Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

judeboy101

At least "threaten" the state exams, pull out of all non teaching duties in school I.e using I t to do rolls (do them old school) no co op with sse or inspectors, phase withdrawal of substitution and full withdrawal of s&s in June.but above all threaten like crazy the exams in June.

Aquals

acequion wrote: »

However we are heading into a very good time of year if we need to turn up the heat with the LC orals just over a month away and then the written exams. I think we have to be prepared to use them as I agree that I can't see the Govt ignoring us then.

I'm convinced this is the way to go. Teachers have lost the appetite for strikes because they don't want to lose more pay this year. By targeting LC orals and state exams in June etc, we can turn up the heat on the Dept without affecting teachers core pay.

2011abc

Teachers by and large would never do that as they are too 'nice' .Alas this nicety doesn't seem to extend towards their LPT colleagues or even themselves and their families .

JakeSisko1980

It's true there are a lot here saying they were up for a long fight but their bluff was never really called. It might have been informative to have kept up a strike for at least a week and have a CEC meeting. At least CEC would be some reflection of the members but unfortunately SC ran too quickly into tcc so we will never know but I for one would love a ballot on a long strike.

feardeas

Full disclosure I left the union during the week. It no longer speaks for me. In the school I work in I was not alone and in fact it is spreading fast.

I did wonder about it during the week but tonight's publication confirmed for me that the decision was right for me. I note here that any and all voices that argue against the outcome are decried as worse almost than the black and tans. Someone suggested that doing nothing was a good policy, obviously reading from the book of Nero there.

A publicity drive re. Junior Cycle, or is it about methods of assessment. How do they intend to argue that parents should not be informed on how teachers assess students when we do it at each and every house exam. To me the School Profile of Achievement will be nothing more than a glorified version of that.

Political lobbying, good luck. There are hundreds of thousands on waiting lists. Ask any TD about what appears in their clinics as an issue....... waiting lists. Not the pay and conditions of teachers, they know where their bread is buttered and by Jaysus no TD will argue that spending should be diverted form health to that. The Government have the lines ready while it took SC two days to come to the earth shattering conclusion that they will do the sum total of very little.

Equating it to the nurses is nonsense. Nurses begin with a work to rule by not doing the jobs of two or three colleagues who have not been replaced. The strikes will come after, it has at least being thought out. Now imagine if like nurses we were asked to teach two classes instead of one at the one time. Good God, there's a reluctance to do 33 hours. [Debates on using them productively are pointless here at this stage, the narrative that they are big bold boys]

Also they can not get the nurses. The dept and every principal knows that for most teaching positions once it is advertised the CVs come flying in and will continue to do so as long as the PMEs are churning out graduates. There is no shortage of supply in general with the exception of some subjects before some people start spluttering and howling.

It appears to me as somebody who is impacted by this without being involved anymore that the SC, all of whom I have no doubt are committed and convinced of the virtue of their cause, having requested a mandate and received it are unsure of what to do next.

By the end of February they will know how many, like me, have left. Based on the subscription we pay 300 leaving means a loss of €100,000.

It gives me no satisfaction to say that this is a situation of peril for the union and I firmly believe that it may be a watershed in the field of Industrial representation in the teaching profession.

SligoBrewer

feardeas wrote: »

Full disclosure I left the union during the week. It no longer speaks for me. In the school I work in I was not alone and in fact it is spreading fast.

Good for you that you are not alone in your staff room. Gold star for you. They speak for me, my lower paid colleagues and the majority of members of the union.

feardeas wrote: »

I'm permanent, no danger of bring over quota, there long enough not to be worried about it even if there was a dip in numbers. Not on the breadline. You know what there's worse than me and life is short.

Justice is justice. Equality is equality. You may be comfortable in your job and I may be comfortable in mine, but I am fighting for those who aren't as lucky as me. Those in Dublin. Those on part time contracts. Those teaching subjects that aren't in demand.

Life is short and teaching careers are shorter. Stand up for other teachers, especially those more vulnerable than you.

I actually cannot believe you. You left a workers union because they dared to stand up for workers and worker's rights. I hate calling people out but thanks for leaving a union because you think that I'm worth less than you and your comfortable permanent position. It's one thing voting yes. It's another thing being so against equality that you post about it online. It's a lightyear away from leaving a union because you lost out on a vote about fairness.

