Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

judeboy101

For me, I cudnt care less about the money. I just don't want to spend the next 20 years regretting the fact I stopped being a teacher and became a box ticker.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I fundamentally disagree with the above point. A popular striker is an oxymoron. Pissing off the public=pressure on Government=better deal.
Look at Luas/Bus/Guards-all ready to go out and piss off Joe public.


A lot of teachers I think just wanted to grandtand-ah sure look we did the few days for the poor old new recruits.

I might indeed vote for whatever they throw us-why bother when 3 days is the height of our efforts!
Schools have no middle Mgt-our terms and conditions ripped up. Three pay scales and the mighty ASTi does 3 days. We are a joke.
I wont be commenting further. It just makes me depressed.
S and S allowance derisory Id get better money cleaning toilets..

No we most certainly are not a joke and speak for yourself but I don't know anyone who was merely grandstanding!

While you may be well meaning deep down mrwhite,being too militant is nearly as bad as being too compliant. Neither stance gets us anywhere. The time for your bitter strike was years ago,I would pinpoint it at when we caved on joining HR. Since then they know they have over the coals and they won't bend easily. So a long and bitter strike at this point in time could be very long indeed.

In my opinion the only mistake our SC made was in not allowing principals sort supervision and in not foreseeing where that would lead. That led to the lock out which was starting to get very messy. You do also realise that the Gov just don't want to talk to the ASTI unless we join the LRA! So those days at the end of mid term when we were all wondering how "negotiations" were going,they basically weren't going at all. So when a marriage reaches that point the only hope is mediation. Years ago they might have been willing to negotiate. These days their attitude to teachers is unbelievably appalling, hardened by our constant capitulation.

For all your complaining did you write to the ASTI to know what the hell what was going on when they "caved in"? Because I did and I've talked to quite a few people and I'm satisfied that the right thing was done.

And that doesn't mean all is lost,though we are trying to regain a lot of what we let go when cave ins were the order of the day under the last GS. So we won't get everything we want or even close. But if we don't like what's on offer we can reject. I will certainly reject it if I feel it's too weak. Maybe I'm too much of an optimist but I'm hopeful that mediation will yield results especially in the recently changed landscape of the LRA.

I do agree with you though that our fight is with the Government and that there's no point worrying about public opinion. But we'll never be able to spook them the way the Gardai did, so if we do find ourselves head to head with them again we'll have to be more clever.

And without a union we'd be chicken feed at this stage.

MrJones1973

I still believe 3 days is a joke. As for SC not foreseeing it would close schools ? Jeez if they didn't for see that one wonders about their capacity for leadership. They played a bluff with the government and lost that move. Schools closed by s and s. I would have kept going . I can't see us going out again. Perhaps you can. Let's just wait and see. But we will get a better deal because of 3 days but tweak will be more apt
As for the guards they basically mutinied and got away with it. It's a fluid situation.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I still believe 3 days is a joke. As for SC not foreseeing it would close schools ? Jeez if they didn't for see that one wonders about their capacity for leadership. They played a bluff with the government and lost that move. Schools closed by s and s. I would have kept going . I can't see us going out again. Perhaps you can. Let's just wait and see. But we will get a better deal because of 3 days but tweak will be more apt
As for the guards they basically mutinied and got away with it. It's a fluid situation.

You just can't compare the guards to the teachers. They couldn't risk having guards on strike,that's a risk to the state. Teachers on strike just means kids don't get to school and they couldn't give a shyt about that. Also guards are mainly men,teachers are mainly women, so easier to push around in this still male dominated country. And I'm a woman saying that!

Re the SC they did foresee that it would close schools. But they didn't foresee the teachers being taken off the payroll. And I'm still wondering how on earth that can be legal???

But I certainly would have kept going too. And why wouldn't teachers go out again? Maybe you're under estimating them!

political analyst

acequion wrote: »

You just can't compare the guards to the teachers. They couldn't risk having guards on strike,that's a risk to the state. Teachers on strike just means kids don't get to school and they couldn't give a shyt about that. Also guards are mainly men,teachers are mainly women, so easier to push around in this still male dominated country. And I'm a woman saying that!

Re the SC they did foresee that it would close schools. But they didn't foresee the teachers being taken off the payroll. And I'm still wondering how on earth that can be legal???

But I certainly would have kept going too.

