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Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***
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implausible wrote: »
I don't know how the ASTI didn't predict this and have a response ready to go. English teachers in the ASTI have been hung out to dry, having to teach a brand new syllabus with only had one inservice (after which the assessment was drastically changed), no 14 hours in-school planning time this year and no timetable reduction of 40 minutes from September.
No we must certainly have not been hung out to dry. We considered and examined this new course just as you TUI people did, decided that a] it's not fit for purpose and b]hugely adds to teacher workload and therefore twice voted it down. I'm referring to the ballot specifically on JCT plus our recent one, which also incorporated JCT. The inservices,according to many of your TUI collegues,is a load of rubbish and there's even a thread where most posts are saying as much on this forum. You guys are talking a different language to the rest of us eg"descriptors," "CBA1", "CBA2". Sorry but it's all a load of waffle with bells on,the bells being all this fancy new jargon. I teach English and I teach second years and my focus is making sure they won't be disadvantaged by all of this and will be in some way ready for the LC course when the time comes. A tall order because of all this rubbish,but I'll certainly be doing my best to maintain their standards.So does this upcoming assessment only cover studied texts? ASTI have really dropped the ball on this one, complete silence allowing the SEC to rumble on & u can be sure JMB will be issuing a directive before the end of the week! And what are ASTI doing....'considering' it Thurs & Fri! Some very condescending posts from them on their Facebook page....about the structure of the Union. The JCT is in lads, being assessed & we've had no inservice on it!
No the JCT is not in Icsics! The majority of Irish teachers are not complying with it, so something can't be "in" when it's not being practised. Rather than constantly griping about your union, the only one that's had the courage to stand in opposition to the deterioration of standards,why don't you put your shoulder to the wheel and support the campaign!0 -
No we must certainly have not been hung out to dry. We considered and examined this new course just as you TUI people did, decided that a] it's not fit for purpose and b]hugely adds to teacher workload and therefore twice voted it down. I'm referring to the ballot specifically on JCT plus our recent one, which also incorporated JCT. The inservices,according to many of your TUI collegues,is a load of rubbish and there's even a thread where most posts are saying as much on this forum. You guys are talking a different language to the rest of us eg"descriptors," "CBA1", "CBA2". Sorry but it's all a load of waffle with bells on,the bells being all this fancy new jargon. I teach English and I teach second years and my focus is making sure they won't be disadvantaged by all of this and will be in some way ready for the LC course when the time comes. A tall order because of all this rubbish,but I'll certainly be doing my best to maintain their standards.
Well, maybe you don't feel it, but plenty of English teachers do. I know I felt hung out to dry when expected to bring in a new syllabus after one day's horrendously inadequate training and I only had to do it for one year, ASTI teachers have been doing it for three. Since then, it has been changed, we've had much more effective inservice and a good amount of time to plan in school. The new syllabus has its merits and other than the extra planning to be expected when introducing a new course, the workload has been quite manageable.
The thread you refer to is discussing wholeschool Junior Cycle training and I'd be p*ssed off too if it wasn't relevant as the syllabus for my subject hadn't been written yet. This could have been done a lot better.
I apologise for the fancy jargon: CBA1 is Classroom Based Assessment 1 (Oral Presentation), CBA2 is the Collection of Texts and the descriptors are what are being used instead of grades. I use these terms as they're the correct ones for the syllabus I've been teaching.0 -
No the JCT is not in Icsics! The majority of Irish teachers are not complying with it, so something can't be "in" when it's not being practised.
There are new syllabi in English, Science and Business and they are being taught in every school in the country as per our contracts. The new JC is in.0 -
implausible wrote: »There are new syllabi in English, Science and Business and they are being taught in every school in the country as per our contracts. The new JC is in.
No it is not in. Yes there is a new curriculum or specification, call it what you will and subject courses are changing and yes all teachers are teaching these new courses so that is "in" and I won't split hairs with you about that.
But what isn't "in" is the whole rationale behind this change,namely in school assessment, because it is being boycotted by a majority of teachers.
I am fully aware what all those terms stand for. As I said in my last post I too considered and examined the whole thing and rejected it, so therein lies the difference between us.
I'm not trying to start an argument with you as we are clearly on opposite sides of the fence here. However, as others have pointed out,it is the divisiveness among teachers on this and other issues,cemented by different unions,divergent in their viewpoints which has created the stalemate we find ourselves in. To quote the old adage, "United we stand,divided we fall."
