Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

deiseindublin

He

mtoutlemonde

acequion wrote: »

The posts tonight range from pure fiction to downright idiocy.

Take a look at this one for a piece of fiction:



And look at how fast a figment of the mind, a piece of idle conjecture, gains traction:



I'd say a re-ballot at this stage is as fantastical as Enda Kenny moving into the White House! Total fabrication!

But the prize for downright lunacy has to go to this post:



Really! You're not unhappy with the DES,the crowd who have run your working conditions into the ground,but you're very unhappy with the ASTI, whoever those dreadful people are, for having the gall to try to stand up for you. Wow! Some trade unionist you are!

Just to be clear - I'm not happy with the DES with all the things they're doing to our profession but they said they were going to do x,y and z - and they did it - not just talking about. The ASTI said they were withdrawing S&S and then went into talks in November, December, January, February and here we are in March - no better off except for a poster hanging in headquarters. I don't feel they're standing up for me or anyone. I hope that explains it better.

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Plan A ... withdraw from S&S. I think that's what ASTI originally balloted to do!

Yeah but they made a hatchet job of it by putting a gun to the head of the DES on pay restoration by August xxth. The writing was on the wall for an all out dispute as soon as that ballot paper was printed.

Too many irons in the fire. But yet again members voted on that early in the summer? S/S ballot wasn't till October?

Icsics

acequion wrote: »

The posts tonight range from pure fiction to downright idiocy.

Take a look at this one for a piece of fiction:



And look at how fast a figment of the mind, a piece of idle conjecture, gains traction:



I'd say a re-ballot at this stage is as fantastical as Enda Kenny moving into the White House! Total fabrication!

But the prize for downright lunacy has to go to this post:



Really! You're not unhappy with the DES,the crowd who have run your working conditions into the ground,but you're very unhappy with the ASTI, whoever those dreadful people are, for having the gall to try to stand up for you. Wow! Some trade unionist you are!

Not fiction at all...a branch collected enough signatures requesting a reballot, it went before SC & passed by 1 vote.
So special CEC called to 'discuss ind action', watch this space

joebloggs32

Icsics wrote: »

Not fiction at all...a branch collected enough signatures requesting a reballot, it went before SC & passed by 1 vote.
So special CEC called to 'discuss ind action', watch this space

I heard that too.

acequion

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Yes but that backbone has been tested so many times with little organisation and follow through. Last time the appetite for indefinite action was there to force the issue to a head, but union in head office blinked first under the paltry charade of 'talks'.


Where are the ASTI leadership leading us to now?

"Backbone!" What backbone? I've never seen much backbone as you call it from ASTI members when the chips are down. Oh they seem to love venting their rage every few years voting for strike in huge numbers. But they haven't the patience or the tolerance to see anything through. I saw none of this great "appetite" for indefinite action last time round. People were ok enough about doing the odd strike day for LPT's but as soon as the shyt hit the fan with the lock out most were running scared and turning on the leaders. So to answer the emboldened question,they're leading us wherever the members want to go. How many of you guys on here attend your branch meetings? How many are going to convention? How many email HO regularly with your ideas and input?How many of you feel strongly enough about the issues that you try to get yourselves elected on to committees? I'd hazard a guess and say not many of you. It's much easier to give out about the "leadership"from a keyboard while doing sweet F.all.

feardeas wrote: »

How in the name of all that is holy did the ASTI gain anything. Nonsense. Utter and complete nonsense. The TUI and INTO went into talks in August last year, talks which the ASTI declined to enter by virtue of the CP vote in May. That's where the offer came for. The idea that what came from those was gained by the threat of industrial action by ASTI is the definition of an alternative fact.

I was told months ago on this forum that if my views aligned with TUI to join them. Now when someone does that there's a hissy fit. This agreement is a gentlemanly understanding, by all accounts. The public sector committee of Congress accepted LRA. A whole staff left prior to the strike. Heard that from someone on SC while being drenched at the gate on the last strike day.

Good God people the ire should be pointed at the lack of direction. Unless unfurling a banner is direction. I'd say the lads in Molesworth St aren't over the shock yet.

Is it any wonder people are leaving if this is what's happening never mind the derision that was pointed at people who voted yes, 48% BTW.

At the end of the day CEC and SC got their result nearly 6 weeks ago. The only people that can be held responsible for inaction or praised for any possible positive are those committee. Complaining about people leaving, joining another union is as useful as an umbrella in a hurricane.

The idea that the INTO and TUI engineered the paltry pay increase for LPTs is downright laughable as is your naivete in assuming that the threat of industrial action from ASTI had nothing to do with it. If you believe that you'll believe anything! In seven years of these agreements just what have TUI or INTO on their own achieved for the good of teachers? Absolutely nothing, that's what.

