Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

amacca

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If teachers were truely underpaid then there wouldn't be an oversupply of them.

Very simplistic....you must realise there are more issues at play here including legacy issues.

In fact there may not be a direct link between an oversupply of teachers here in this little country and the rate of pay at all or it may be only a small part of why there is an oversupply.

You only have to look at the price of agricultural land here versus its true economic value to realise how simplistic thinking like the above doesn't paint a useful picture at all.......

It could be related to lower barriers to entry in recent years due to providing more PME programs....cash cow for 3rd level I suspect

It could be related to the applicability of so many degree areas to an area like teaching leading naturally to a larger pool of graduates being potential candidates

Related to the above it could be the notion that a majority of irish families have now that the natural progression for their son/daughter is to university rather than go and train for a trade etc....we have a very large percentage of people going off to third level vs other alternatives in this country and it may not be popular to say but that leads to a number of course in every college that are there to make up the numbers or alternatively number of students that are there to make up the numbers....put a bit too simplistically....too many graduates could lead to too many potential applicants for everything but morseso for an area the knowledge gained in lots of diverse courses can be applied to a role.


It could be related to widespread perceptions that the pay and/or conditions are good....notice I said perceptions here because its all relative

There could be an element of tradition within families

It could that many women see it as a role where it is easier to balance bringing up a child in

It could be that there is a lag between what the perception of a job is like and what the true reality is like coalesce......I expect when that gap narrows you'll see less people considering it

It could be the combination of all these factors or others

etc etc

I also think if the Govt and some of the contributors in this forum alone got their way it won't be long until staff shortages are such an issue extra pay/incentives and "inspirational" TV/multimedia campaigns will start to appear.....take a look at the UK to see the way the role is headed here and think if thats any better for your child holistically or educationally

Which brings me to people wondering why teachers on here are defensive...TBH I think they're not..I think they're irritated at hearing the same guff levelled at them day in and day out and why wouldn't they be when some of the most critical contributions are at best unfounded criticism and almost none of the points made in their favour (and backed up with statistics/oecd reports etc) are even acknowledged.....wouldn't anyone be defensive when the likes of Ed Walsh's misleading/sometimes blatantly false rhetoric and nearly always insulting views etc represent the views of so many and are constantly thrown in their faces

MrJones1973

I think it best to avoid trolls like gadge and opphrimer or whatever he calls himself. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing . Wastes your time and irritates the pig
I do believe we need to have private sector perspectives as teachers can be insular. It annoyed me to have teachers married to teachers moaning about double whammy of strike income loss. I had a spouse unemployed for a year 12 months. Try that on for size but the private sector moths these forums attract are not up to much.
Just put the troll warning up and move on.

amacca

Godge wrote: »

Yes, I do have experience of industrial relations and institutions like the Equality Tribunal and the Labour Court but I won't say more than that on a forum like this.

And thats fair enough... I really just wanted to know what sort of place your view on this was coming from not trying to identify or be overly critical there

Godge wrote: »

You can choose to disagree with me - that is what discussion boards are for

Damn right I can..and still do btw:D

Godge wrote: »

but saying "I call bull**** on that one" isn't the most eloquent response. Childish puns on AIDS isn't exactly high-quality debating either

Ah cmon now....were all big boys and girls here......but if it upsets you Ill try improve the standard in future.

Godge wrote: »

Teachers may believe that the Government "have acted like dishonourable tricksters on the SS issue" but that is a naive response if you ask me.

No......they have not paid out for services rendered and they had plenty of time to put alternative arrangements in place when teachers refused to work because the Govt refused to pay them for work done....last Mondays closure is down to the Govt...thats not naieve imo and no amount of legalese can hide the truth of the matter

btw I dont represent teachers and "teachers" as a group may not feel as I do I'm only giving my own views here

Godge wrote: »

Thinking you could walk away from national agreements and still get the S&S money was a very foolish idea

Now that to me is no higher a level of quality in debate than AIDs above...I don't think its foolish at all to expect to get paid for work done as per an agreement....and I think calling a group foolish for expecting this is insulting and wrong.....

Godge wrote: »

anyone could have seen that the Government had no option but to remove the payment once the ASTI reneged on the agreement negotiated on their behalf.

