Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

acequion

amacca wrote: »

OH says she thought last ballot included provision for strike in event of any member being made redundant

No. The last ballot was on the "Outcome of Talks" proposals only. However CEC passed a motion to ballot members for strike if there was a move to make any ASTI member redundant, if the above ballot was rejected.

Which it was,therefore a ballot can be held immediately in such an eventuality. The union are simply following the correct protocols here.

The only strike action which has already been provided for is the one from last Autumn's ballot about the restoration of the common scale. That mandate is still in place.

All these ballots,protocols,mandates are indeed confusing, I know, but these things have to be done legally or else we're all up the creek.

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

I have to say that as I was driving into work this morning I greeted the latest threat (on Morning Ireland) from the overpaid fonctionnaires of the Department of Education with utter contempt. All the old divide and conquer strategies out in force. It just strengthened my resolve to say 'No' to everything they propose. I have no goodwill for their tactics, not to mention their utterly risible concept of "reform".


Just a reminder of the personal financial circumstances of some of these Department of Education "reformers", from the dark economic days of 2011:

1. Senior civil servant to get €114,000 pension at 53 years of age: 'Brigid McManus will retire in mid-February when her seven-year term expires. In accordance with the terms under which secretaries general were appointed, she will receive a full pension of €114,839 per year. She will also receive an after-tax lump-sum payment of €204,000.'

2. Irish civil servant to get paid more than most world leaders: 'The new Secretary General of the Department of Education will get a whopper €190,000 pay cheque every year.

The salary of the new department head, Seán Ó Foghlú, will far outweigh those of the leaders of some of the world's superpowers. Seán will be rewarded for his skill set with €17,000 more than the British Prime Minister David Cameron...'

And that's before the pension is included. Lord knows what our great "reforming" Department of Education is paying him, and many others, in 2017.

And it is to satisfy the "reforming" demands of these people that each of us is doing unpaid S&S and keeping schools open. Not content in depriving us of increments, their latest response is to threaten and bully us. Nah, it's not going to work at all, bright ones, and these particular heels get dug in deeper and deeper. It will only be a matter of time before all impartial observers will see the hypocrisy, arrogance and double standards at work from these great "reformers" in the Department of Education. Long past time to reform these arrant parasites and stop scapegoating teachers - in today's case, teachers who are among the most marginal in our increasingly marginalised profession.
When it comes to reforming conditions of employment, this really and truly is a "Do as we say, not as we do" government.

Finally, I'm still waiting for a single journalist in that abysmally compromised profession to grill the Minister for Education and his overpaid minions about how this state benefits from forcing Irish teachers to do Croke Park Hours. Or how any student benefits from any of the posteria-covering, box-ticking "reforms" they want to impose on us (I was speaking with somebody who returned from teaching in England and she was saying if she wanted to organise a school trip she needed to get health and safety reports on all aspects of the trip before it could be authorised. Jesus. This is "reform" and it's coming your way if you let it, teachers of Ireland.)

A brilliant post and thank you for all that information. It really is staggering to see how much these people are paid, while many a humble teacher is on the breadline.

What bugs me is how so many ASTI members vent their ire at the union,rather than at the real culprits,the politicians and the upper echelons of the Civil Service. Reading the ASTI facebook page last night you'd be forgiven for thinking that the big,fat bad guy is ASTI,that we're all crazy for not joining the good guy, TUI, while the real,smiling villains up in Kildare Street don't even get a mention. What kind of idiots are we,Irish that we always turn on each other and take the pressure of the real culprit! How they must enjoy the fits of in fighting as teachers beat up themselves and each other in eagerness to sign up to the crazy demands.

We really need to stand firm this time.

Chancer3001

Very much agreed.

People bad mouthing the union, oh what did they ever do for us...

Do they not realise we are the only union fighting the good fight?

We're still battling to avoid massive increase in workload.

We should be congratulating the union and it's members for continually rejecting nonsense

coillsaille

acequion wrote: »

CEC passed a motion to ballot members for strike if there was a move to make any ASTI member redundant, if the above ballot was rejected.

Which it was,therefore a ballot can be held immediately in such an eventuality. The union are simply following the correct protocols here

I agree wholeheartedly with all you've said acequion. But just wondering in regard to the bit above, does that mean we can hold the ballot now rather than waiting for the DES to actually make someone redundant first?

