Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Extra curricular wasn't mentioned at all but I see where you're coming from. The Batt O Keefe hours which every school has at their disposal were spoken about and could be used here.

So is the money given to the school in lieu of opt outs. I wrote to our bom reminding them that I haven't taken a sick day in 5 years and would hope that the money I "give" to the school would be used to support EC. Principal was none too happy.

TheDriver

judeboy101 wrote: »

So is the money given to the school in lieu of opt outs. I wrote to our bom reminding them that I haven't taken a sick day in 5 years and would hope that the money I "give" to the school would be used to support EC. Principal was none too happy.

There are 2 seperate budgets: the Batt hours which are primarily for school business and the opt outs which are to be used similar to the S&S scheme as its the same money in theory.

I really don't get why you wrote to the BOM to remind them about your sick leave? Well done on not being sick in 5 years.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

So is the money given to the school in lieu of opt outs. I wrote to our bom reminding them that I haven't taken a sick day in 5 years and would hope that the money I "give" to the school would be used to support EC. Principal was none too happy.

You give them nothing.

The DES covers certified leave from their budget.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

You give them nothing.

The DES covers certified leave from their budget.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Des don't cover self certified, do they?

judeboy101

TheDriver wrote: »

There are 2 seperate budgets: the Batt hours which are primarily for school business and the opt outs which are to be used similar to the S&S scheme as its the same money in theory.

I really don't get why you wrote to the BOM to remind them about your sick leave? Well done on not being sick in 5 years.

Principal wouldn't release any teacher to bring kids to btyse so I made a point to remind board that MY money which the school uses could be used for this, I was proudly passive agressive in my tone :-)

Redser87

Pardon my ignorance but Google is not providing the answer, what are Batt O'Keeffe hours?

evolving_doors

BoatMad wrote: »

right then, Ted, its just all down to Grudges , I see.

Well you have to realise that teacher's unions and the department are on opposing sides on many occasions. It's nothing to do with grudges.
e.g. Dept refuses a teacher a contract (not because of a grudge but because it might set a precedent or cost them a lot of money)- Union takes a case and either wins or looses on the basis of what a judge deems to be fair.

BoatMad wrote: »

funny most of the rhetoric is about pay and conditions.

If the pay and conditions are felt to be unfavourable then do you think it wil or will not have an affect on the education students receive?

BoatMad wrote: »

well only the school going sections:D

Exactly and you've hit the nail on the head.
Parents don't care till their kid reaches school. But years rumble on and they come and go like a blade of grass on a river . But meanwhile teachers are looking at the same stretch of river watching it become polluted.

Hence why the Minister de jour yabbers on about 'school uniforms and the cost of school books' every single year around may/august (he's early this year but needs to have something to muddy the waters a bit whilst on the Radio/tv). He's appealing to that cohort of parents of that 'school going public' who aren't aware of the issues and think... and appealing to those who have gone to school and forgotten what exactly the issue was....ya he's a great minister doing something about the cost... But every year none of those parents who have left the system (or have yet to enter) question why nothing changes?

BoatMad wrote: »

Hiding this dispute in the cloak of " educational righteousness " is in my view entirely duplicitous. There may be " differing opinions " of various educational aspects of this ,but thats not the core issue

Well the question still remains.

If the pay and conditions are felt to be unfavourable then, do you think it will or will not have an affect on the education students receive?

BoatMad wrote: »

Of course disrupting schools and exams , is not of course " an educational issue "

Well then what outcome are you offering. Would you have been against the concessions that the TUI received to enter LR, actually, would you have been against any restoration of pay?

MrJones1973

I'm parking my views on this. Psychologically. Unless I get back onto CEC I'm leaving it in the hands of the leadership.
Lead follow or get the fxxx out of the way

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I'm parking my views on this. Psychologically. Unless I get back onto CEC I'm leaving it in the hands of the leadership.
Lead follow or get the fxxx out of the way

Ah Mrwhite, how many times now have you been in park n drive mode? :pac:

So keep on driving and I think it would be brilliant to have you back on CEC!

MrJones1973

Mr white gets out of car and walks into the shadows not to be seen again until he sits on the right hand of Aquieon on the CEC

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Mr white gets out of car and walks into the shadows not to be seen again until he sits on the right hand of Aquieon on the CEC

Lol :pac:

But that's on CEC. Mr white and hopefully acequion, also do a job here. We gotta use social media in getting people properly informed. Would you really trust mainstream media??

Inspector Coptoor

Convention was a tough theee days.
Lots of passionate and principled people discussing the various topics.

Unfortunately, given that there were such divergent opinions, reaching full agreement on anything contentious was impossible.
At times it felt like trying to herd cats.

It was my first convention but I have been to similar gatherings in different organisations previously so I knew what to expect.

