and the general experience for everyone, both for those in school and those who left was immeasurably better.

I had an Honours LC class last year and about ten minutes of every class was spent placating a particular student who in the end dropped to Ordinary Level (where b he belonged) and subsequently went on to do an apprenticeship where I have no doubt he will do very well as it will cater for his abilities. Yet, he cost other people in the class points in the LC. Unfortunately, as with many things, education policy is currently being driven ideologically rather then practically.

judeboy101

Just talking to a 'man in the know', SEC have plans to externally access the 10%.

evolving_doors

Icsics wrote: »

Interesting article in the Indo....external examiners to be brought in for the English assessment

Well that's a win for the ASTI then! At least there will be some bit of standardisation/oversight if you have the same examiner traveling around to different schools.

Although the devil is in the detail with these tidbits from the indo. (beware of Greeks baring gifts and all that).

Are they advertising for examiners now, they'd want to get a move on?
Is there a process of appeal?
Are ASTI members precluded from applying?
I wonder will the marks from ASTI schools be moderated against the marks from TUI schools. What if there is a large disparity?

Would that mean you could have a TUI teacher seconded to examine... meanwhile they have to do it for free in their own school.


I think this is just fluff put out to placate anxious parents in Bruton's constituency (remember he graciously took the time to ask them with his recent door-to-door expedition during the last union action).

The only way he'll act is if there's a chance he might loose/gain local votes. This has little to do with 'making Irish education great again' as he is so fond of promising.

I wonder if the Language teachers refused to undertake orals would the SEC step up in a similar fashion.

PureClareGold

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just talking to a 'man in the know', SEC have plans to externally access the 10%.

The 10% is externally assessed already. Students complete their Collection of texts. That finishes that CBA. The assessment task happens in the classroom where the students fill in a booklet that is sent to Sec to be marked. Ibis assessed already outside. Just takes place in school which is no different to the CSPE action project or any other subject that has project work. Your "person in the know" doesn't seem to known the process that well

judeboy101

Back on topic please. Ta
Mod

judeboy101

PureClareGold wrote: »

The 10% is externally assessed already. Students complete their Collection of texts. That finishes that CBA. The assessment task happens in the classroom where the students fill in a booklet that is sent to Sec to be marked. Ibis assessed already outside. Just takes place in school which is no different to the CSPE action project or any other subject that has project work. Your "person in the know" doesn't seem to known the process that well

He said sec will hire people to invigilate the process, so it will be fully externally accessed, under sec contracts schools become sec while it happens dame as in June.

PureClareGold

judeboy101 wrote: »

He said sec will hire people to invigilate the process, so it will be fully externally accessed, under sec contracts schools become sec while it happens dame as in June.

But how will an outsider know which stimuli to choose from, how will they know which prompts to pick that best suit the students in that particular class? How will an outsider be able to help and guide the students in their reflection in the first class? It's not just an exam where you can go in and waffle. Just shows how misinformed many are about the assessment task

judeboy101

PureClareGold wrote: »

But how will an outsider know which stimuli to choose from, how will they know which prompts to pick that best suit the students in that particular class? How will an outsider be able to help and guide the students in their reflection in the first class? It's not just an exam where you can go in and waffle. Just shows how misinformed many are about the assessment task

How will an outsider know that little jimmy's dad is going through chemo, or little Mary just got made homeless, or little mustafa's dad is chairman of the BOM?

feardeas

Ate we seriously equating invigilating with assessing. Not to mention the 10% was always going to be independently assessed.

The fact is the assessment is based on the CBA. This only serves to heighten pressure on ASTI.

Fiddlesticks.

Powerhouse

PureClareGold wrote: »

But how will an outsider know which stimuli to choose from, how will they know which prompts to pick that best suit the students in that particular class? How will an outsider be able to help and guide the students in their reflection in the first class? It's not just an exam where you can go in and waffle. Just shows how misinformed many are about the assessment task

But none of this matters to the SEC. Someone can be a JC French examiner without being able to speak French, so there's no reason why this should be any different.

mtoutlemonde

Powerhouse wrote: »

But none of this matters to the SEC. Someone can be a JC French examiner without being able to speak French, so there's no reason why this should be any different.

Could you explain this please?

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

In terms of English I have contacted jct support a few times for clarification. I was particularly worried that if it had been. Yes I would have been running about trying to get these assessments done in a short period of time.
Did I break a directive? I don't know or care. English teachers in firing line and easy for others who are not standing in front of a class trying to figure a new course out.
I have a serious problem with new curriculum. It's dumbing down but legally I'm obligated to teach it and I was morally obligated to be ready if a yes vote had occurred
As for issues of discipline in a union I would be interested to know if anybody was ever disciplined by Asti ? A Friend of mine reported several colleagues for a breach. In the end nothing happened to them and he felt a chilly wind in his staffroom

Disappointed with you,Mrwhite. There would have been training if a Yes.

Granted that would have been a huge pain in the ass,stressful,running around like headless chickens to get the assessment done etc if it had passed,but everyone was in the same boat.

Ok so you had left the union and so didn't technically break the directive but for those that were members and did that, well yes they did break the directive.