All this talk of lack of direction is becoming increasingly tiresome.As a TUI poster has already pointed out,just what are people expecting?? What is this great master plan they all want? We refused to sign up to an agreement therefore we are now not part of said agreement. We refused to accept the assessment component of the new JC therefore we are continuing on with our non cooperation. All that was made clear to members before the last ballot.It was also made clear that strike action would follow any threat of redundancy.The union are doing exactly as was stated before the ballot. And indeed the Govt are too. So this is a high stakes game and personally I'm glad that nothing is being done in haste.

As for people joining TUI, that poster came on almost gloating about the back pay he /she would be getting which I found extremely crass and also poor taste as many of us are prepared to make the financial sacrifice to see this through.

While I respect the fact that you have always been consistent in your opposition to the union, I am beyond disgusted at the fickleness of some of the members. I actually have a lot of faith in the commitment and integrity of the people on the committees but unfortunately not in the rank and file membership.

MrJones1973

Sometimes I think this Topic achieves little. You all pretty much have your views. I dont think Feadras is going to change because of anything posted here. But one thing you cant argue with Aqueion on is participation. If you dont bother going to branch meetings or run for anything-what credibility do you have? An e mail to head office?

Sometimes standing from the outside-it always looks easy. Throw in an anti Asti media and you can get a pretty bad Picture.

ASTI is a democracy. I ran for SC once and failed but I was happy with guy who took my place . Pretty much all of SC elected. Did you all vote for your SC? Every member had a vote at sometime for SC. If unhappy with them-challenge them next time. Lead follow or get the fxxx out of the way.
I will continue to vote no to any deal. My days as an active ASTI member are probably at an end. I did half a decade on CEC and other five years at branch level.
Democracy can suck-look at the USA or who we elected before the boom. But its the best system .
I shall not post here again on this issue.
I admire all your passions. Yes I have said Id never post again here again before but this time its for real.

feardeas

Not against the union just the strategy being pursued. However as I'm no longer a member I feel I shouldn't say any more because I don't want to be seen as smug.

I did attend meetings and got a fairly hostile reception for my pov. Also emailed head office and rang once or twice. Email rarely got a response.

Mr white is correct about the forum. People have their views, I won't change mine, nor will anybody else I suspect.

Decisions have been made, it will all play out and it, like everything, will pass.

2011abc

For the week that's in it :

Mr White not to post again on this thread 10/1
Fear deas not to post again on this thread 5/1
Acequon and Mr White to share at least two courses at 'a nice little Italian restaurant on Dame Street ' 5/4
Feardeas to join them 7/2

km79

2011abc wrote: »

For the week that's in it :

Mr White not to post again on this thread 10/1
Fear deas not to post again on this thread 5/1
Acequon and Mr White to share at least two courses at 'a nice little Italian restaurant on Dame Street ' 5/4
Feardeas to join them 7/2

Reballot announced after CEC meeting 1/100

deiseindublin

I was reading those as dates and couldn't figure out the April fixture!

acequion

2011abc wrote: »

For the week that's in it :

Mr White not to post again on this thread 10/1
Fear deas not to post again on this thread 5/1
Acequon and Mr White to share at least two courses at 'a nice little Italian restaurant on Dame Street ' 5/4
Feardeas to join them 7/2

Lol, :D:D: Fair play to you for givin us all a laugh. :pac: hey feardeas you'd be welcome!

Inspector Coptoor

I'm a school Steward
I go to branch meetings
Have been nominated to CEC
Will be at convention this year for the first time.

There is huge apathy amongst the vast vast majority of ASTi members.
I find it very sad and disheartening

evolving_doors

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm a school Steward
I go to branch meetings
Have been nominated to CEC
Will be at convention this year for the first time.

There is huge apathy amongst the vast vast majority of ASTi members.
I find it very sad and disheartening

I dunno IC, I wouldn't run down the members and apportion it to apathy.In comparrison to other teaching unions, they've voted against the position of the DES on numerous occasions at financial cost to themselves and their careers + not to mention putting up with the schism that has been foisted upon ASTI/ ASTI+TUI staffrooms (and there's the minor matter of being opposed to new curriculum but at the same time having to teach it based on interpretation).

I think it would be right to say that ASTI members have not been found wanting as regards sticking to their principles in comparison with other teaching unions. About 40% of my colleagues have been against the ASTI position from the get-go (i.e. 2000 on) but they've always respected the notion of solidarity with the wishes of the majority and have always joined a picket no matter how opposed to it!.