Thats a misrepresentation imo....they didn't renege on Haddington which is the agreement that promised to restore the SS money...they worked SS for free for three years on the understanding the payment would be returned..it wasn't they gave lots of notice that they would then have to withdraw SS including working it for free and then extending this free period again...Govt did nothing to make alternative arrangements

Godge wrote: »

Teachers talks about good faith, but they sent the PSC in to negotiate the LRA on their behalf and then they rejected it, that was an act of bad faith. Either ASTI got some very bad advice or they read the signals very badly.

I confess a level of ignorance on the above but I'm not sure how not signing an agreement whose terms doesn't suit your membership for a number of reasons is an act of bad faith............Thats not entering into an agreement because you fundamentally don't agree with it imo.

Godge wrote: »

Now the Government aren't entirely blameless.

That would suggest you think the majority of the blame lies with the teachers...hmmmm

Godge wrote: »

The Croke Park hours are a poor idea.

Yes..we agree on that one....but maybe not for the same set of reasons

Godge wrote: »

There is a need for greater accountability from teachers more teamwork

Perhaps..it depends very much on the form that accountability takes and how you measure performance + how many hours (per week/per year/per day) it takes to do this

+ There is just as much of a need to make students, parents and various state agencies much much more accountable if this is the case....theres no use hanging all the accountability on the person with the least autonomy or authority in the system as in case you haven't noticed teachers are very much not kings of their own classroom anymore and haven't been for many years...in fact in some places little Johnny or Britney can be king or queen for a term or a year or indefinitely (theres that word again)

Godge wrote: »

more reforms like the Junior Cert

You must be joking...check out the new JC science syllabus and tell me that is reform.......it bears much more of a resemblance to yellow packing (or possibly white labelling if you want to put a more modern spin on it)

I will reserve outright judgment on this for another couple of years or ten and it will be evident how much of a reform it is

Godge wrote: »

more in-school activity other than teaching, but putting it into bean-counting Croke Park hours was poor.

OK as long as you realise this will eventually erode many of the "activities" many teachers engaged in on a voluntary basis as theres only so much one person is capable of doing during the working week...moreso when your week consists of overcrowded classrooms, poor framework for dealing with continuous disruption and some of the longest contact hours in the OECD

Godge wrote: »

The idea of a teacher as "king in the classroom" is long gone in enlightened teaching environments, but it is preserved in the contractual and other arrangements that teachers in Ireland have

You are out of touch if you think any teacher is King of the classroom now with serfs and vassals receiving learning should the king deign to grant it to them......they weren't king of the classrooms when I went to school for gods sake

You are also conflating pay along with conditions with being autonomous and in a position of absolute authority in a classroom...theres very little relationship between the two (pay and being king just to be clear) and the conditions and legal framework most subject teachers work in means they are very much not Kings of the classroom as you somewhat anachronistically put it

Godge wrote: »

The next few years will be turbulent and difficult for teachers but if they play it right, they can be rewarding as well.

I agree.......I think playing it right would be using any and every means necessary not to get walked all over as a group imo

spurious

Warning for Mrwhite1970 - backseat modding.

Reminding posters to please 'play the ball, not the man' in their responses.

evolving_doors

Godge wrote: »

It is not only teachers that can have views on that issue. There are many others - ETB officials, Departmental inspectors, BoM members, etc. - who can have a considered view on whether teachers are underemployed and overpaid, before you even consider parents, journalists or students whose views may be less informed. Carrying the idea of "teacher knows best" out of the classroom, as your post appears to do is not the way to win hearts and minds among the public.

I am considering opening another thread - not sure if it should be here or in the feedback forum - about the moderation in this forum and whether it reflects the defensive mindset of teachers and the reluctance to consider other opinions as valid.

You tell me, Who do you think knows best about getting paid as a beginning teacher?

Parents?
Journalists?
ETB officials?
Pupils?
Dept. Inspectors?


Have I forgotten anyone?

feardeas

So first deduction gone about €60 net. Something like €153 gross. Amazing how it dented their tax take as well.

Heard some interesting things about improvements in CP hours and things like that being discussed.

Anyone think there will be another opt out of S and S? What is the net effect of that cut? Think it's about 60 gross so could be less than 30 net. I'd be fairly conflicted. Can't see the JMB agreeing to it, assuming they will be consulted, could be hard to get the people in. Anyway suppose time will tell. Hope it gets wrapped up and a ballot can be held this dude of Xmas.

evolving_doors

Godge wrote: »

It is not only teachers that can have views on that issue. There are many others - ETB officials, Departmental inspectors, BoM members, etc. - who can have a considered view on whether teachers are underemployed and overpaid, before you even consider parents, journalists or students whose views may be less informed. Carrying the idea of "teacher knows best" out of the classroom, as your post appears to do is not the way to win hearts and minds among the public.