SligoBrewer

From the CSO earnings report published yesterday.
How are TUI and INTO still pretending everything is ok in teaching.

ethical

Thank you Sligo Brewer,wonderful to read that both myself and my other halfs professions are the only two in the minus!!!!

ethical

Re gaiscioch' great post ,should all Boardies not copy it and flood the many areas of social media with the information contained therein.It might just put a bit of balance to that puppet Richard and his gang of clowns!

acequion

ethical wrote: »

Re gaiscioch' great post ,should all Boardies not copy it and flood the many areas of social media with the information contained therein.It might just put a bit of balance to that puppet Richard and his gang of clowns!

Unfortunately,you'll only ever see information like gaiscioch's and Sligo Brewer's buried away on social media forums like this one. All you'll find in mainstream media is spin. Spin which is swallowed by many and that's the sad part.

So much in this sad little country of ours is a joke! :mad:

acequion

coillsaille wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly with all you've said acequion. But just wondering in regard to the bit above, does that mean we can hold the ballot now rather than waiting for the DES to actually make someone redundant first?

Yeah I see what you're saying Coillsaille and I agree. We should be totally ready. I think the motion went something like "if the Government made a move towards redundancies." Again being nice teachers and all that jazz I suppose they [the union] don't want us to be unnecessarily provocative by balloting before the Government actually attack. Remember as well that a huge amount of teachers had become very skittish about strikes so that S word had to be handled with care.

But if, god forbid, the threat of a redundancy becomes real because a certain school or schools are over quota,surely that threat will be flagged well in advance, allowing time for the ballot! If I were in such a school I would be camped outside Winetavern Street demanding an answer on that one.

evolving_doors

I'm not 100% sure of the redeployment process, but I'd imagine that a teacher would be selected by the school for redeployment and then the Dept. Would refuse entry on the grounds of the school being ASTI. Would that be correct?

coillsaille

acequion wrote: »

Yeah I see what you're saying Coillsaille and I agree. We should be totally ready. I think the motion went something like "if the Government made a move towards redundancies." Again being nice teachers and all that jazz I suppose they [the union] don't want us to be unnecessarily provocative by balloting before the Government actually attack. Remember as well that a huge amount of teachers had become very skittish about strikes so that S word had to be handled with care.

But if, god forbid, the threat of a redundancy becomes real because a certain school or schools are over quota,surely that threat will be flagged well in advance, allowing time for the ballot! If I were in such a school I would be camped outside Winetavern Street demanding an answer on that one.

Yeah I can see your point alright acequion about the optics of us balloting before the DES attack and the point about some members fearing more strikes.
But on the other hand a preemptive ballot might make the DES think twice before denying our members access to redeployment. It could also give reassurance to members who are spooked by the threat of redundancies, especially those in over quota schools. It might also satisfy those members who feel like we're always on the back foot and that the leadership don't act decisively enough.
I would think myself the below quote from the minister in the Irish Times this week is grounds enough for us to ballot now:

“Under the Lansdowne Road agreement, the Government committed that compulsory redundancy would not apply to public servants,” a spokesman for Mr Bruton said.
“This protection is not available to staff who are outside the terms of that agreement. The department of education confirmed this position to ASTI prior to its recent ballot.”

Chancer3001

People are getting sick enough of ballots without balloting for something we might not even need.

Liberal_irony

If the government wants to save money what about the multiple ex government ministers on two or three pensions draining 100K+ each year from the budget. They've systematically destroyed front line services but the middle and upper management haven't been touched. Wouldn't hurt to direct public attention to the wasters at the top.

MrJones1973

Hold your Horses folks. Lets wait for Departments move. I m sure ASTI headquarters well aware of timescale/legalities etc. A ballot can be organised quickly enough and the LC nuclear option is there if it runs to Summer.

An all out is only option if one teacher made redundant otherwise Department will go ahead-ASTi scramble into Department-third ballot-LR passed. Two scenarios

evolving_doors

Chancer3001 wrote: »

People are getting sick enough of ballots without balloting for something we might not even need.

Consider the option of leaving it too late to ballot! Meanwhile a few teachers may have lost their jobs whilst the union only starts to organise itself to ballot for strike.

What if a school waits until the last day of school in june to let a teacher go?
This should be sorted ASAP as a matter of course.

coillsaille

Chancer3001 wrote: »

People are getting sick enough of ballots without balloting for something we might not even need.

