Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

With respect judeboy101, you're the one missing the point. In fact a number of points.

Firstly the President. Can you not see that the fact that he used his powers to send the debate re the TCC proposals directly to CEC proves what I'm trying to tell you? That while there was some chance the more militant CEC might decide not to put it out to ballot,there was NO chance with the more conservative SC.Trying to imply that Ed Byrne is somehow in cohoots with the Govt or favourable to their agenda is like saying that the FG party have a spot spot for unions. In short, ludicrous and completely false. Ed Byrne is as militant,if not more so, than the more militant of us on here. That is the plain truth and I don't like to see people putting out untruths.

As for the 9 o clock news where they said they were "favourable" to talks, just what would you expect them to say? That the minister could go screw himself and shove his talks! Now that would go down well wouldn't it! We were on strike at the time and the aim of any strike is to try to force the other party to at least dialogue,so of course they would put out the message that they were open to talks.

As for the leadership being those in HO, the only ones who count in HO are the GS and the President of the day. The rest are merely officials. Now let's go back a few years when the former GS was in office. This was a man who I didn't particularly trust as I saw him with my own two eyes trying to convince members to give in and vote for HR,despite the wishes of the then CEC. The new GS has done absolutely nothing of that sort and has given me no reason not to trust him. Yes I do keep an eye to his media performances and yes I'd prefer he were a more charismatic presence like Liam Doran,Jack O Connor or David Begg but if we got saddled with any of those three,I'd leave the union on the spot because they are proven hypocrites. A man I'd have great faith in would be Brendan Ogle but we don't have him, we have Kieran Christie and if his only fault is that he's a weak media performer, then I can get over that.

Finally as for the members and this 80%. You seem to have a short memory. ASTI voted to reject CP1 by a huge margin only to capitulate second time round. Ditto with HR, again capitulating on the re-ballot, ditto with the ballots last year, ie a big majority and almost,but not quite a capitulation in the most recent ballot. Why? Because most teachers just won't go the distance.Even before they went into the TCC talks last November huge numbers were whingeing about being out on strike. In fact teachers represent the great bulk of middle Ireland. They get really cross about something and vent their rage in a ballot.Then they whinge to Joe or any one who will listen and always pointing a finger of blame somewhere. But they do nothing and end up accepting the very thing they were so furious about. How many teachers will you find at any given branch meeting? A handful, if lucky. They just cannot be bothered.

And then among teachers and ASTI members you'll find a large right wing group. There is a well known would be President and former CEC member whose blog is the stuff of FG dreams and who is well followed and admired by a very recent past president among others. And there are plenty such people on SC and CEC and indeed in the last ballot many school stewards were peddling the Yes line despite the official recommendation. We are a very divided union most unfortunately.

So my apologies to everyone for this long post but I just won't sit back when untruths and myths are being put out on a public forum. Things are difficult enough and a solution does seem as far away as ever but pointing the finger and blaming certain people when the problem is far more complex, is both wrong and unhelpful.

This is the best post in union politics I have ever read. It brought tears to my eyes for accuracy. I had serious issues about Ed and Kieran but I would never imply they were in cohoots with government. We have crossed texts aqueion but I think we agree that there was poor leadership in past and poor membership. I had thought we had leadership right with Ed and Kieran but they failed us in November. However since they have redeemed themselves as have the members.
Though I don't know exactly what role they did play in November fiasco I know only a small cohort in SC had raised the strategic problems with stepping away from s and s IE it would de facto lead to all out strike. Their failure was to avoid folly and I have seen no evidence they made any serious attempt to avoid that cul de sac but I would like to talk to them personally on this.
They need a plan. The plan is simple. We don't assess our own. Pupils. We continue to strike on equal pay until at least a time line is given. We get clarity on middle mgt. Not waffle
If redundancies occur we strike . Not all out but a few days a week.
As for your reference to that blogger he is a relentless self promotor who because he chimes with Irish times view gets more coverage than he deserves. He does have a constituency within Asti but his popularity is low given that he failed to get elected twice which is saying something given some of the tools we had as VP and president last few years. One in particular

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

That's rubbish judeboy! Just who is this "leadership" you keep banging on about? The GS? The president? And where is this footage?

I'm on CEC and I've never seen any sign of this mafia style leadership so I'm really curious to know what you know that I don't know? All I've seen is a rather low key GS and other officials, a fairly militant President and vice President and all issues are decided by the members in debate and open ballot.

The decision to go into talks with the TCC last November was made by the SC. A majority backed going into talks.

So again let me say that unless you're privy to some inside information,it's very clear that it was the SC,ordinary working teachers, who blew it.