As for me? I'm here, I'm vulnerable and I gave up a CID I'd really like to have to campaign for a no because me and virtually every teacher under the age of 30 being second class isn't good enough. Don't you ****ing realise what this ****ing means?

feardeas

No body is against equality. I'm certainly not.

You appear to have gone through previous posts. If you had done that diligently you would see that I always believed in the end goal of an equal pay scale. I just thought the strategy was somewhat flawed.

I believe and always have that that it would have been wise to take the offer, use the pay commission to negotiate for the dip allowance. Then use the talks for the new agreement to, in concert with the other unions, argue for the row back of the 10% cut over a period. That would probably involve no pay rise for pre 2011 entrants across the entire public service given that there isn't a money making machine in Merrion Street.

My point about being permanent was that I was not complaining about the result because I was waiting for a CID which incidentally I waited more than two years for.

As for part time contracts, they're a disgrace but not part of the dispute. The casualisation of the profession is desperate but the process that is in play in the ETB and C and C sectors could help it.

The issue of Dublin is massive and similar to London and all other major cities. I don't know how it can be addressed. Cost of housing in the capital would be a start, it's long term though. Maybe the new rent arrangements will help. Supply of more housing might bring prices down and the central bank rules had stopped the excessive increases that were happening a couple of years ago. The other avenue could be a Dublin allowance but that may involve decreases outside of it. Would be an admin nightmare too I'd say.

I do not degrade lpt colleagues, I help them in any way I can like I was helped. I just see no avenue through which this will be solved in the way that the ASTI advocate.

Finally don't forget that we all took cuts. I bought a house at an inflated price in an act of madness. Within 8 months the salary had been cut by €160 a cheque. Within 12 months of that another €120 at least was gone. That was income levies, pension levy, public service pay cut, usc and tax increases. I never sat down to work it all out just know that nine years later I'm nearly at where I was in 08 through increments, tak and usc cuts and limited restoration.

I have lots of empathy for LPT but just don't think the strategy will work. If I'm proven wrong so be it. Those that were in the majority should now focus on the considerable task ahead.

JakeSisko1980

Everybody is entitled to leave a union But i just don't see what you get by leaving? The margin of the vote was narrow. There will be another vote by end of year
You are in a secondary school so you won't get any pay increases and I doubt you will cross a picket. You get treated the same by the department. Check it out

Fellow teachers might be made redundant. Teachers who probably voted yes. They might need you. Your support

joebloggs32

JakeSisko1980 wrote: »

Everybody is entitled to leave a union But i just don't see what you get by leaving? The margin of the vote was narrow. There will be another vote by end of year
You are in a secondary school so you won't get any pay increases and I doubt you will cross a picket. You get treated the same by the department. Check it out

Fellow teachers might be made redundant. Teachers who probably voted yes. They might need you. Your support

He might be treated the same now by the government for the rest of the school year, but don't be surprised if the government bring out a new form like last September asking people to sign if they are available to do new jct, croke park hours and everything else.

On the issue of LPT's it is a classic case of one bird in the hand v two in the bush. Can the Asti deliver the two in the bush.

feardeas

joebloggs32 wrote:

On the issue of LPT's it is a classic case of one bird in the hand v two in the bush. Can the Asti deliver the two in the bush.

That's the question, we just have different ideas as to the answer.

JakeSisko1980

I note you are an English teacher feadras. You must see the dumbing down going on in the junior Next step the leaving. Kids need to read more. It's that simple. Putting films on the course or cutting it in half or group work or drafting doesn't negate that fact. Every school needs a good library and librarian. End of story

My point is I voted yes for similar reasons to you but bigger battles loom.

km79

Simple question for everyone
Do he feel more or less confident after last night's SC statement that there is a definite effective strategy in place ?

LESS

feardeas

JakeSisko1980 wrote:

I note you are an English teacher feadras. You must see the dumbing down going on in the junior Next step the leaving. Kids need to read more. It's that simple. Putting films on the course or cutting it in half or group work or drafting doesn't negate that fact. Every school needs a good library and librarian. End of story

Agreed with library or access to a local one. I think content is increased :two novels, perhaps two plays. Can do a documentary instead of film.