And have ASTI members be evicted from their homes because they cannot pay the rent?

Acceptance of HRA meant that S&S became officially part of teachers' jobs and not doing S&S meant that many secondary schools couldn't open. Therefore, the decision to take the teachers in those schools off the payroll for the day on which they were closed is legal.

acequion

political analyst wrote: »

And have ASTI members be evicted from their homes because they cannot pay the rent?

Acceptance of HRA meant that S&S became officially part of teachers' jobs and not doing S&S meant that many secondary schools couldn't open. Therefore, the decision to take the teachers in those schools off the payroll for the day on which they were closed is legal.

So you're an expert now are you?? Even though by your own admission you're not a teacher.

Well I am and I'm so well aware of this whole area of HRA, LRA that I'm heartily sick of it but:

1. I would dispute that HR made S&S part of the job. If it were part of the core job opt out would not be possible. If that were the case I could say that next year I only want to do 18 and not 22 hours. So I'll opt out of four hours!

2. How in God's name can it be legal to charge an employee for not doing a particular job and then docking the day's pay of said employee for not being able to access the building to not do said job? Like I said on another thread,you couldn't make that one up!

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

So you're an expert now are you?? Even though by your own admission you're not a teacher.

Well I am and I'm so well aware of this whole area of HRA, LRA that I'm heartily sick of it but:

1. I would dispute that HR made S&S part of the job. If it were part of the core job opt out would not be possible. If that were the case I could say that next year I only want to do 18 and not 22 hours. So I'll opt out of four hours!

2. How in God's name can it be legal to charge an employee for not doing a particular job and then docking the day's pay of said employee for not being able to access the building to not do said job? Like I said on another thread,you couldn't make that one up!

The word is that the ASTI TUI and INTO are all at the TCC talking about whatever it is they're talking about.

Id say a fresh optout, maybe a speed up on the CP hours going less structured and the H.Dip allowance being restored too.

But....all within LRA?

km79

man_no_plan wrote: »

The word is that the ASTI TUI and INTO are all at the TCC talking about whatever it is they're talking about.

Id say a fresh optout, maybe a speed up on the CP hours going less structured and the H.Dip allowance being restored too.

But....all within LRA?

Let me get this right ........we have given up 3 day's pay before Xmas BUT the other 2 unions are now party to the same talks
LOL
So utterly predictable

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

The word is that the ASTI TUI and INTO are all at the TCC talking about whatever it is they're talking about.

Id say a fresh optout, maybe a speed up on the CP hours going less structured and the H.Dip allowance being restored too.

But....all within LRA?

Yes we were told at a branch meeting that the other teacher unions would also be brought into the talks as the deal will concern everybody. But seemingly they were not to be brought in until the end so could they be nearing the end already? That seems a bit fast, too fast maybe.

As for what it might all entail,that's anybody's guess.

MrJones1973

You can expect practically nothing for new teachers. A h dip allowance is worth what? A couple of hundred? No middle Mgt but ye all seem fine with that. All of you here give impression your schools have enough posts !! And sure the JC is fine too? Im rambling. Tired. Talk in a few weeks!

Whatever is proposed will be passed. Bet money with any of you.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

Let me get this right ........we have given up 3 day's pay before Xmas BUT the other 2 unions are now party to the same talks
LOL
So utterly predictable

I know. And I agree with you. And there was quite a lot of resentment expressed about that at the meeting. But seemingly that's the way it is.

I don't want to get into a row with my TUI collegues here, the majority of whom are sound and supportive,but looking at my pay packet today, well of course I'm resentful too.

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You can expect practically nothing for new teachers. A h dip allowance is worth what? A couple of hundred? No middle Mgt but ye all seem fine with that. All of you here give impression your schools have enough posts !! And sure the JC is fine too? Im rambling. Tired. Talk in a few weeks!

Whatever is proposed will be passed. Bet money with any of you.

Absolutely 1000% will be accepted no matter what
And the govt know that

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You can expect practically nothing for new teachers. A h dip allowance is worth what? A couple of hundred? No middle Mgt but ye all seem fine with that. All of you here give impression your schools have enough posts !! And sure the JC is fine too? Im rambling. Tired. Talk in a few weeks!

Whatever is proposed will be passed. Bet money with any of you.

No I'm not fine about the JC. Far from it! And as an English teacher it already affects me. And no way am I supporting any deal unless there are a lot of changes to that.