I am considering opening another thread - not sure if it should be here or in the feedback forum - about the moderation in this forum and whether it reflects the defensive mindset of teachers and the reluctance to consider other opinions as valid.

By all means, knock yourself out.
Member has been warned for breaching the forum charter.
Mod

judeboy101

feardeas wrote: »

So first deduction gone about €60 net. Something like €153 gross. Amazing how it dented their tax take as well.

Heard some interesting things about improvements in CP hours and things like that being discussed.

Anyone think there will be another opt out of S and S? What is the net effect of that cut? Think it's about 60 gross so could be less than 30 net. I'd be fairly conflicted. Can't see the JMB agreeing to it, assuming they will be consulted, could be hard to get the people in. Anyway suppose time will tell. Hope it gets wrapped up and a ballot can be held this dude of Xmas.

I'm confused. We were only down one day (confirmed by ringing payroll) as Monday could not be docked due to all letters not being processed. Yet my opt out was reduced by 1/14th. So how could they process my opt out without a letter (or lack of letter) to say iwas still 'doing' s&s?

Notorious

Godge wrote: »

There are many others - ETB officials, Departmental inspectors, BoM members, etc. - who can have a considered view on whether teachers are underemployed and overpaid

I wouldn't consider any of their opinions to have any weight, especially the ETB officials. Maybe the Dept. Inspector, but based on my experience with inspectors a lot of them are living in their own bubble.

judeboy101

Any soundings from talks last week? Judging by the noise from the other unions and the infighting among the gra id hate to think we'd end up on the long finger

Villain

Interesting article by Colm O'Rourke today in Indo, I know he has no love for ASTI but he is a principle.

judeboy101

Villain wrote: »

Interesting article by Colm O'Rourke today in Indo, I know he has no love for ASTI but he is a principle.

He's a principal with no principles

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

He's a principal with no principles

True but it's hard argue with most of what he says in that article

Villain

judeboy101 wrote: »

He's a principal with no principles

He's not an ASTI member so I'm not sure I follow you there?

I think he makes some good points, it will be interesting to see what the ASTI has planned as their next move is after they meet Anna Perry.

judeboy101

Villain wrote: »

He's not an ASTI member so I'm not sure I follow you there?

I think he makes some good points, it will be interesting to see what the ASTI has planned as their next move is after they meet Anna Perry.

It was a delightful play on the fact you spelt 'principal' incorrectly and used 'principle' when describing that fella. Considering his non teaching antics, 'principle' is not a word I would associate with him.

Villain

judeboy101 wrote: »

It was a delightful play on the fact you spelt 'principal' incorrectly and used 'principle' when describing that fella. Considering his non teaching antics, 'principle' is not a word I would associate with him.

Ahh thats dyslexia for and phones for ya ::(

Bean Scoile

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm confused. We were only down one day (confirmed by ringing payroll) as Monday could not be docked due to all letters not being processed. Yet my opt out was reduced by 1/14th. So how could they process my opt out without a letter (or lack of letter) to say iwas still 'doing' s&s?

I presume the opt out for the strike day didn't need to be paid since you weren't being paid that day anyway? They couldn't take pay off you twice for one day.

Godge

Gebgbegb wrote: »

You tell me, Who do you think knows best about getting paid as a beginning teacher?

Parents?
Journalists?
ETB officials?
Pupils?
Dept. Inspectors?


Have I forgotten anyone?

You were responding to a statement that "teachers are underemployed and overpaid", and suggesting that only teachers could have a considered view on that issue.

I pointed out that there are plenty of others in the education system who could have a considered view on that issue. Sure, there are many ignorant views out there but there are also many who have an informed view, and while they might not agree fully with that statement, they also might not 100% disagree with it.

Otherwise you are saying that only teachers can decide how much teachers can be paid.

coillsaille

After the events of last week the ASTI instructed shop stewards to tell BOMs they should continue organising SnS contingency arrangements, so if the directive is resumed there won't be any more lockouts.

I was informed today that the DES have now instructed schools not to organise contingency arrangements, which I thought was quite interesting.

judeboy101

coillsaille wrote: »

After the events of last week the ASTI instructed shop stewards to tell BOMs they should continue organising SnS contingency arrangements, so if the directive is resumed there won't be any more lockouts.

I was informed today that the DES have now instructed schools not to organise contingency arrangements, which I thought was quite interesting.