And that is one of the chief reasons why the nurses,guards and transport workers have all succeeded where we have failed.0 -
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Any word from SC...AT get the go ahead?0
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Benicetomonty wrote: »Think SC deciding 2m. Unlikely to be allowed from what Ive heard.
Thanks Benicetomonty....fingers crossed!0 -
Benicetomonty wrote: »Think SC deciding 2m. Unlikely to be allowed from what Ive heard.
I've heard opposite, and also heard they have no plans to disrupt exams.0 -
Statement on Asti website 'welcoming' the AT0
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Benicetomonty wrote: »Think SC deciding 2m. Unlikely to be allowed from what Ive heard.
http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/new-sec-arrangements-uphold-asti-principle-on-assessment/
What's the plan ?0 -
Shows what I know!0 -
The plan is to hang the English teachers out to dry. I'll be attending any wellbeing inservice, because we'll end up doing it anyway.0 -
Well that's it over then, were are accepting the principle of CBA by facilitating the AT. Absolutely disgraceful from leadership. They have well and truly being bought and paid for.0
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I have marked a lot of portfolio work this year because I did not want to be caught out if the dispute ended. English teachers were left in a very tough place. So am I to tell kids they can't use them ? My marked pieces ? I'm probably not going to do that as the kids redrafted a few of them. I really don't care how that's interpreted as I always felt this task wasn't against the over all spirit of the Asti policy. None of their work leaves the school.
My main beef is the bull**** that surrounds these curriculum. You are still mainly teaching what has been taught under old jc English except now it's covered in bull**** learning outcomes . Yeah ,the oral test is a good idea and an innovation but outside of that it's still letters ,drama,novels etc
What I really resent is the introduction of wellness course. Firstly, it assumes teachers are well and happy. Secondly ,it's social engineering because society or their parents have failed and the department thinks we can sort it out, even though they don't trust us and make us write report after report? Lastly, it's dumbing down. A five hour honours JC exam becomes two ? Yeah it needed pruning but not an axe.0 -
This position of teaching the specification and now facilitating the external assessment of it while still being barred from attending any in-service around it is baffling.
I think it will become more untenable as other subjects come on stream.
In essence teachers will be doing a lot of the written CBA with the exception of the SLAR. Imo they could lead to collegiality and lessening the isolation of the classroom but I'll probably be ate for suggesting so.
This is beginning to look like Dev putting the gloves on the oath of allegiance when entering the Dail in 1927.0 -
This position of teaching the specification and now facilitating the external assessment of it while still being barred from attending any in-service around it is baffling.
I think it will become more untenable as other subjects come on stream.
In essence teachers will be doing a lot of the written CBA with the exception of the SLAR. Imo they could lead to collegiality and lessening the isolation of the classroom but I'll probably be ate for suggesting so.
This is beginning to look like Dev putting the gloves on the oath of allegiance when entering the Dail in 1927.
I'm all for collegiality but I have found it hit and miss. A lot egos out there. I often don't agree or have a different approach to colleagues but I think meeting regularly helps0 -
Mrwhite1970 wrote: »I'm all for collegiality but I have found it hit and miss. A lot egos out there. I often don't agree or have a different approach to colleagues but I think meeting regularly helps
God yeah no ego like a teacher's ego!!!!!! My own probably included:D:D0 -
judeboy101 wrote: »Well that's it over then, were are accepting the principle of CBA by facilitating the AT. Absolutely disgraceful from leadership. They have well and truly being bought and paid for.
When will some of you wake up and realise that it's NOT the leadership! It's the ASTI MEMBERS. Your collegues, my collegues, the people we work with and rub shoulders with every single day.
Much and all as you guys want to have somebody to blame with this notion that there is some fictional finger pointing leader fattening himself off union subs and brown envelopes, the reality is ten times more depressing.
And that reality is that the majority of teachers are hugely conservative and at heart don't like to rock the boat and unfortunately,the majority on the SC are that way inclined. Not at CEC but SC where it really counts. In fact there are a great many,probably a majority on SC who would already have us within LRA. And that is how this union is driven,by its members on those committees and how they vote on motions. Not the GS and not the president of the day. So please get your facts straight.
It is bad news, no doubt about that. The only way we can win this battle is to develop a nerve of steel and to not budge one inch. But we all know teachers won't do that, though a few of us are more than willing.