Re posts,no my school doesn't have enough either. But I've no intention of taking up the slack. I never wanted a post even when I could have got one. So I'll be damned if I do any of that work for free.

Whether or not some new deal will be passed,time will tell. I'll worry about it when I have to.

political analyst

acequion wrote: »

No I'm not fine about the JC. Far from it! And as an English teacher it already affects me. And no way am I supporting any deal unless there are a lot of changes to that.

Why?

The CBA itself is part of the JCPA, which is separate from the State exam. The AT is part of the State exam and so will be corrected externally.

acequion wrote: »

Re posts,no my school doesn't have enough either. But I've no intention of taking up the slack. I never wanted a post even when I could have got one. So I'll be damned if I do any of that work for free.

Whether or not some new deal will be passed,time will tell. I'll worry about it when I have to.

Surely, the larger schools still have some middle-management positions - it may not seem like many but it's better than none at all.

seavill

political analyst wrote: »

acequion wrote: »

No I'm not fine about the JC. Far from it! And as an English teacher it already affects me. And no way am I supporting any deal unless there are a lot of changes to that.

Why?

The CBA itself is part of the JCPA, which is separate from the State exam. The AT is part of the State exam and so will be corrected externally.

acequion wrote: »

Re posts,no my school doesn't have enough either. But I've no intention of taking up the slack. I never wanted a post even when I could have got one. So I'll be damned if I do any of that work for free.

Whether or not some new deal will be passed,time will tell. I'll worry about it when I have to.

Surely, the larger schools still have some middle-management positions - it may not seem like many but it's better than none at all.

Better than none haha brilliant. The government would be proud of a comment like that.

Imagine those pesky teachers thinking that they should have "enough" posts to run a school properly.
They should be glad they have a couple. Sure it's better than none isn't it

Brilliant logic

happywithlife

Was talking to some colleagues yesterday regarding payscale etc and the topic of moving up the scale came up. One of the NQT's said it's impossible for some of them to move up the scale if their hours aren't contracted - so just say someone on very low hours was constantly subbing for a year but in a casual way - if the hours weren't part of their contract they don't get counted in the 600 hour requirement to move up the scale. Surely this is wrong and all teaching work be they contracted hours or substitution are counted?

judeboy101

Deadline for talks is the 3rd Dec. Here's what will happen. Same deal tui got with some movement on CP hours and allowances. S&s to become core duty with opt out. Pay commission to look at pay equality/restoration. CEC will have to put it to members which means no result til Jan. SC will tell gov that pending result giv should prepare contingency plans. CEC/SC will not issue recommendation re ballot.

feardeas

judeboy101 wrote:

Deadline for talks is the 3rd Dec. Here's what will happen. Same deal tui got with some movement on CP hours and allowances. S&s to become core duty with opt out. Pay commission to look at pay equality/restoration. CEC will have to put it to members which means no result til Jan. SC will tell gov that pending result giv should prepare contingency plans. CEC/SC will not issue recommendation re ballot.

Not sure how opt out would be feasible. Secondly if this or whatever comes from the mediation goes to ballot without recommendation then it is a shocking lack of leadership.

deiseindublin

judeboy101 wrote: »

CEC/SC will not issue recommendation re ballot.

No matter what the deal ends up, it's an absolute joke if there's no recommendation. P*ss or get off the pot.

judeboy101

feardeas wrote: »

Not sure how opt out would be feasible. Secondly if this or whatever comes from the mediation goes to ballot without recommendation then it is a shocking lack of leadership.

Opt out is feasible due to fact opt out ceased on Monday 7th. Anyone who had opted out but was in school teaching had their opt out fee decreased to reflect that. Any employment solicitor worth his salt could win a case claiming the old opt out contract was default as of 7th. DES want s&s as part of core and union will agree subject to optout just like last time. It'll be a sweetener to the membership imho.

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

Opt out is feasible due to fact opt out ceased on Monday 7th. Anyone who had opted out but was in school teaching had their opt out fee decreased to reflect that. Any employment solicitor worth his salt could win a case claiming the old opt out contract was default as of 7th. DES want s&s as part of core and union will agree subject to optout just like last time. It'll be a sweetener to the membership imho.