Let's just get one thing straight. The TCC talks were a face saving sham. There was ZERO negotiating going on.
What came out of those 'talks' exactly?

Oh yes... agree to do S&S indefinitely for free and forego pay on many levels.
Dept. came out on top and are delighted. They have little concern for student learning. It all about saving money and putting it elsewhere for a ministerial photo op.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

1. went into talks without preconditions, our leadership accepted schools reopening
2. President didn't allow SC to put forward its opinion before sending it to CEC
3. If you for one second believe that the president didn't know about the invite to the WRC before the SC meeting on the Tuesday night, then it is YOU who have been told untruths and myths
4. The 80% vote coupled with the turnout was higher than any in the last few years and I stand to be corrected, so no conservative SC or CEC would have gone against any plan the leadership had , based on that mandate. They squandered a unique chance.
5. I agree the previous regime were way to close to government, but experience beats naivity any day

Excuse me but I happen to know the president personally. I don't think you do. And I'm getting sick of trying to tell you that he is one of us and that you're plain wrong. There was no big plan by leadership to hijack the campaign as you seem to so desperately want to believe.Yes it all turned into a debacle and the leaders have publicly admitted responsibility for this.I have heard Ed Byrne admit that they made a mistake, both at CEC and at a branch meeting. So what more do you want? A witch hunt?

And as for the unique mandate,while I too stand to be corrected,the original ballots on CPA and HRA had a rejection margin almost, if not as high as that 80%. And the high turn out was down to school based ballots which is only a very recent initiative,only decided on at last year's convention. So don't imply that teachers suddenly got up off their arses,they didn't.

So stop acting as if teachers are all a great bunch of committed activists because they are far away from that. You have obviously decided to blame the union leaders as you seem to need to nail it on somebody and you just don't want to see it any other way. Not helpful!

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Excuse me but I happen to know the president personally. I don't think you do. And I'm getting sick of trying to tell you that he is one of us and that you're plain wrong. There was no big plan by leadership to hijack the campaign as you seem to so desperately want to believe.Yes it all turned into a debacle and the leaders have publicly admitted responsibility for this.I have heard Ed Byrne admit that they made a mistake, both at CEC and at a branch meeting. So what more do you want? A witch hunt?

And as for the unique mandate,while I too stand to be corrected,the original ballots on CPA and HRA had a rejection margin almost, if not as high as that 80%. And the high turn out was down to school based ballots which is only a very recent initiative,only decided on at last year's convention. So don't imply that teachers suddenly got up off their arses,they didn't.

So stop acting as if teachers are all a great bunch of committed activists because they are far away from that. You have obviously decided to blame the union leaders as you seem to need to nail it on somebody and you just don't want to see it any other way. Not helpful!

You seem to want to blame the membership and dismiss the collective will and determination we had in November before it was pulled from under us. Maybe the fact you "know" the president clouds your objectivity, methinks you need to take of the rose-tinted glasses.

MrJones1973

Let's take it from where we are. The campaigns go on. Members now with real threat of redundancy. This has been bogey man of all campaigns. I'm sure actions of November will be explored and explained at conference but let's keep solidarity with those about to be possibly fired. Nov has nothing to do with that. It only paused the logical path to this . Ie end game confrontation with government over redundancy. Whoever blinks loses
Tit for tat on this site is no succour to them. A plan is

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

You seem to want to blame the membership and dismiss the collective will and determination we had in November before it was pulled from under us. Maybe the fact you "know" the president clouds your objectivity, methinks you need to take of the rose-tinted glasses.

No it doesn't. But you seem the type who will bullishly only believe what you want to anyway. I'm not black and white like you. If you read my posts with a more open mind you would see that I'm not blaming anyone. That's my very point. I said that it's a very complex issue with the main problem being that we are so divided. Neither leaders or members are perfect and all have and still are making mistakes.An open mind is all I'd like but unfortunately judeboy, though we're on the same side re how we vote,open mindedness seems too much to ask of you.

km79

So no news then..........?

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

Is the meeting over

CEC are to meet to discuss the campaign

acequion

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Let's just get one thing straight. The TCC talks were a face saving sham. There was ZERO negotiating going on.
What came out of those 'talks' exactly?

Oh yes... agree to do S&S indefinitely for free and forego pay on many levels.
Dept. came out on top and are delighted. They have little concern for student learning. It all about saving money and putting it elsewhere for a ministerial photo op.

You're right Gebgbegb. And something needs to happen and happen soon for all of those stuck in S&S. I'm one of the lucky ones who was able to buy out but it's just not good enough to leave people stuck with this.

Again I urge people to get active and vocal. Annoy HO with mails and go and speak out at the next branch meeting. Getting involved is the only way as everything in this concerns everybody in some way.

judeboy101

" I'm not black and white like you."