Anyway, I'm not going to partake in whingeing and doom and gloom.All is not lost. There will be branch meetings and convention coming up, an opportunity to get vocal. Many here went overboard with their predictions of yes in the last ballot but it didn't happen so I,for one, still have the fingers crossed.0 -
Mrwhite1970 wrote: »I have marked a lot of portfolio work this year because I did not want to be caught out if the dispute ended. English teachers were left in a very tough place. So am I to tell kids they can't use them ? My marked pieces ? I'm probably not going to do that as the kids redrafted a few of them. I really don't care how that's interpreted as I always felt this task wasn't against the over all spirit of the Asti policy. None of their work leaves the school.
They can use them. Marking work is part of an English teacher's job; drafting and redrafting are specified in the new syllabus which we have all had to teach regardless of industrial action. What ASTI teachers were directed not to do was mark them formally using the descriptors, so there's no issue with your approach. It sounds the same as what other ASTI English teachers I know have been doing.In essence teachers will be doing a lot of the written CBA with the exception of the SLAR. Imo they could lead to collegiality and lessening the isolation of the classroom but I'll probably be ate for suggesting so.
By teaching the syllabus, they have been doing this anyway, regardless of assessment. All students should have a collection of texts, whether it's in a portfolio, online or in a copy.
The SLARs have been portrayed as adversarial and undermining individual teachers' judgement. The main thing I took away from the SLAR training was that the individual teacher's mark stands, regardless of the opinion of his/her colleague.0 -
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This position of teaching the specification and now facilitating the external assessment of it while still being barred from attending any in-service around it is baffling.
I think it will become more untenable as other subjects come on stream.
In essence teachers will be doing a lot of the written CBA with the exception of the SLAR. Imo they could lead to collegiality and lessening the isolation of the classroom but I'll probably be ate for suggesting so.
This is beginning to look like Dev putting the gloves on the oath of allegiance when entering the Dail in 1927.
Relax feardeas. Excepting the bit emboldened above, I pretty much agree with you.Now teaching without in service doesn't bother me personally,because in essence we're still teaching the same thing and I'll be one of the last to accept all this learning outcomes and descriptor feckology because I think it's the greatest heap of bullshyt to ever hit education. However the line should be drawn there if they're banning in service.
As for what I've emboldened,give me the isolation of the classroom any day. All this sitting around at meetings doing a talking shop really does my head in. I want to teach, not talk to other teachers about teaching.0 -
When will some of you wake up and realise that it's NOT the leadership! It's the ASTI MEMBERS. Your collegues, my collegues, the people we work with and rub shoulders with every single day.
Much and all as you guys want to have somebody to blame with this notion that there is some fictional finger pointing leader fattening himself off union subs and brown envelopes, the reality is ten times more depressing.
And that reality is that the majority of teachers are hugely conservative and at heart don't like to rock the boat and unfortunately,the majority on the SC are that way inclined. Not at CEC but SC where it really counts. In fact there are a great many,probably a majority on SC who would already have us within LRA. And that is how this union is driven,by its members on those committees and how they vote on motions. Not the GS and not the president of the day. So please get your facts straight.
It is bad news, no doubt about that. The only way we can win this battle is to develop a nerve of steel and to not budge one inch. But we all know teachers won't do that, though a few of us are more than willing.
Anyway, I'm not going to partake in whingeing and doom and gloom.All is not lost. There will be branch meetings and convention coming up, an opportunity to get vocal. Many here went overboard with their predictions of yes in the last ballot but it didn't happen so I,for one, still have the fingers crossed.
I wouldn't call an 80% vote conservative. And remember it WAS the leadership who did sent us into the wrc stitch up without at least seeing out the 1st week of lockout. Schools across the country were beginning to let teachers and students back using Skelton crews and the leadership who had already decided the previous weekend to jump into wrc (plenty of footage of them laying hints on tv and radio interviews), get a phone call saying that they had just being invited to wrc, my arse they were. Back in Nov for once we had the whole lot of us on the one hymn sheet and the leadership blew it.0 -
judeboy101 wrote: »I wouldn't call an 80% vote conservative. And remember it WAS the leadership who did sent us into the wrc stitch up without at least seeing out the 1st week of lockout. Schools across the country were beginning to let teachers and students back using Skelton crews and the leadership who had already decided the previous weekend to jump into wrc (plenty of footage of them laying hints on tv and radio interviews), get a phone call saying that they had just being invited to wrc, my arse they were. Back in Nov for once we had the whole lot of us on the one hymn sheet and the leadership blew it.
That's rubbish judeboy! Just who is this "leadership" you keep banging on about? The GS? The president? And where is this footage?
I'm on CEC and I've never seen any sign of this mafia style leadership so I'm really curious to know what you know that I don't know? All I've seen is a rather low key GS and other officials, a fairly militant President and vice President and all issues are decided by the members in debate and open ballot.
