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Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

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    #1682
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    In relation to your comment on gaining better concessions for LR2.. how can the ASTI gain anything while they're outside the door.
    I'm presuming LR2 negotiations will only be open to those already in LR1. Am I wrong?


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    #1683
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭acequion


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    In relation to your comment on gaining better concessions for LR2.. how can the ASTI gain anything while they're outside the door.
    I'm presuming LR2 negotiations will only be open to those already in LR1. Am I wrong?

    Well it seems you can join LR1 at any time. That's in the LR document. So there is nothing that says a union has to have done LR1 to do LR2. However you're not wrong either as we could well be blocked. But I would imagine if we want to get in we'll get in. Not to the pre-negotiations but I wouldn't worry about them as TUI can negotiate on behalf of second level teachers. However I have always maintained that there's not much bargaining power given to unions within the straitjackets of those agreements.


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    #1684
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Ok. Where do we go now? Whats the plan? Whats our bottom line? What would we accept?

    Just as important-whats the Gov plan?


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    #1685
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Ok. Where do we go now? Whats the plan? Whats our bottom line? What would we accept?

    Just as important-whats the Gov plan?

    Our plan should become clearer after convention and after/if the government make any of our colleagues redundant.

    The situation is evolving and changing all the time


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    #1686
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    Our plan should become clearer after convention and after/if the government make any of our colleagues redundant.

    The situation is evolving and changing all the time

    Once there's not a mismatch between the views of those who attend convention and the grassroots.

    Re the earlier discussion about splitting JC from pay issues, to be fair to him, Philip Irwin was trying to do that before the LRA ballot came on stream so that it wouldn't be tied to pay talks. Now the DESwant it all in one. The two unions established that it was not within the scope of the HRA and were able to strike on the strength of that to get talks and concessions.

    I think cooperation with curricular reform s in LRA.


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    #1687
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    TBH while I agree LR should be separated from the JC-I cant see this being maintained. Workforce change tends to be part of deals


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    #1688
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    TBH while I agree LR should be separated from the JC-I cant see this being maintained. Workforce change tends to be part of deals

    Out of curiousity, if we were balloted now one on the JC reform and one on negotiating into LRA/LRA2, do you think both would still be a no?


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    #1689
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    If we were balloted this week LR would pass. Why? No clear plan outlined by Headquarters and a few hundred would give in. JC reform would be rejected. That being said-one could assume exodus last few months has been mainly Yes voters. 450 have left but influx last year too!


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    #1690
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    If we were balloted this week LR would pass. Why? No clear plan outlined by Headquarters and a few hundred would give in. JC reform would be rejected. That being said-one could assume exodus last few months has been mainly Yes voters. 450 have left but influx last year too!

    I agree on your assessment of it... Randomly I was on to payroll for something during the week and they were double checking was I in a union and if yes, which one (had been in TUI previously due to the school I was in but ASTI with years now) and they said there has been a lot of movement all ways union wise so had to double check a lot of members.


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    #1691
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    The union either arranges strikes for September (assuming no redundancies) or we settle. Pure and simple. I would prefer action now...


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    #1692
    Liberal_irony
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭Liberal_irony


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/if-you-pay-peanuts-you-get-monkeys-the-public-have-their-say-on-tds-2700-pay-rise-35592605.html
    So their pay can be restored but no pay parity for NQTs?


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    #1693
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    The most you can ever hope for now is the principle of pay equality will be accepted.
    I despair at lack of any plan from HQ.
    If we drift-this is what will happen. Government will throw us a minor bone and a ballot will pass.


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    #1694
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    The most you can ever hope for now is the principle of pay equality will be accepted.
    I despair at lack of any plan from HQ.
    If we drift-this is what will happen. Government will throw us a minor bone and a ballot will pass.

    That wont happen until/if Bruton goes. He has said no more deal, he'd look week if he conceded anything else. And any1who thinks he conceded on CBA is delusional.


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    #1695
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    The union either arranges strikes for September (assuming no redundancies) or we settle. Pure and simple. I would prefer action now...

    The circle to be squared hinges on the Junior Cert and how it's being tied in with the ASTI demands for pay restoration/parity.

    As far as I can see, the new Junior cert is still going to bebeing rolled out, taught and examined on. Come to think of it, once English gets examined in June then that's that (whether in-services have taken place or not). All the other subjects curriculum changes are going ahead regardless. Teachers can 'unpack' them whatever way they like... as the people giving the in-services certainly don't seem to know what's going on going by comments from attendees here.


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    #1696
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    The more I teach the Junior Cycle the worse I think it is; and I was all for it initially.


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    #1697
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭acequion


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    That wont happen until/if Bruton goes. He has said no more deal, he'd look week if he conceded anything else. And any1who thinks he conceded on CBA is delusional.

    I do think there was a concession on CBAs, though I didn't initially.

    Remember we were meant to be doing all sorts with CBA's; an oral task, collection of texts marked with fancy "descriptors",no such thing as an aul A,B or C and then all of us around a table comparing grades at a SLAR.

    Well that just did not happen, whatever work conscientious teachers may have prepared in advance. And I do find a lot of merit in having students writing up texts,as they would essays, but with a new element of redrafting,which is very good. As long as it stays within the remit of the trustworthy teacher,as it always has.