No need to bring race into this. The colour of my skin should have no bearing on my opinions.

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

CEC are to meet to discuss the campaign

2 days of meetings and that's what's decided !
There is no strategy whatsoever apart from "wait and hope for the best "
Over a month after the ballot and the CEC meets to discuss the campaign ?

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

2 days of meetings and that's what's decided !
There is no strategy whatsoever apart from "wait and hope for the best "
Over a month after the ballot and the CEC meets to discuss the campaign ?

That little Italian place on dame street must need customers:D

man_no_plan

Ah lads.

Members agitate against issues.
Leadership follow directions of convention and issue a ballot for industrial action.
Overwhelming support by members.
Strike action taken, unpopular with the same members who voted for it, TCC talks, very little gain, put back to members, rejected.
Industrial action continues.

Leadership are trying to undermine members?

You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want gains you have to take action. Its easy to sit at a keyboard and say x y or z should be done, the critical mass needed for meaningful action doesn't exist. No leadership team can mobilise a group that don't want to be mobilised.

I would be critical of ASTI strategy. I think they should be fighting from inside LRA, but its ASTI member s who decided to stay out. They know full well what options are and aren't available. Talk of hitting the exams is cheap.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

Ah lads.

Members agitate against issues.
Leadership follow directions of convention and issue a ballot for industrial action.
Overwhelming support by members.
Strike action taken, unpopular with the same members who voted for it, TCC talks, very little gain, put back to members, rejected.
Industrial action continues.

Leadership are trying to undermine members?

You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want gains you have to take action. Its easy to sit at a keyboard and say x y or z should be done, the critical mass needed for meaningful action doesn't exist. No leadership team can mobilise a group that don't want to be mobilised.

I would be critical of ASTI strategy. I think they should be fighting from inside LRA, but its ASTI member s who decided to stay out. They know full well what options are and aren't available. Talk of hitting the exams is cheap.

Hitting the exams causes maximum damage to public but zero damages to members wallets (and many members think with their wallets when strike days come). Anyone who thinks that we need the public on our side should remember that the guards blackmailed the state into giving them 4k a year by threatening the security of every man woman and child in the country.The irish have short memories, just look at FF ffs. If we dont even put the idea of a threat to the exams out there sure we might as well pack up and go home.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

" I'm not black and white like you."

No need to bring race into this. The colour of my skin should have no bearing on my opinions.

LOL :D Hope that means we're friends again!

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

Hitting the exams causes maximum damage to public but zero damages to members wallets (and many members think with their wallets when strike days come). Anyone who thinks that we need the public on our side should remember that the guards blackmailed the state into giving them 4k a year by threatening the security of every man woman and child in the country.The irish have short memories, just look at FF ffs. If we dont even put the idea of a threat to the exams out there sure we might as well pack up and go home.

I agree... what you don't want in an industrial dispute is public support (once they're not put out in any way).

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

Ah lads.

Members agitate against issues.
Leadership follow directions of convention and issue a ballot for industrial action.
Overwhelming support by members.
Strike action taken, unpopular with the same members who voted for it, TCC talks, very little gain, put back to members, rejected.
Industrial action continues.

Leadership are trying to undermine members?

You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want gains you have to take action. Its easy to sit at a keyboard and say x y or z should be done, the critical mass needed for meaningful action doesn't exist. No leadership team can mobilise a group that don't want to be mobilised.

I would be critical of ASTI strategy. I think they should be fighting from inside LRA, but its ASTI member s who decided to stay out. They know full well what options are and aren't available. Talk of hitting the exams is cheap.

I agree with almost everything you say except the last bit. You've very nicely and concisely summed up what I've been trying to say all evening. And it's true that so many people criticise from their keyboards without taking any real action. And the bit emboldened is really spot on.

But I don't agree about the exams. Yes it's a hard hit and a horrible one but we are now at a point where we simply have to hit hard if we want results.Nothing will be achieved by dialogue,we've tried that route and got nowhere so we have to have the guts to take it further.

Personally I'd be happy to bide my time as is. I don't have a huge number of years left so the stalling game suits me fine. But it's not good enough for education and not good enough for the profession. The S&S situation needs to be sorted, there needs to be a commitment to pay parity over time, we need more concessions on the JCT. And these things will not get sorted in the near future without some big push from us. So I would support a hit on the exams, albeit with a heavy heart.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

LOL :D Hope that means we're friends again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTFE8cirkdQ

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

I agree with almost everything you say except the last bit. You've very nicely and concisely summed up what I've been trying to say all evening. And it's true that so many people criticise from their keyboards without taking any real action. And the bit emboldened is really spot on.