I spoke a couple of times but not on anything contentious.

I am happy there is a plan of sorts in place for September.
I feel striking in May would have been counter productive but I am willing to go on all out strike in September as juxtaposed as that sounds.

CEC on May 6th should be interesting

acequion

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Convention was a tough theee days.
Lots of passionate and principled people discussing the various topics.

Unfortunately, given that there were such divergent opinions, reaching full agreement on anything contentious was impossible.
At times it felt like trying to herd cats.

It was my first convention but I have been to similar gatherings in different organisations previously so I knew what to expect.

I spoke a couple of times but not on anything contentious.

I am happy there is a plan of sorts in place for September.
I feel striking in May would have been counter productive but I am willing to go on all out strike in September as juxtaposed as that sounds.

CEC on May 6th should be interesting

Fair play Inspector,we probably bumped into each other up at the podium.:)

I both spoke on and supported a strike in May. I just felt that a strike to correspond with the first day of pay talks would really send out a clear message and might just rally the troops and get them back onside. We need only read this thread to see that so many members have lapsed back into apathy and I felt that they needed to be shaken out of that before the summer.

I mean no disrespect guys but I do feel it's time to get back into the saddle! However strike in May got voted down and I respect that.

I just hope that if we need to strike in September the appetite will still be there.

MrJones1973

I was asked a question so I will answer it. Social media is important so is mainstream media. I don't trust the Irish times educational editor.The ind not much either

But I still think it's worth submitting articles to both newspapers to counter propaganda. Make contact with both editors personally and respectfully. Put forward your ideas. It can be a long process but worth it in the end. I did succeed a few times .

Chancer3001

Do we have to ballot AGAIN to go on strike in september

Mekekka

Like Inspector Coptoor it was my first time at convention too, didn't get up to speak but it was hugely interesting to hear what everyone had to say. Outside of the delegates from my own branch I only knew one other person of the 500 odd delegates yet I left after the three days knowing exactly what Acequion means when they speak of the certain faction trying to get us to stand down industrial action... I could name the few people now! And while it was great to see debate on the topic in such a large forum, it was frustrating when it became so apparent that these people were going to keep putting forward whatever they could to try and convince convention to go against the decision of the ballot a short while ago. Glad it didn't happen. My heart wanted to strike in May but my head felt it was really students, especially practical subject ones, who would lose out if we did that.

judeboy101

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Do we have to ballot AGAIN to go on strike in september

I think they have an envelope surplus in HQ so probably have a few more before Oct midterm

Nellieelephant

I went to convention. It was a stressful, tiring few days. I am a young teacher. People here should be aware that there were not 1 but 2 attempts made to try and make us stand down our industrial action, under the cloak of democracy. In my opinion they kept trying to sway the debate mentioning the loss of the 2 year CID. I am really not sure even if we stood down whether the government would even honour that.

I think the one thing that was not mentioned at convention was if we did stand down we also would have lost members. I wish I had the courage to get up and articulate that, but if they had won, I and a lot of other young teachers would have been seriously questioning the union. So that nullifies the scaremongering of hemorrhaging of members. Those that are jumping ship, leave them off, we are stronger without them.

Finally I too would strike in May. I would strike against this bullying, spineless government all day long. But I know there isn't support for it in my school. The only thing I will keep reminding my staff is we have done S and S for free this year, for nothing, we need to stand again in September, we hopefully might not be on our this time in the fight for pay parity.

judeboy101

"Those that are jumping ship, leave them off, we are stronger without them."

Never a truer word spoken

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

"Those that are jumping ship, leave them off, we are stronger without them."

Never a truer word spoken

Ya but if you heard them going on and on about it you'd swear we were losing le creme de la creme. While people obviously have the right to make their own decisions, jumping ship in a serious crisis for none other than personal gain, is betrayal. So indeed, let them off and let's not lose sleep over them. That point wasn't made and Nellieelephant is also right that it wasn't pointed out that there could be an even bigger exodus if we suddenly threw in the towel. But in fact that very point was made at CEC just a few weeks ago.

But debate was indeed extremely lively and in such a serious crisis,not of the union, but in our profession through these constant pay agreements,you will get lots of conflicting views and all that is natural and healthy. What isn't healthy is when a faction constantly attempt to impose a coup.As Nellieelephant said, they made not one,but two attempts. Add to that the fact that their motion lost at SC the previous evening and also at CEC a short time ago,that's actually FOUR attempts! In fact there is one entire branch causing ructions because they just cannot nor will not accept the result of the last ballot. Presumably this is the crowd we heard about here who had collected signatures to demand a re-ballot.

Interestingly this faction reflect the type of contempt for democracy that is so evident from those currently in power in this country!