But there's a limit.

judeboy101

gaiscioch wrote: »

I agree, although if the DOE had an Arlene Foster sort in their corner it would fire up membership hugely. I propose the Department of Education appoint His Royal Smugness Ed Walsh (who must be struggling on his €300k golden handshake and pension of well over €100k per annum) as special rapporteur to the ASTI.

IF there is a leadership election, and IF in the reshuffle we get someone ruairi Quinn-like. We need a hate figure.

gaiscioch

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

There is huge apathy amongst the vast vast majority of ASTi members.

I agree but it's definitely not a permanent thing - at least we are voting to make a stand. Also, many of us are just busy so haven't got the energy to be active. There's ineffable honour right there in making that stand each time we are asked to vote. Nevertheless, if the DOE had an Arlene Foster sort in their corner it would fire up membership hugely. I propose the Department of Education appoint His Royal Smugness Ed Walsh (who must be struggling on his €300k golden handshake and pension of well over €100k per annum) as special rapporteur to the ASTI.

gaiscioch

judeboy101 wrote: »

IF there is a leadership election, and IF in the reshuffle we get someone ruairi Quinn-like. We need a hate figure.

They don't come more 'hate-figure'-like than Edward. He'd make a superb Minister for Education (he doesn't need to be a TD to be a minister; he could be appointed to the Seanad and then be appointed Minister, as happened with Jim Dooge in the 1980s). And he'd get an amazing pension top-up into the bargain while telling teachers on €27k that... they're paid too much.

...

2011abc

I think I mentioned it before but it's worth restating that over many a decade Martin McGuinness seems to have been the only Minister for Education in either Ireland or Britain to have had the slightest respect for and from teachers .Gove and Bruton must be the worst , now if only we could run OUR fella out of town and the TC with him .

SligoBrewer

We've got a pretty good hate figure as it is, and still teachers are jumping ship to take his €1,000.

aerobie

An awful lot of comments on VFT about people jumping ship because of CIDs. The recent one about the TUI advising how to join from being an ASTI member is absolutely appalling.

Why are the TUI condoning this picket passing? Just because it benefits them financially?
What type of union workers are in the TUI?
Why are the ASTI head office not doing anything about this?
Do posts like that need to be reported to ICTU?

km79

Wow who could have seen this coming.........http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-may-opt-to-reballot-at-central-executive-meeting-1.3016547

Bean Scoile

km79 wrote: »

Wow who could have seen this coming.........http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-may-opt-to-reballot-at-central-executive-meeting-1.3016547

A quick look at the voice for teachers page would have me voting yes. The idea of losing pay for people who will leave the union for a cid doesn't appeal to me. I know it's not all lpt's, but it seems to be a lot of them.

evolving_doors

Bean Scoile wrote: »

A quick look at the voice for teachers page would have me voting yes. The idea of losing pay for people who will leave the union for a cid doesn't appeal to me. I know it's not all lpt's, but it seems to be a lot of them.

I note they (Irish Times/Dept of Ed whateverrrr) are now calling CID's 'Permanent Contracts'. It's subtle, but watch this space and see if it crops up elsewhere in the media... i.e. the promotion of the term "teachers on permanent contracts" being used instead of the proper term- CID.

A few questions (as the IT maintain CID is the same as Permanency)

Does a CID protect a teacher from redundancy. Would a teacher on a CID have access to the redeployment panel if the school is over-quota?

I'm thinking of a scenario where, lets say, a teacher who teaches a minority option subject and numbers drop. If it were a CID teacher, could the school just kill off the subject and hand the p45 to the teacher, here the 'objective grounds' of the school can be justified.

(2) If treating a fixed-term employee, in respect of a particular condition of employment, in a less favourable manner than a comparable permanent employee can be justified on objective grounds then that employee may, notwithstanding subsection (1), be so treated.
HERE

.

Whereas a teacher who is permanent gets to go on to the redeployment panel.

It's probably a rare thing. But it would be important for Teachers to know this... especially if CID's are going to replace proper permanency.

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I note they (Irish Times/Dept of Ed whateverrrr) are now calling CID's 'Permanent Contracts'. It's subtle, but watch this space and see if it crops up elsewhere in the media... i.e. the promotion of the term "teachers on permanent contracts" being used instead of the proper term- CID.

A few questions (as the IT maintain CID is the same as Permanency)

Does a CID protect a teacher from redundancy. Would a teacher on a CID have access to the redeployment panel if the school is over-quota?

I'm thinking of a scenario where, lets say, a teacher who teaches a minority option subject and numbers drop. If it were a CID teacher, could the school just kill off the subject and hand the p45 to the teacher, here the 'objective grounds' of the school can be justified.

.

Whereas a teacher who is permanent gets to go on to the redeployment panel.