People may well be sick of ballots. But we are talking about an unprecedented attack on our members in the form of compulsory redundancies. People need to get over their 'sickness' of ballots if we are to fight off this assault. We're a trade union in a long running dispute with an employer who keeps intensifying the level of hostility, numerous ballots are inevitable in such a situation.
Out of curiosity is your school over quota? Are you or any of your colleagues in the firing line (literally)? My school isn’t but I think we need to take preemptive action to protect and reassure those who are.

Education matters

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Consider the option of leaving it too late to ballot! Meanwhile a few teachers may have lost their jobs whilst the union only starts to organise itself to ballot for strike.

What if a school waits until the last day of school in june to let a teacher go?
This should be sorted ASAP as a matter of course.

The Department appear to be intent on wrapping this up. Circular 10/2017 was released yesterday. This refers to the redeployment for ASTI schools. Schools had to let the Department know by 17th January if they were over quota and the deadline for submission of who exactly is to be redeployed is the 24th March so the entire process can be completed by 31st of May. I'd be organising my ballot, swiftly.

Jamfa

Education matters wrote: »

The Department appear to be intent on wrapping this up. Circular 10/2017 was released yesterday. This refers to the redeployment for ASTI schools. Schools had to let the Department know by 17th January if they were over quota and the deadline for submission of who exactly is to be redeployed is the 24th March so the entire process can be completed by 31st of May. I'd be organising my ballot, swiftly.

Exactly as it's a reality & not a threat: http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0010_2017.pdf?utm_content=buffer3770e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

MrJones1973

But the circular says Redeployed not Redundant?!

Jamfa

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

But the circular says Redeployed not Redundant?!

The Circular refers to ASTI members in this line: "All other teachers, where they are nominated as surplus, may potentially be liable for compulsory redundancy."

MrJones1973

Holy fxxx. ASTI would want to be balloting soon and all out.

km79

No it will be grand lads
Sure we will just sit back and see what happens
Election
Blah blah blah

I still see no plan whatsoever
Now believe there is none

Education matters

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Holy fxxx. ASTI would want to be balloting soon and all out.

My point exactly Mr White. If we can figure this out from a Circular so can ASTI officials!!!

MrJones1973

I remember Pat King saying its a legal minefield. They could go ahead with it and the ASTI could drag them through courts but it could take years to sort out. It really would hinge on whether a court would put a stay on redundancies pending a full case. The case would hinge on the fact that ONE union is being singled out.

I hope head office has something out to teachers next week. For the love of Jesus-tell me HQ you saw this possibility coming and have a plan.

evolving_doors

I would assume that it would be an 'ASTI school' that would be the deciding factor (to preclude from the redeployment panel ...ergo made redundant) and not being an 'ASTI teacher'.
Plus let us not forget the emergency is NOT over and fempi is the top trump..

Could you have a teacher not in any union being singled out for redundancy... merely for the fact that they are in an ASTI school?
Would the union be obliged to fight this teachers case.... I don't think so!

As Mr. White said it's unprecedented waters... so maybe the government would be willing to have a punt and test it out in the courts:
A: That could take a good few months/years
B: The courts would cost the government nothing... (the citizen foots that Bill! ).

Yet again we look to the bus drivers... any mention of redundancies and it's an 'all out' across ALL the transport unions. This has been stated numerous times on the radio... it's taken as a fact.

Have the TUI or INTO been forthcoming?

Education matters

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I would assume that it would be an 'ASTI school' that would be the deciding factor (to preclude from the redeployment panel ...ergo made redundant) and not being an 'ASTI teacher'.
Plus let us not forget the emergency is NOT over and fempi is the top trump..

Could you have a teacher not in any union being singled out for redundancy... merely for the fact that they are in an ASTI school?
Would the union be obliged to fight this teachers case.... I don't think so!

As Mr. White said it's unprecedented waters... so maybe the government would be willing to have a punt and test it out in the courts:
A: That could take a good few months/years
B: The courts would cost the government nothing... (the citizen foots that Bill! ).

Yet again we look to the bus drivers... any mention of redundancies and it's an 'all out' across ALL the transport unions. This has been stated numerous times on the radio... it's taken as a fact.

Have the TUI or INTO been forthcoming?

The Circular refers specifically to voluntary secondary schools there are separate circulars for ETB and C and C schools.

MrJones1973

It's either all-out or cave in.

feardeas

I find it dumbfounding that people can be surprised. The fact that ASTI members would no longer be protected from redundancy was in the literature sent out. Call it what anyone likes it was there and hasn't been removed.