The decision to go into talks with the TCC last November was made by the SC. A majority backed going into talks.
So again let me say that unless you're privy to some inside information,it's very clear that it was the SC,ordinary working teachers, who blew it.0 -
That's rubbish judeboy! Just who is this "leadership" you keep banging on about? The GS? The president? And where is this footage?
I'm on CEC and I've never seen any sign of this mafia style leadership so I'm really curious to know what you know that I don't know? All I've seen is a rather low key GS and other officials, a fairly militant President and vice President and all issues are decided by the members in debate and open ballot.
The decision to go into talks with the TCC last November was made by the SC. A majority backed going into talks.
So again let me say that unless you're privy to some inside information,it's very clear that it was the SC,ordinary working teachers, who blew it.
So the fact that the president used his powers to bypass the SC and send the debate to ballot to the CEC, without allowing the SC to issue an immediate response was not suspicious? As for footage, 9 O'clock news on the Sunday night before the lockout, they specifically mentioned they were "favorable"to an invite from the wrc. For someone on the CEC, you don't seem to have followed the media performances of our dear leader much.Again you miss the point that 80% of your so called 'Conservative' teachers were willing to go all out for this, but the leaderships incompetence, and at the end of the day, the people based in Hq are the leadership.0 -
We all give out about the ASTi-me included. But Im still very proud of us. Look at the Uk. Their union (Teachers) were like the town bike in terms of their relationship with the Uk Government. We have taken stand after stand. We might have eventually given in but always with a better deal.
I know some Principals have the boot up Teachers arses -sitting in classrooms and even looking at exam corrections but the majority (vast) aint like that. My point is its still a good job
We all Know aspects of the New JC are bull**** but unfortunately we cant stop the curriculum elements. We are not making that effective case in the media-where we might have a chance in turning public opinion. I have not seen English teachers in the media pointing out the errors of the new course. I havnt seen a proper critique of Learning outcomes. For a union of bright people -we have been intellectually remiss in this.
I have done my bit . Have you?0 -
Some news soon ?0
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judeboy101 wrote: »So the fact that the president used his powers to bypass the SC and send the debate to ballot to the CEC, without allowing the SC to issue an immediate response was not suspicious? As for footage, 9 O'clock news on the Sunday night before the lockout, they specifically mentioned they were "favorable"to an invite from the wrc. For someone on the CEC, you don't seem to have followed the media performances of our dear leader much.Again you miss the point that 80% of your so called 'Conservative' teachers were willing to go all out for this, but the leaderships incompetence, and at the end of the day, the people based in Hq are the leadership.
With respect judeboy101, you're the one missing the point. In fact a number of points.
Firstly the President. Can you not see that the fact that he used his powers to send the debate re the TCC proposals directly to CEC proves what I'm trying to tell you? That while there was some chance the more militant CEC might decide not to put it out to ballot,there was NO chance with the more conservative SC.Trying to imply that Ed Byrne is somehow in cohoots with the Govt or favourable to their agenda is like saying that the FG party have a spot spot for unions. In short, ludicrous and completely false. Ed Byrne is as militant,if not more so, than the more militant of us on here. That is the plain truth and I don't like to see people putting out untruths.
As for the 9 o clock news where they said they were "favourable" to talks, just what would you expect them to say? That the minister could go screw himself and shove his talks! Now that would go down well wouldn't it! We were on strike at the time and the aim of any strike is to try to force the other party to at least dialogue,so of course they would put out the message that they were open to talks.
As for the leadership being those in HO, the only ones who count in HO are the GS and the President of the day. The rest are merely officials. Now let's go back a few years when the former GS was in office. This was a man who I didn't particularly trust as I saw him with my own two eyes trying to convince members to give in and vote for HR,despite the wishes of the then CEC. The new GS has done absolutely nothing of that sort and has given me no reason not to trust him. Yes I do keep an eye to his media performances and yes I'd prefer he were a more charismatic presence like Liam Doran,Jack O Connor or David Begg but if we got saddled with any of those three,I'd leave the union on the spot because they are proven hypocrites. A man I'd have great faith in would be Brendan Ogle but we don't have him, we have Kieran Christie and if his only fault is that he's a weak media performer, then I can get over that.