    Will this year create a precedent? Time will tell. Not a hope if we'd caved in the other day and were having a reballot and not a hope if we don't stick to our guns. But a very good hope for the other subjects coming on stream if we do. We've all seen new courses come in and get very much watered down along the way. I think this could happen with this new JC,making it more manageable for us and much more beneficial for our students going forward.Maybe I'm being over optimistic but I really do feel that the longer we can hold out the better.
    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    The most you can ever hope for now is the principle of pay equality will be accepted.
    I despair at lack of any plan from HQ.
    If we drift-this is what will happen. Government will throw us a minor bone and a ballot will pass.

    Mrwhite,given your past involvement with CEC etc,you should know that it's just not that simple. It's not like we're only fighting one campaign. If we were,then fine. Off we could go on strike for as long as it took, like the bus drivers and god knows,I'm not trivialising their struggle because my heart goes out to them.

    But regarding a plan, the most urgent at the moment,I think, is to get people out of S&S.

    Other than that, as another poster said, it's a constantly evolving situation. I would call it a chess game. The solution won't be as simple as a plan or a strike, I'm afraid.


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    #1698
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Drift is dangerous. I stand over that.:)


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    #1699
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    SligoBrewer wrote: »
    The more I teach the Junior Cycle the worse I think it is; and I was all for it initially.

    Can you elaborate?

    I think the English course is essentially well English. Plays,Letters,Short stories etc. I like the Oral test.

    What I dislike is this inane obsession with learning objectives
    I dislike the way a five hour exam becomes two. That its random what comes up. That you could study a play for months without being tested on it.

    That somehow skills will see you through which is pure nonsense

    But I wouldnt disregard the lot. Im only talking about English.


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    #1700
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭acequion


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Drift is dangerous. I stand over that.:)

    Not disagreeing because you're right,drift is dangerous. And you're right too that we messed up when we had momentum last November.

    But time has moved on and we' are where we are. And it's more complicated now, I think.

    The last CEC was a big battle to keep the campaigns on the road, but I think convention will focus minds on where to next.


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    #1701
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    There's truth in what you say.
    There's under 10 people in line to be made redundant according to a report yesterday.
    However, if even one member is made redundant, we have to down tools.
    Simple as that.

    Do you think it fair that LPT's should down tools for the 10 people?


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    #1702
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    keoclassic wrote: »
    Do you think it fair that LPT's should down tools for the 10 people?

    Good chance their will be at least one LPT amongst the 10.................Not that it should matter whether any of the teachers being fired are LPtS or not!


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    #1703
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    keoclassic wrote: »
    Do you think it fair that LPT's should down tools for the 10 people?

    Think its fair that the vast majority of teachers are taking a hit for a minority who are LPT? Of course it is!! That's what a UNION actually stands for :-)


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    #1704
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    km79 wrote: »
    Good chance their will be at least one LPT amongst the 10.................Not that it should matter whether any of the teachers being fired are LPtS or not!

    But they are not getting Fired! I presume that their schools are over subscribed therefore they are being made redundant! Its a shame but thats life, No work, No job. Ive heard it many times in my career as a teacher, (hours reduced to unsustainable levels etc). Personally I disagree and would not go out on solidarity on this issue,I think it is a slap in the face to the LPT's to ask them to go on strike for someones job, when they themselves are on the back-foot as it is . Just my opinion.


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    #1705
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    keoclassic wrote: »
    But they are not getting Fired! I presume that their schools are over subscribed therefore they are being made redundant! Its a shame but thats life, No work, No job. Ive heard it many times in my career as a teacher, (hours reduced to unsustainable levels etc). Personally I disagree and would not go out on solidarity on this issue,I think it is a slap in the face to the LPT's to ask them to go on strike for someones job, when they themselves are on the back-foot as it is . Just my opinion.

    Factory decides to downsize, owner goes to two lads. One is black one is white. Owner tells white lad "you are been transferred to my other factory because you are white" he tells the black lad "you have no job anymore because even though you have been here longer than the other chap, you are black". Now replace black/white with asti/tui


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    #1706
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    Good Point, well said. Same could be said of s and s I suppose, but it seems divide and conquer is working. May I state that none of the decisions apply to me anymore as i have left teaching, but from what i have read, you guys in the asti seem to be on the back foot also. I still think it unfair all the same but anyways, best of luck to the asti members, I hope they stand fast!


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    #1707
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Factory decides to downsize, owner goes to two lads. One is black one is white. Owner tells white lad "you are been transferred to my other factory because you are white" he tells the black lad "you have no job anymore because even though you have been here longer than the other chap, you are black". Now replace black/white with asti/tui

    However, the black guy has told his boss he won't cooperate with some of the new work practices being phased in, so his employer chooses the white guy who has signed up to them.


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    #1708
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    However, the black guy has told his boss he won't cooperate with some of the new work practices being phased in, so his employer chooses the white guy who has signed up to them.

    But what about Hispanic guy, who isn't white but isn't black. Owner looks at him and says "hmmm you work the new work practices like the white man but in a black school, so ill treat you like the black man because you refuse to identify as white" ?


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    #1709
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    I'd say all over quota teachers Hispanic or mixed race left mother union a long time ago. I would have. So would you


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    #1710
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    The faux-outrage from INTO and TUI conferences about equal pay is laughable. You'd swear they didn't have an opportunity in the last year to do something about it!!


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    #1711
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    The faux-outrage from INTO and TUI conferences about equal pay is laughable. You'd swear they didn't have an opportunity in the last year to do something about it!!

    Well, it has to be asked-what has the ASTI achieved ?


This discussion has been closed.
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