The dept seem now to be beginning a process that takes some time. Hardly a surprise. Although I really can't imagine that either the union or government want it to happen. Nobody in their right mind would. Most unions and employers move heaven and earth to void them by using things like altered work practices. (Hint.... CP)

As for people being angry about perceived inaction. Again it was in black and white from the CEC prior to the ballot.

The committees have a mandate and I imagine that mandate would be higher now given that some, perhaps many, great untouchables aka the yes voters have left. Including myself.

If a non union teacher was put forward for redundancy I would imagine that he or she might have a case to make for being treated as an individual as opposed to being outside a collective agreement by virtue of the fact that they work in a particular type of school. I think the change in policy from the Dept about individual signing up to things could be close enough.

Time will tell in all these things. The union is democratic, the decision was made in full possession of the facts by members so really it's probably a matter of strategy and so forth.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

I find it dumbfounding that people can be surprised. The fact that ASTI members would no longer be protected from redundancy was in the literature sent out. Call it what anyone likes it was there and hasn't been removed.

The dept seem now to be beginning a process that takes some time. Hardly a surprise. Although I really can't imagine that either the union or government want it to happen. Nobody in their right mind would. Most unions and employers move heaven and earth to void them by using things like altered work practices. (Hint.... CP)

As for people being angry about perceived inaction. Again it was in black and white from the CEC prior to the ballot.

The committees have a mandate and I imagine that mandate would be higher now given that some, perhaps many, great untouchables aka the yes voters have left. Including myself.

If a non union teacher was put forward for redundancy I would imagine that he or she might have a case to make for being treated as an individual as opposed to being outside a collective agreement by virtue of the fact that they work in a particular type of school. I think the change in policy from the Dept about individual signing up to things could be close enough.

Time will tell in all these things. The union is democratic, the decision was made in full possession of the facts by members so really it's probably a matter of strategy and so forth.

A number of assumptions above that have no evidence. You have left the Union and I have rejoined but you have no idea how many have left or joined in total. Recently Asti had an increase in numbers in joint union schools which was surprising. Members coming and going will have no real impact on next ballot in my view but it's only a view
As for ending blanket treatment of all teachers in voluntary schools(Asti/non Union) that's a big step and has repercussions across all public sector not just teaching but given that the tax payer is footing legal eagles they might find a way around that.
You are right that teachers should not be surprised at redundancy moves. I'm not. But this time let's hope the Asti has a plan.
Are you willing to pass a picket if rules are changed and you get LR despite being in a voluntary school?
But I would not be confident of victory if balloted again. Yes to action vote declined by 28% last time. Unless Asti has a clear plan it's a big assumption that a ballot would pass again.

acequion

feardeas wrote: »

I find it dumbfounding that people can be surprised. The fact that ASTI members would no longer be protected from redundancy was in the literature sent out. Call it what anyone likes it was there and hasn't been removed.

The dept seem now to be beginning a process that takes some time. Hardly a surprise. Although I really can't imagine that either the union or government want it to happen. Nobody in their right mind would. Most unions and employers move heaven and earth to void them by using things like altered work practices. (Hint.... CP)

As for people being angry about perceived inaction. Again it was in black and white from the CEC prior to the ballot.

The committees have a mandate and I imagine that mandate would be higher now given that some, perhaps many, great untouchables aka the yes voters have left. Including myself.

If a non union teacher was put forward for redundancy I would imagine that he or she might have a case to make for being treated as an individual as opposed to being outside a collective agreement by virtue of the fact that they work in a particular type of school. I think the change in policy from the Dept about individual signing up to things could be close enough.

Time will tell in all these things. The union is democratic, the decision was made in full possession of the facts by members so really it's probably a matter of strategy and so forth.

I'd say it's more outrage than surprise feardeas. Yes it was certainly well flagged in advance but does that make it acceptable? There is a perfectly efficient functioning redeployment system already in place and making people unemployed ultimately costs the State a lot more.So if they really go ahead and do that they effectively sack people for exercising their right to vote as they choose in a democratic ballot. Which is utterly appalling in its vindictiveness and becomes an issue for the entire PS and not just teachers.

To say that they said they'd do it so don't be surprised is like saying to the parents of a kidnapped child that they did say they'd kill the kid if you didn't pay up so why are you surprised? An exaggerated example perhaps, but not that far off the mark. People really need to wake up to the unprecedented bullying that this Govt are party to.