It's probably a rare thing. But it would be important for Teachers to know this... especially if CID's are going to replace proper permanency.

Ward report refers. CID same as permanent.

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Implementation-of-the-Recommendations-of-the-Expert-Group-on-Fixed-Term-and-Part-Time-Employment-in-Primary-and-Second-Level-Education-in-Ireland-Primary-.pdf

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I note they (Irish Times/Dept of Ed whateverrrr) are now calling CID's 'Permanent Contracts'. It's subtle, but watch this space and see if it crops up elsewhere in the media... i.e. the promotion of the term "teachers on permanent contracts" being used instead of the proper term- CID.

A few questions (as the IT maintain CID is the same as Permanency)

Does a CID protect a teacher from redundancy. Would a teacher on a CID have access to the redeployment panel if the school is over-quota?

I'm thinking of a scenario where, lets say, a teacher who teaches a minority option subject and numbers drop. If it were a CID teacher, could the school just kill off the subject and hand the p45 to the teacher, here the 'objective grounds' of the school can be justified.

.

Whereas a teacher who is permanent gets to go on to the redeployment panel.

It's probably a rare thing. But it would be important for Teachers to know this... especially if CID's are going to replace proper permanency.

CID is not equal to permanent. in the hypothetical situation when two teachers who qualify the same year but one is made permanent and one is CID, same subjects etc are the next in line for the chop, cid will be let go first. i have that from both the jmb and the dept as i posed this scenario at a recent conference on allocations. It was like getting blood out of a stone for them to admit it but they said that under those extreme circumstances, PWT beats CID

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

CID is not equal to permanent. in the hypothetical situation when two teachers who qualify the same year but one is made permanent and one is CID, same subjects etc are the next in line for the chop, cid will be let go first. i have that from both the jmb and the dept as i posed this scenario at a recent conference on allocations. It was like getting blood out of a stone for them to admit it but they said that under those extreme circumstances, PWT beats CID

I agree.
If they say they're the 'same' then why not just cut out the term CID and give someone a proper permanent contract?

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I agree.
If they say they're the 'same' then why not just cut out the term CID and give someone a proper permanent contract?

The term "same employment status" gives a lot of wiggle room to the dept when they say cid=pwt. I really really do not want to vote again on the same issues and we know a split ballot wont be accepted by Marlborough st

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

CID is not equal to permanent. in the hypothetical situation when two teachers who qualify the same year but one is made permanent and one is CID, same subjects etc are the next in line for the chop, cid will be let go first. i have that from both the jmb and the dept as i posed this scenario at a recent conference on allocations. It was like getting blood out of a stone for them to admit it but they said that under those extreme circumstances, PWT beats CID

Is anyone being made permanent anymore though or is it all CID? For all intents and purposes a CID is equivalent to a Permanent contract. Aside from the scenario with redeployment above, its clear to see why a teacher would want their 2 year CID.

In 5 or 6 years time we will be looking at a lot of redeployment i think because of all the CIDs being given out on the back of career breaks etc. Next big question is who gets redeployed in that situation? There was talk that it would be the returning teacher for now its the replacement.

MrJones1973

Ok Im back.

This is what I have heard from reliable sources

ASTI is losing hundreds members as reported in media thus the likey decision to re ballot

The Department is planning to allow individual teachers to opt in to LRA-this the old system will be buried where it didnt matter whether you were in or out of the union-once you were in a voluntary secondary you got lumped in with ASTI decision
Now What I think about this is as follows
If the Department did that-we would lose at least 10-20% of members.
The ASTI disciplinary procedures are a joke. Directives broken everywhere-no blow back.
Rules need to be changed-if you leave ASTI during a dispute your period outside should be at least 3 years
I was able to rejoin after 3 months
I will vote No again but its not looking good.
Where Is ICTU on all this a the Departments move has consequences for all the public sector?

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Ok Im back.

This is what I have heard from reliable sources

ASTI is losing hundreds members as reported in media thus the likey decision to re ballot

The Department is planning to allow individual teachers to opt in to LRA-this the old system will be buried where it didnt matter whether you were in or out of the union-once you were in a voluntary secondary you got lumped in with ASTI decision
Now What I think about this is as follows
If the Department did that-we would lose at least 10-20% of members.
The ASTI disciplinary procedures are a joke. Directives broken everywhere-no blow back.
Rules need to be changed-if you leave ASTI during a dispute your period outside should be at least 3 years
I was able to rejoin after 3 months
I will vote No again but its not looking good.
Where Is ICTU on all this a the Departments move has consequences for all the public sector?

They are losing members because they have done absolutely NOTHING since the ballot result
They waited for the decision to be made for them
They now have their excuse