But I don't agree about the exams. Yes it's a hard hit and a horrible one but we are now at a point where we simply have to hit hard if we want results.Nothing will be achieved by dialogue,we've tried that route and got nowhere so we have to have the guts to take it further.

Personally I'd be happy to bide my time as is. I don't have a huge number of years left so the stalling game suits me fine. But it's not good enough for education and not good enough for the profession. The S&S situation needs to be sorted, there needs to be a commitment to pay parity over time, we need more concessions on the JCT. And these things will not get sorted in the near future without some big push from us. So I would support a hit on the exams, albeit with a heavy heart.

Talk is cheap was the point, is hitting the exams the only really effective strategy? Its easy to talk about doing it but a ballot will not be carried imo so they arent going there.

ASTI are like a LC class who all want the A. Some, like you and others here, will do whatever it takes extra work give up the social life etc for the grade. Others will tell everyone how good they are at the subject and hiw they want an A and how they're going to work so hard etc but they haven the willpower or possibly the ability to see whats needed. Then you have the last group, they will be out every Saturday night, working the part time job, doing no homework and them not getting the A? Its the teachers fault!

I'd forget the exams for the minute and shut down the schools in the constituency of every government minister on a rolling basis for two weeks, then I'd shut them down for two days a week, the following week it would be three days and so on.

I would ask for teachers in un affected schools to contribute to a strike fund to allay the losses of those the taking action.

If you close schools work can be set before and after you can still prepare your classes well for exams. If you hit the exams and candidates cant sit them at all you take a year from their lives. Its a big call to make.

deiseindublin

What exactly might "hitting the exams" mean?

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

What exactly might "hitting the exams" mean?

No ballot needed as this would be a work to rule. Withdraw from co-op with orals and practical's, use "blue-flu" style tactics to avoid any contractual issues, tell all asti members to ring cornamaddy week before exams pull out of invigilation and same for correctors conference use "blu-flu" scenario again. All legal costs us nothing and all easily fixable for 6th yrs as there flexibility built into sec timetable.

Bean Scoile

judeboy101 wrote: »

All legal costs us nothing and all easily fixable for 6th yrs as there flexibility built into sec timetable.

How does is cost us nothing? Pulling out of the exams would cost me €2000.

judeboy101

Bean Scoile wrote: »

How does is cost us nothing? Pulling out of the exams would cost me €2000.

Technically you pay more in tax, usc and prsi plus levies than you receive from corrections. You do corrections as a private citizen not as a teachers. There a number of non teachers who correct. You'd be better using your summer to relax (assuming you are full time)

Moody_mona

I'll do whatever my union requires of me, but I don't think it's fair to tell someone how they should spend their summer judeboy. If I spent three months relaxing, I'd go mad, my friends aren't all teachers so I'd be on my own and doing nothing. Also, regardless of how much money goes in tax, the exam payment will fund a holiday for me every year.

Bean Scoile

judeboy101 wrote: »

Technically you pay more in tax, usc and prsi plus levies than you receive from corrections. You do corrections as a private citizen not as a teachers. There a number of non teachers who correct. You'd be better using your summer to relax (assuming you are full time)

I realise that not everyone corrects, and that a lot of people don't think it's worth it, but I do, and I'm happy enough with €2000 for a months work. For those who do correct, Asti telling us not to would cost us money.

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

Technically you pay more in tax, usc and prsi plus levies than you receive from corrections. You do corrections as a private citizen not as a teachers. There a number of non teachers who correct. You'd be better using your summer to relax (assuming you are full time)

Yes but that is the mindset for a lot of teachers
It won't work
Sure I only have to look at our school to see the majority of NQTs that would not go out on strike for THEMSELVES

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

Yes but that is the mindset for a lot of teachers
It won't work
Sure I only have to look at our school to see the majority of NQTs that would not go out on strike for THEMSELVES

Short term gain long term pain ��

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

Short term gain long term pain ��

This is the problem judeboy. They're just not that into it.

acequion

Bean Scoile wrote: »

How does is cost us nothing? Pulling out of the exams would cost me €2000.

And me also Bean Scoile. I'd far rather relax than spend July correcting but as I have never wanted a post I have to supplement my income as our pay is poor,something that we've stopped fighting for as we have so many other battles. Not so the nurses and guards. But to get back to the point we have to be prepared to make sacrifices and agree to a strategy so I would roll in behind the union if they decided to hit the exams.

However I don't see it happening. Man-no-plan makes some excellent suggestions in his post. But in any case something will have to be decided and we will all have to get on board. Otherwise no point.

Bean Scoile

I have no problem with following the party line if we are instructed to pull out of SEC activities, I just have a problem with people saying it will cost us nothing.