Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

MrJones1973

Yeah I have sympathy for your View Km. I would have called an immediate 7 day strikes over Pay quality. a day a week. At the very least.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Yeah I have sympathy for your View Km. I would have called an immediate 7 day strikes over Pay quality. a day a week. At the very least.

To borrow a phrase "This is the way the union ends, not with a bang, but with a whimper"

MrJones1973

The union wont end. Its a brake on change -a very effective brake. Look at original proposals for Jc. Where it has failed-leadership and members is to take a prolonged strike to roll back some of the worst elements of this change.

But without it -we would be like the UK totally.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The union wont end. Its a brake on change -a very effective brake. Look at original proposals for Jc. Where it has failed-leadership and members is to take a prolonged strike to roll back some of the worst elements of this change.

But without it -we would be like the UK totally.

just because you pull the break, doesn't mean you survive the crash:o

acequion

If there's a reballot I'm gone from ASTI.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

If there's a reballot I'm gone from ASTI.

There is room for a 3rd union at 2nd level ��

mtoutlemonde

acequion wrote: »

If there's a reballot I'm gone from ASTI.

Hold the door - I'll be with you Absolute disgrace of a union if that happens. I did say that TUI gave in too fast so why bother saying No twice and now maybe a third time to get the same result?

SligoBrewer

Same **** as the TUI; bowing to the pressure of membership fees over ideals.

paddybarry

acequion wrote: »

If there's a reballot I'm gone from ASTI.

Me too.

acequion

Well I will do my absolute damndest to try to stop it! Including a very strongly worded mail to our GS. I have staunchly defended the union and its leadership in recent times but a reballot!!! Just because there are a few with cold feet or cold pockets and who can't accept the democractic result of our last ballot!! That really would be too much for me and I'd leave in a shot.

My apologies to Icsics who first posted this as a rumour and to whom I gave a very sarcastic response.

There is clearly no smoke without fire and I'm going to find out more, but I'm clinging to the hope that this is the actions of a minority who are pro LRA and that common sense will prevail with the majority.

If not, we'll be a laughing stock and I'm not going to be part of that!

Icsics

acequion wrote: »

Well I will do my absolute damndest to try to stop it! Including a very strongly worded mail to our GS. I have staunchly defended the union and its leadership in recent times but a reballot!!! Just because there are a few with cold feet or cold pockets and who can't accept the democractic result of our last ballot!! That really would be too much for me and I'd leave in a shot.

My apologies to Icsics who first posted this as a rumour and to whom I gave a very sarcastic response.

There is clearly no smoke without fire and I'm going to find out more, but I'm clinging to the hope that this is the actions of a minority who are pro LRA and that common sense will prevail with the majority.

If not, we'll be a laughing stock and I'm not going to be part of that!

Wish it was a rumour! I heard about it weeks ago at branch meeting, our neighbouring branch collected the signatures & forced the CEC. Hopefully there'll be enough strong voices to reject the reballot but they might also decide to seperate the ballots & then God knows what'll happen!

acequion

Icsics wrote: »

Wish it was a rumour! I heard about it weeks ago at branch meeting, our neighbouring branch collected the signatures & forced the CEC. Hopefully there'll be enough strong voices to reject the reballot but they might also decide to seperate the ballots & then God knows what'll happen!

They have absolutely no right or reason to collect signatures.A democratic ballot was held in which the members had their say. End of story. I would have been gutted if the yes side won but I would have accepted and respected it.That anybody would even listen to these people with their signatures beggars belief! That it might even go to a ballot on CEC really is something that would only happen in Ireland. Now is the time for leaders to be leaders! They surely have the power to stop this farce.

Icsics

acequion wrote: »

They have absolutely no right or reason to collect signatures.A democratic ballot was held in which the members had their say. End of story. I would have been gutted if the yes side won but I would have accepted and respected it.That anybody would even listen to these people with their signatures beggars belief! That it might even go to a ballot on CEC really is something that would only happen in Ireland. Now is the time for leaders to be leaders! They surely have the power to stop this farce.