I don't see it dumbed down but I do see issues with the exam that will take a long time to get our heads around. A much more succinct writing style will be needed which goes against all we know.

JakeSisko1980

feardeas wrote: »

Agreed with library or access to a local one. I think content is increased :two novels, perhaps two plays. Can do a documentary instead of film.

I don't see it dumbed down but I do see issues with the exam that will take a long time to get our heads around. A much more succinct writing style will be needed which goes against all we know.

A five hour paper is now two hours.They don't write a full essay on anything. It's dumbed down to my mind. The gap between JC and LC was wide now it's a chasm. None of these developments will make kids more literate unless they cut out the guff and have kids read a good bit more. This new JC just has kids writing poorly in slightly different formats.

SligoBrewer

joebloggs32 wrote: »

.

On the issue of LPT's it is a classic case of one bird in the hand v two in the bush. Can the Asti deliver the two in the bush.

Except it's 8.

acequion

feardeas I can see where you're coming from on a number of issues and I do sympathise. I also think it's a pity that you left the union but that is your choice.

However one thing I would totally disagree with would be our ability to negotiate anything meaningful within the LRA, especially at the moment with the LC and LPT disputes hanging in the balance. Granted,so far we haven't achieved much outside but at least our hands are not tied. People seem to think that within LRA unions can form alliances and agitate for improvements but nothing could be further from the truth. The evidence: Just look at the last two agreements,CPA and HRA where all gains were on the Govt side and the odd crumb thrown to unions. And you can't negotiate with a gun to your head and your hands tied behind your back which is the modus operandi within these so called "agreements". Also the Govt's divide and conquer strategy ensures there will be no alliances between the difficult ones in the class. Did you see any alliance emerging during CPA and HRA, any in LRA so far?

As for negotiating with the pay commission, whatever that will entail,let TUI carry the flag for teachers, for once!

judeboy101

I think more was discussed and agreed on at SC than was put out in public. No point playing all their cards at once. We have time and the most sensitive time of the year on our side. Let the rest of the public service take a rogering at the negotiations
And we can sign up at anytime. Meanwhile we get to finish school on time and skip out the door with our students while tui schools bean count

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

I think more was discussed and agreed on at SC than was put out in public. No point playing all their cards at once. We have time and the most sensitive time of the year on our side. Let the rest of the public service take a rogering at the negotiations
And we can sign up at anytime. Meanwhile we get to finish school on time and skip out the door with our students while tui schools bean count

That is exactly what we must remember. If nothing else, I'm delighted to have a few more weeks / months of glorious freedom to enjoy my job and a bit more time for me and mine. No money could buy that!

JakeSisko1980

acequion wrote: »

That is exactly what we must remember. If nothing else, I'm delighted to have a few more weeks / months of glorious freedom to enjoy my job and a bit more time for me and mine. No money could buy that!

Even 3k ?

judeboy101

JakeSisko1980 wrote: »

Even 3k ?[/QUOTE

I'd rather have time than money. Money comes and goes but you only get so much time in this life and I'd rather spend it with family/friends or playing footie rather than sitting in a circle passing a stuffed toy around and talking about my feelings.

deiseindublin

Do you not pay any deductions? €3k could be as low as €100 a month with current deductions. Not sure CP hours worth that.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

Do you not pay any deductions? €3k could be as low as €100 a month with current deductions. Not sure CP hours worth that.

That's one example
My situation is in finally at the end of a 5 year pause in increments in June ( I was at the start of a 3 year pause before HRA deferals )
Next increment is worth 3000 or so
1000 in April
S and s last September and next September 1600
That's almost 6000 euro so 3000 gross
My son is starting college soon

I've consistently voted no as it's about more than money BUT I am now reaching the point where i need to see a STRATEGY
I don't see one . The govt don't see one
I just see the same deal being accepted next September which will just have cost us time and money
That statement last night has me completely and utterly disillusion
I see Fightback saying they didn't want to say too much and show their hand .
The EXACT same thing was said by them in November

There is no strategy. We have been lead to the precipice and there is no plan

That's my last list here again for a while cos I'm depressed and worn out by it all

Too many battles. We were never going to win them all but I fear now we will win none