Finally as for the members and this 80%. You seem to have a short memory. ASTI voted to reject CP1 by a huge margin only to capitulate second time round. Ditto with HR, again capitulating on the re-ballot, ditto with the ballots last year, ie a big majority and almost,but not quite a capitulation in the most recent ballot. Why? Because most teachers just won't go the distance.Even before they went into the TCC talks last November huge numbers were whingeing about being out on strike. In fact teachers represent the great bulk of middle Ireland. They get really cross about something and vent their rage in a ballot.Then they whinge to Joe or any one who will listen and always pointing a finger of blame somewhere. But they do nothing and end up accepting the very thing they were so furious about. How many teachers will you find at any given branch meeting? A handful, if lucky. They just cannot be bothered.
And then among teachers and ASTI members you'll find a large right wing group. There is a well known would be President and former CEC member whose blog is the stuff of FG dreams and who is well followed and admired by a very recent past president among others. And there are plenty such people on SC and CEC and indeed in the last ballot many school stewards were peddling the Yes line despite the official recommendation. We are a very divided union most unfortunately.
So my apologies to everyone for this long post but I just won't sit back when untruths and myths are being put out on a public forum. Things are difficult enough and a solution does seem as far away as ever but pointing the finger and blaming certain people when the problem is far more complex, is both wrong and unhelpful.0 -
With respect judeboy101, you're the one missing the point. In fact a number of points.
Firstly the President. Can you not see that the fact that he used his powers to send the debate re the TCC proposals directly to CEC proves what I'm trying to tell you? That while there was some chance the more militant CEC might decide not to put it out to ballot,there was NO chance with the more conservative SC.Trying to imply that Ed Byrne is somehow in cohoots with the Govt or favourable to their agenda is like saying that the FG party have a spot spot for unions. In short, ludicrous and completely false. Ed Byrne is as militant,if not more so, than the more militant of us on here. That is the plain truth and I don't like to see people putting out untruths.
As for the 9 o clock news where they said they were "favourable" to talks, just what would you expect them to say? That the minister could go screw himself and shove his talks! Now that would go down well wouldn't it! We were on strike at the time and the aim of any strike is to try to force the other party to at least dialogue,so of course they would put out the message that they were open to talks.
As for the leadership being those in HO, the only ones who count in HO are the GS and the President of the day. The rest are merely officials. Now let's go back a few years when the former GS was in office. This was a man who I didn't particularly trust as I saw him with my own two eyes trying to convince members to give in and vote for HR,despite the wishes of the then CEC. The new GS has done absolutely nothing of that sort and has given me no reason not to trust him. Yes I do keep an eye to his media performances and yes I'd prefer he were a more charismatic presence like Liam Doran,Jack O Connor or David Begg but if we got saddled with any of those three,I'd leave the union on the spot because they are proven hypocrites. A man I'd have great faith in would be Brendan Ogle but we don't have him, we have Kieran Christie and if his only fault is that he's a weak media performer, then I can get over that.
Finally as for the members and this 80%. You seem to have a short memory. ASTI voted to reject CP1 by a huge margin only to capitulate second time round. Ditto with HR, again capitulating on the re-ballot, ditto with the ballots last year, ie a big majority and almost,but not quite a capitulation in the most recent ballot. Why? Because most teachers just won't go the distance.Even before they went into the TCC talks last November huge numbers were whingeing about being out on strike. In fact teachers represent the great bulk of middle Ireland. They get really cross about something and vent their rage in a ballot.Then they whinge to Joe or any one who will listen and always pointing a finger of blame somewhere. But they do nothing and end up accepting the very thing they were so furious about. How many teachers will you find at any given branch meeting? A handful, if lucky. They just cannot be bothered.
And then among teachers and ASTI members you'll find a large right wing group. There is a well known would be President and former CEC member whose blog is the stuff of FG dreams and who is well followed and admired by a very recent past president among others. And there are plenty such people on SC and CEC and indeed in the last ballot many school stewards were peddling the Yes line despite the official recommendation. We are a very divided union most unfortunately.
So my apologies to everyone for this long post but I just won't sit back when untruths and myths are being put out on a public forum. Things are difficult enough and a solution does seem as far away as ever but pointing the finger and blaming certain people when the problem is far more complex, is both wrong and unhelpful.
1. went into talks without preconditions, our leadership accepted schools reopening
2. President didn't allow SC to put forward its opinion before sending it to CEC
3. If you for one second believe that the president didn't know about the invite to the WRC before the SC meeting on the Tuesday night, then it is YOU who have been told untruths and myths
4. The 80% vote coupled with the turnout was higher than any in the last few years and I stand to be corrected, so no conservative SC or CEC would have gone against any plan the leadership had , based on that mandate. They squandered a unique chance.
5. I agree the previous regime were way to close to government, but experience beats naivity any day0 -
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Is the meeting over0
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