Totally agree & you can be sure there'd be no talk of reballoting if it had been a 'no' vote

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Well I will do my absolute damndest to try to stop it! Including a very strongly worded mail to our GS. I have staunchly defended the union and its leadership in recent times but a reballot!!! Just because there are a few with cold feet or cold pockets and who can't accept the democractic result of our last ballot!! That really would be too much for me and I'd leave in a shot.

My apologies to Icsics who first posted this as a rumour and to whom I gave a very sarcastic response.

There is clearly no smoke without fire and I'm going to find out more, but I'm clinging to the hope that this is the actions of a minority who are pro LRA and that common sense will prevail with the majority.

If not, we'll be a laughing stock and I'm not going to be part of that!

I've contacted everyone I know on the cec and pleaded with them to try to hold out til Sept, they 100% will not sack a teacher. Lra 2.0 might give us a ballot but at least its not a reballot.

MrJones1973

Look. Take a breath folks. The case for a reballot will be put to CEC . The alternatives will be put to CEC. members.
I prefer a 7 day strike plan. No reballot.
The JC ballot will be separate at least
I left and came back. I would not suggest going for long. Think what would happen if we had a major exodus ?
I have heard they lost a couple of hundred and if the government allowed individual teachers to sign up to LR they would probably lose a couple of thousand members

amacca

What happens if its 52% in favour next time? any chance of them reballoting that?....you know cause it would be a close run thing like:D

coillsaille

When posters in this thread were casting aspersions on the leadership, saying they ran scared in the face of DES intransigence, they jumped into talks to escape, they spent weeks talking about nothing, they came out with no deal but made us vote cos they wanted the dispute to end, etc. I was very sceptical and felt these posters were being quite unfair on the leadership.

If we are reballoted I will regret my scepticism, acknowledge these posters were right all along and give serious consideration to resigning from the union.

MrJones1973

The leadership won't decide. SC/CEC will.
I have seen no plans from posters here how they would deal with department plans to allow individual teachers to opt into LR. The disciplinary issues that would arise from such a move for Asti and the possible exodus of thousands of members ?

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The leadership won't decide. SC/CEC will

The membership

MrJones1973

Im still waiting for a rational response. Do we eject people who sign up to LRA ? A real split. We end up with a smaller union. If the JC ballot is separate it provides an out let for those oppossed to that aspect but if we fight on with LRA what's the plan?

I personally want to fight on but not terribly impressed by the lack of plans above ? Would a smaller Asti be more effective on pay equality?
I wonder how many of these lower paid teachers voted yes last time. They really should have been asked separately.Then before we go over the trenches for them,we would know if they are behind us or shooting at us.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im still waiting for a rational response. Do we eject people who sign up to LRA ? A real split. We end up with a smaller union. If the JC ballot is separate it provides an out let for those oppossed to that aspect but if we fight on with LRA what's the plan?

I personally want to fight on but not terribly impressed by the lack of plans above ? Would a smaller Asti be more effective on pay equality?
I wonder how many of these lower paid teachers voted yes last time. They really should have been asked separately.Then before we go over the trenches for them,we would know if they are behind us or shooting at us.

I'd happily see 3000 lpt/nqt who can't stick the heat jump ship to tui. A smaller core of 14k will be a tougher nut to crack. I would also black ball them for life and actively undercut tui recruitment by offering €1 a month sub's to any tui wanting to switch. Screw the tui and ictu and their "understanding". Splitting the ballot means nothing when the gov have said its all in or not at all. Why enter LRA now when everyone else about to renegotiate it. The gov haven't the balks to sack a teacher , they know it and so do we

Frankly frank

All of this finger pointing etc irrelevant.
Until members of both unions push to form 1 union we're all wasting our time, energy and money.
Both are a joke, members don't take them seriously, so why would anyone else?
Better off if 1 gets weaker and gets subsumed, then you have 1 union for the sector to fight.
Not interested in the actual politics of merger which is only naval gazing. JFDI !