What on earth is the point of being in a union,voting for something,having a directive and then having everybody going off doing what they like?

judeboy101

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Could you explain this please?

I don't teach accountancy, have no qualifications in it, but one year I corrected a bunch for the mocks company as a favour. I put that on my application to sec and they hired me. I could prob do the same in Arabic if I wanted to, or Japanese.

Powerhouse

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Could you explain this please?

The SEC does not even ask the name of the person who carries out the task of examiner never mind establishing that they are qualified and capable of doing the job. There is no verification process whatsoever, no standards, no invigilation of any description.

PureClareGold

judeboy101 wrote: »

How will an outsider know that little jimmy's dad is going through chemo, or little Mary just got made homeless, or little mustafa's dad is chairman of the BOM?

Up until your last point I felt you were moving towards Junior Cycle Reform which places the student at the centre. A student who would be going through what you outlined would be helped in achieving the best they could. There is flexibility built in to the assessments that allows teachers to give their students the best chance of achieving their true potential. In the current system a student who was going through such issues would have to still rely on performing on one day in June when all of this might be too much to bear for them.
Some people on here would seem to think that that is character building and at least they learned they aren't a snowflake but at 15 years of age I don't agree with that approach

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

Disappointed with you,Mrwhite. There would have been training if a Yes.

Granted that would have been a huge pain in the ass,stressful,running around like headless chickens to get the assessment done etc if it had passed,but everyone was in the same boat.

Ok so you had left the union and so didn't technically break the directive but for those that were members and did that, well yes they did break the directive.

What on earth is the point of being in a union,voting for something,having a directive and then having everybody going off doing what they like?

Because people care about their students maybe? How many schools have people filling posts of responsibility as year heads etc that is breaking directives? Directives are being broken all the time and nothing is done by the union about it so English teachers did what was best for their students

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

Because people care about their students maybe? How many schools have people filling posts of responsibility as year heads etc that is breaking directives? Directives are being broken all the time and nothing is done by the union about it so English teachers did what was best for their students

PureClareGold wrote: »

Up until your last point I felt you were moving towards Junior Cycle Reform which places the student at the centre. A student who would be going through what you outlined would be helped in achieving the best they could. There is flexibility built in to the assessments that allows teachers to give their students the best chance of achieving their true potential. In the current system a student who was going through such issues would have to still rely on performing on one day in June when all of this might be too much to bear for them.
Some people on here would seem to think that that is character building and at least they learned they aren't a snowflake but at 15 years of age I don't agree with that approach

Jesus,wept, are you Mother Teresa incarnate? The second emboldened bit is the greatest heap of rubbish since Bill Clinton publicly declared,"I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Yet everyone knew what he was getting from Monica Lewinski. Likewise this utter shyte about placing students at the centre and teachers caring about students is every bit as hypocritical.

Students have ALWAYS been at the CENTRE of the education process. Teachers have ALWAYS cared deeply about their students. However this nonsense that they are all precious snowflakes and that they absolutely cannot be allowed to fail and that they must be having fun in class is exactly that,nonsense.

Now before you decide to patronise and demonise me as you are with everyone who disagrees with you,let me tell you that I love when my students have fun in my class. But I make sure they realise that they are there to learn and to be educated,even if that means it won't always go their way. I also care very, very much about them and do everything I can to help and support them but that does not mean I shield them from life's cruel realities.I think that would be cruel.

And as for your remark about breaking directives, I don't know of anybody in my school or region who breaks directives.And as for sanctions not being applied, thanks for giving me an important point to bring up at the next branch meeting or perhaps email to head office.

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

Jesus,wept, are you Mother Teresa incarnate? The second emboldened bit is the greatest heap of rubbish since Bill Clinton publicly declared,"I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Yet everyone knew what he was getting from Monica Lewinski. Likewise this utter shyte about placing students at the centre and teachers caring about students is every bit as hypocritical.

Students have ALWAYS been at the CENTRE of the education process. Teachers have ALWAYS cared deeply about their students. However this nonsense that they are all precious snowflakes and that they absolutely cannot be allowed to fail and that they must be having fun in class is exactly that,nonsense.

Now before you decide to patronise and demonise me as you are with everyone who disagrees with you,let me tell you that I love when my students have fun in my class. But I make sure they realise that they are there to learn and to be educated,even if that means it won't always go their way. I also care very, very much about them and do everything I can to help and support them but that does not mean I shield them from life's cruel realities.I think that would be cruel.

And as for your remark about breaking directives, I don't know of anybody in my school or region who breaks directives.And as for sanctions not being applied, thanks for giving me an important point to bring up at the next branch meeting or perhaps email to head office.

Great. It would make very interesting reading to see how many people in schools have broken union directives. In my school between posts and junior cycle English I would guess 30% of the staff have. Particularly posts is very obvious year head retires who has a post, replaced by someone who hasn't.

Who said anything about shielding them from life's cruelties. Teaching them how to improve their pieces of work, how to communicate effectively will all help them cope and learn from life's cruelties in a much better fashion than you've one shot on one given day and if it doesn't go well for buoy then tough ducky