What kind of an opt out ?
It kind of got lost in all the moaning recently than some people were not given the option to opt out at all last time around !
So would it be an opt out for all OR a select few again

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

What kind of an opt out ?
It kind of got lost in all the moaning recently than some people were not given the option to opt out at all last time around !
So would it be an opt out for all OR a select few again

A new opt in opt out for all. Those who stay in it becomes core duty and pensionable. Those out take the pain BUT this time it will be index linked so that unlike the last opt out which was €1700 forever, this time it will increase with inflation.

ccazza

My opt out hasn't ceased since 7th November. I'm still paying exactly the same amount to opt out.

judeboy101

ccazza wrote: »

My opt out hasn't ceased since 7th November. I'm still paying exactly the same amount to opt out.

And there lies the problem. Some peoples opt out fee never changed whereas others did.legally the circular from the dept terminated your opt out on the 7th as a permanent thing. It is my belief you are now opting out on an ad hoc basis and can opt back in any time you want.

dory

feardeas wrote: »

Not sure how opt out would be feasible. Secondly if this or whatever comes from the mediation goes to ballot without recommendation then it is a shocking lack of leadership.

We've had ballot before with no recommendation so I wouldn't be surprised at all. This is a joke. Lost three days pay for nothing. I feel like throwing in the towel on the JC, let them have their lower standards. I'm sick of it.

MrJones1973

dory wrote: »

We've had ballot before with no recommendation so I wouldn't be surprised at all. This is a joke. Lost three days pay for nothing. I feel like throwing in the towel on the JC, let them have their lower standards. I'm sick of it.

I share many of your sentiments but let's just see what's put to members and if they are with recommendations . I have lost faith in SC over not foreseeing members being taken off payroll. No explanation given. We could see a talks collapse but more likely a **** deal with SC recommending rejection.

Icsics

Everything is on the table in these talks, so we'll end up with JCert, CP hrs & some tweaking of S&S all back in. People are very disillusioned with how ASTI handled (or didn't) this strike & will vote to just end it at this stage. DES were always one step ahead & had the JMB onside. There needs to be a clear out in ASTI head office after this fiasco & SC seriously reviewed, for the leaks alone & as for the non existent 'legal advice'..!!

km79

Icsics wrote: »

Everything is on the table in these talks, so we'll end up with JCert, CP hrs & some tweaking of S&S all back in. People are very disillusioned with how ASTI handled (or didn't) this strike & will vote to just end it at this stage. DES were always one step ahead & had the JMB onside. There needs to be a clear out in ASTI head office after this fiasco & SC seriously reviewed, for the leaks alone & as for the non existent 'legal advice'..!!

Agree with all of that
There could be a fair few switching union too

Icsics

Best we can hope for is they drag out the ballot so delay CP hrs & all the rest coming in on top of us.

acequion

The whingeing and the moaning out of some of ye is just unreal!! And people talking about changing union? Really! To go where exactly? To the TUI who always roll over first!

Just what have the ASTI done that is really such a "joke", "fiasco" "shocking lack of leadership" just to quote some of the hyperboles?

The ASTI ballotted for strike action and got 80% approval and so we went on strike. Just what did you guys expect to happen? Did ye think that just because we pulled S&S and actually went out for the NQT's that the Gov were just going to roll over and all our problems would just disappear? Did ye really and truly think that that's all it would take to get rid of unpaid S&S and CP? Did ye not realise that it would get very messy,that that is the nature of industrial disputes.Because if ye didn't realise that then ye are very naive. And if ye weren't going to be able to take it when the shyt hit the fan why didn't ye vote no? I could understand a no voter wanting to change union. But a yes voter!!

I have often been critical of the ASTI leadership but not this time.They have done exactly what the members mandated them to do. There was always a risk that pulling S&S meant we could be locked outside gates without pay and any enlightened voter should have realised that risk when voting.Striking is exchanging the security of going to work everyday for entering the unknown. We knew or should have known that when voting. And into the unknown we went and that unknown took us into mediation whose outcome we now await.How is that "a joke" or "a fiasco"?

Granted the ASTI isn't perfect,the leaders aren't perfect, nor are the SC,the CEC or indeed the members, any of us. We are just one group of people trying to stand up against an increasingly unjust and uncaring employer and for that alone I am proud.

Maybe you guys just want to vent. But jesus if you must bash, bash the employer, the Government, who at the end of the day are the ones to blame for all of this.