mirrorwall14

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'd happily see 3000 lpt/nqt who can't stick the heat jump ship to tui. A smaller core of 14k will be a tougher nut to crack. I would also black ball them for life and actively undercut tui recruitment by offering €1 a month sub's to any tui wanting to switch. Screw the tui and ictu and their "understanding". Splitting the ballot means nothing when the gov have said its all in or not at all. Why enter LRA now when everyone else about to renegotiate it. The gov haven't the balks to sack a teacher , they know it and so do we

My TUI branch are actively rejecting ex ASTI members where it has been declared/knowledge is in the branch that they are ASTI. I imagine we are not the only branch doing that.

They may have signed up online but they aren't a member until they have been ratified by a branch

judeboy101

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

My TUI branch are actively rejecting ex ASTI members where it has been declared/knowledge is in the branch that they are ASTI. I imagine we are not the only branch doing that.

They may have signed up online but they aren't a member until they have been ratified by a branch

Unless tui are putting a clause in their membership stating you cannot claim tui status if you were a member of Asti during a dispute, then with all due respect, the TUI's word on the issue is meaningless

coillsaille

I see there is a motion coming up at convention that the ASTI talk to TUI about a merger.

I wonder if you added together the 50% (allowing for a decrease since the ballot) of ASTI members who voted to fight on with the ?% of TUI members not satisfied with how their union has accepted everything, would the numbers be enough for a new union? Hypothetically speaking.

mirrorwall14

judeboy101 wrote: »

Unless tui are putting a clause in their membership stating you cannot claim tui status if you were a member of Asti during a dispute, then with all due respect, the TUI's word on the issue is meaningless

That clause is unnecessary as both unions are currently in ICTU and thus membership transfers are only permitted if:
a) The teacher has moved from an ASTI/Dual school to a TUI only school
b) They stopped being a member of the ASTI before July 2016 i.e. before the current dispute.

If ASTI withdraw from ICTU then all bets are off and then you would need a TUI/ASTI specific clause

And with all due respect we literally only just turned down a member at our branch meeting so I'm not sure what you mean by the TUIs word being meaningless in this matter. If branches have accepted a member unwittingly or otherwise please feel free to inform Head Office of TUI so the situation can be rectified.

Note: I voted against all agreements but I am a TUI member so I am bound by our majority

MrJones1973

At this stage I'm tired of it all. I will vote no again. I just have too much personally going on to actively campaign. I would advise all no voters to actively campaign. Posting here unlikely to change many views but I could be wrong. Write letters to newspapers. Contact all teachers you know. Write to them personally. It's vote by vote. Don't just be a keyboard warrior
I have done my bit in past .

judeboy101

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

That clause is unnecessary as both unions are currently in ICTU and thus membership transfers are only permitted if:
a) The teacher has moved from an ASTI/Dual school to a TUI only school
b) They stopped being a member of the ASTI before July 2016 i.e. before the current dispute.

If ASTI withdraw from ICTU then all bets are off and then you would need a TUI/ASTI specific clause

And with all due respect we literally only just turned down a member at our branch meeting so I'm not sure what you mean by the TUIs word being meaningless in this matter. If branches have accepted a member unwittingly or otherwise please feel free to inform Head Office of TUI so the situation can be rectified.

Note: I voted against all agreements but I am a TUI member so I am bound by our majority

not a personal attack, but we have boarders here who have been accepted by tui branch after declaring defection from asti.

mirrorwall14

judeboy101 wrote: »

not a personal attack, but we have boarders here who have been accepted by tui branch after declaring defection from asti.

They should be reported. And the branch. I say that as a union member, regardless of which union. That should not arise full stop.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

not a personal attack, but we have boarders here who have been accepted by tui branch after declaring defection from asti.

Was their defection declared at the ratification meeting though? I think it would appear that the rep ratified them whilst knowingly concealing their defection (if I remember the posts correctly).