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

That's one example
My situation is in finally at the end of a 5 year pause in increments in June ( I was at the start of a 3 year pause before HRA deferals )
Next increment is worth 3000 or so
1000 in April
S and s last September and next September 1600
That's almost 6000 euro so 3000 gross
My son is starting college soon

I've consistently voted no as it's about more than money BUT I am now reaching the point where i need to see a STRATEGY
I don't see one . The govt don't see one
I just see the same deal being accepted next September which will just have cost us time and money
That statement last night has me completely and utterly disillusion
I see Fightback saying they didn't want to say too much and show their hand .
The EXACT same thing was said by them in November

There is no strategy. We have been lead to the precipice and there is no plan

That's my last list here again for a while cos I'm depressed and worn out by it all

Too many battles. We were never going to win them all but I fear now we will win none

When you are on your deathbed and someone offers you 3k or 33hrs more with your family, which soul you choose. I'd choose life ��

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

When you are on your deathbed and someone offers you 3k or 33hrs more with your family, which soul you choose. I'd choose life ��

His kid is going to college soon though!

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

When you are on your deathbed and someone offers you 3k or 33hrs more with your family, which soul you choose. I'd choose life ��

Read all of what I said again please
My problem is after last nights "statement " I believe that there is NO strategy so it's all been for nothing
Last post

joebloggs32

km79 wrote: »

That's one example
My situation is in finally at the end of a 5 year pause in increments in June ( I was at the start of a 3 year pause before HRA deferals )
Next increment is worth 3000 or so
1000 in April
S and s last September and next September 1600
That's almost 6000 euro so 3000 gross
My son is starting college soon

I've consistently voted no as it's about more than money BUT I am now reaching the point where i need to see a STRATEGY
I don't see one . The govt don't see one
I just see the same deal being accepted next September which will just have cost us time and money
That statement last night has me completely and utterly disillusion
I see Fightback saying they didn't want to say too much and show their hand .
The EXACT same thing was said by them in November

There is no strategy. We have been lead to the precipice and there is no plan

That's my last list here again for a while cos I'm depressed and worn out by it all

Too many battles. We were never going to win them all but I fear now we will win none

If you had an A post and were near top of the scale you would probably also be in Fempi territory, so if your gross is up over 65k you are getting another cut there compared to TUI, who will see Fempi cuts reversed in two stages, incremental pay rise, lra pay rise and S&S.
First fempi relief in April and next in January 2018.
Difference between an Asti and TUI worker at this level will be over €7k by next January if nothing changes. Difference for lpt's probably around €6k p.a. by next January.
It is a serious amount of cash.

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

His kid is going to college soon though!

When I choose to go to college I has to pay for it myself as my parents couldn't afford to .in the immortal words of homer Simpson, "Lisa needs new braces"

MrJones1973

Km May I ask -what are your subjects? Would you consider Grinds or even correcting as a means to tide you over? Everybody's financial means differs and ultimately its family first. I wonder if Government collapses would we get a better deal with FF/SF?

My view in favor of a protracted strike is we avoid this drip drip dispute and possibly get some real results. If it fails we would at least rule it out as an option

happywithlife

As a teacher who moves regularly between sectors I'm wondering how all the pay/ increments etc are going to work out long term?
Right now I'm ASTI in dual union school so not getting any benefits. All fine with me. I voted no.
I'm wondering what happens next year if I end up in a solely tui school? Would I have to do CP? Presumably not. If I submit a statement of service as I've learned to always do when crossing back and over i assume any increment due is not paid? What happens a tui member who for arguments sake has gotten an incremental increase but finds themselves in a voluntary school - presumably the increments isn't taken back off them as how would payroll know? Maybe I'm reading too much into it but find a lot of staff cross over between sectors these days

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Km May I ask -what are your subjects? Would you consider Grinds or even correcting as a means to tide you over? Everybody's financial means differs and ultimately its family first. I wonder if Government collapses would we get a better deal with FF/SF?

It's not about the money I was merely making a point
It's about the complete and utter lack of strategy from head office
We were told in November here and by others " don't worry they just don't want to show their hand "
Fightback today have said exactly the same thing again
It's has left me completely and utterly disillusioned
And that's my last post for sure until things change