Next paycheck will tell a story. If des deduct lockout day it will inflame things if they hold off they will wait til after talks. Reality is that we will be doin s&s or paying not to do it, until new LR 2.0 is negotiated in spring. We had our chance and we blew it.

Aufbau

coillsaille wrote: »

I was informed today that the DES have now instructed schools not to organise contingency arrangements, which I thought was quite interesting.

Has the DES the authority to instruct BOMs like that?

coillsaille

Aufbau wrote: »

Has the DES the authority to instruct BOMs like that?

Good question! Our BOM have decided not to take any heed and are going ahead with the recruitment of supervisors.
Pity they didn't take the same aporoach with the JMB "advice" about Nov 7th.

man_no_plan

Aufbau wrote: »

Has the DES the authority to instruct BOMs like that?

The DES signs the cheque.

seavill

Aufbau wrote: »

coillsaille wrote: »

I was informed today that the DES have now instructed schools not to organise contingency arrangements, which I thought was quite interesting.

Has the DES the authority to instruct BOMs like that?

No they don't. Unless they make it into a circular up to then it's only advice as far as I know.
Except for the principals that are trying to look after themselves to further their careers or supplement their retirement with JMB that don't want to rock any boats.
Then it may appear that they can tell what to do.

MrJones1973

I doubt very much the grand old duke of york that is the Asti will be marching its troops up the hill on anything for a year at least. Personally I will vote against any weak offer but after the cave in recently and the failure of SC to plan for what happened (de facto all out in SOME schools)I doubt you will get members in strike mode again. By plan I mean failure to get Legal advice and failure to realize how it looked with some members being paid and some not.
At the time I supported embargo on Management not aiding contingency plans but I have always wanted an all out bitter dispute to sort a few issues out.
But perhaps ban on Principals aiding contingency plans was a mistake IF you didnt have the balls for a few weeks strike.


However I have heard the other argument that the invite to talks was a cave in by Government.

Talks on a new pay deal will start in January. A better offer will be out to Asti members and whatever it is-members will vote Yes.

deiseindublin

Will be interesting to see what comes of the talks. We should know in the next 10 days.

deiseindublin

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

A better offer will be out to Asti members and whatever it is-members will vote Yes.

DES know this so I can't imagine the deal/offer will be great.

When is the GRA result out? I can really see it being rejected.

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

But perhaps ban on Principals aiding contingency plans was a mistake IF you didnt have the balls for a few weeks strike.

A long strike would have been bad for teachers' morale as well as that of pupils.

I'm not saying that teachers have to be friends with pupils' parents but making enemies of them doesn't help.

solerina

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I doubt very much the grand old duke of york that is the Asti will be marching its troops up the hill on anything for a year at least. Personally I will vote against any weak offer but after the cave in recently and the failure of SC to plan for what happened (de facto all out in SOME schools)I doubt you will get members in strike mode again. By plan I mean failure to get Legal advice and failure to realize how it looked with some members being paid and some not.
At the time I supported embargo on Management not aiding contingency plans but I have always wanted an all out bitter dispute to sort a few issues out.
But perhaps ban on Principals aiding contingency plans was a mistake IF you didnt have the balls for a few weeks strike.


However I have heard the other argument that the invite to talks was a cave in by Government.

Talks on a new pay deal will start in January. A better offer will be out to Asti members and whatever it is-members will vote Yes.

I wont vote yes....my conditions are currently more important to me than just financial benefit...I want CP hours gone, or at least flexible so that are not such a total waste of time. I just spent 3 hours of my Sunday correcting exams...none of which counts as a single min of CP, this is not acceptable when we sit in a room pushing paper about just to tick down yet another hour of CP.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

A long strike would have been bad for teachers' morale as well as that of pupils.

I'm not saying that teachers have to be friends with pupils' parents but making enemies of them doesn't help.

I fundamentally disagree with the above point. A popular striker is an oxymoron. Pissing off the public=pressure on Government=better deal.
Look at Luas/Bus/Guards-all ready to go out and piss off Joe public.


A lot of teachers I think just wanted to grandtand-ah sure look we did the few days for the poor old new recruits.

I might indeed vote for whatever they throw us-why bother when 3 days is the height of our efforts!
Schools have no middle Mgt-our terms and conditions ripped up. Three pay scales and the mighty ASTi does 3 days. We are a joke.
I wont be commenting further. It just makes me depressed.
S and S allowance derisory Id get better money cleaning toilets..