Nellieelephant

acequion wrote: »

Ya but if you heard them going on and on about it you'd swear we were losing le creme de la creme. While people obviously have the right to make their own decisions, jumping ship in a serious crisis for none other than personal gain, is betrayal. So indeed, let them off and let's not lose sleep over them. That point wasn't made and Nellieelephant is also right that it wasn't pointed out that there could be an even bigger exodus if we suddenly threw in the towel. But in fact that very point was made at CEC just a few weeks ago.

But debate was indeed extremely lively and in such a serious crisis,not of the union, but in our profession through these constant pay agreements,you will get lots of conflicting views and all that is natural and healthy. What isn't healthy is when a faction constantly attempt to impose a coup.As Nellieelephant said, they made not one,but two attempts. Add to that the fact that their motion lost at SC the previous evening and also at CEC a short time ago,that's actually FOUR attempts! In fact there is one entire branch causing ructions because they just cannot nor will not accept the result of the last ballot. Presumably this is the crowd we heard about here who had collected signatures to demand a re-ballot.

Interestingly this faction reflect the type of contempt for democracy that is so evident from those currently in power in this country!

I am not on CEC. I can only imagine the dismay of those members!!!But people were calling for a "strategy". A message to go back to school with. I think the room did have empathy for those people, especially those in dual union schools. Having reflected on it, this array of disputes has no essay fix, you are either in it for the long haul or not. There is no divine strategy.

I did some Internet research after attending. It is interesting to see what information pops up next to people's name and photographs! Some people have a VERY vested interest in us bowing down to the government.

Anyway I actually think we all need to take out our moral compasses again. Do you believe we are serving the best interest of our bright young people with the new JC? Is pay inequality fair? Should you be discriminated against because of membership of a union? Do you agree with FEMPI legislation is still needed in 2017?


Mr White I don't know your story, but suck it up and get back on the horse.

judeboy101

Nellieelephant wrote: »

I am not on CEC. I can only imagine the dismay of those members!!!But people were calling for a "strategy". A message to go back to school with. I think the room did have empathy for those people, especially those in dual union schools. Having reflected on it, this array of disputes has no essay fix, you are either in it for the long haul or not. There is no divine strategy.

I did some Internet research after attending. It is interesting to see what information pops up next to people's name and photographs! Some people have a VERY vested interest in us bowing down to the government.

Anyway I actually think we all need to take out our moral compasses again. Do you believe we are serving the best interest of our bright young people with the new JC? Is pay inequality fair? Should you be discriminated against because of membership of a union? Do you agree with FEMPI legislation is still needed in 2017?


Mr White I don't know your story, but suck it up and get back on the horse.

The answer to all your questions is NO

BoatMad

But debate was indeed extremely lively and in such a serious crisis,not of the union, but in our profession through these constant pay agreements,you will get lots of conflicting views and all that is natural and healthy. What isn't healthy is when a faction constantly attempt to impose a coup.As Nellieelephant said, they made not one,but two attempts. Add to that the fact that their motion lost at SC the previous evening and also at CEC a short time ago,that's actually FOUR attempts! In fact there is one entire branch causing ructions because they just cannot nor will not accept the result of the last ballot. Presumably this is the crowd we heard about here who had collected signatures to demand a re-ballot.

Interestingly this faction reflect the type of contempt for democracy that is so evident from those currently in power in this country!

I fail to see, how in seeking to put a motion through a democratic process , reflects a contempt for that process, a " coup " by its definition is an attempt to bypass the democratic process.

Equally there is no reason in a democratic organisation , that the constituents are asked again and again what their opinion is. The fact is a majority x months ago , is no reason to believe there is one now. in fact its the proponents of industrial action that are scared of " democracy ", as they are worried that the membership is changing its mind

judeboy101

BoatMad wrote: »

I fail to see, how in seeking to put a motion through a democratic process , reflects a contempt for that process, a " coup " by its definition is an attempt to bypass the democratic process.

Equally there is no reason in a democratic organisation , that the constituents are asked again and again what their opinion is. The fact is a majority x months ago , is no reason to believe there is one now. in fact its the proponents of industrial action that are scared of " democracy ", as they are worried that the membership is changing its mind

Using that same logic one could pester a girl to sleep with you and hope that eventually she would, I think its called the "James bond technique" i.e. 'a thousand No's and one Yes, means yes'.

Icsics

man_no_plan wrote: »

You give them nothing.

The DES covers certified leave from their budget.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

The school receives the €1730 for every 'opt out' teacher, so in effect we are 'giving' the school the money.

ccazza

I was at convention too. I was actually open to hearing both sides of the debate and was glad that the clar was suspended to allow opinions to be heard about how the action was proceeding. I also felt they were right on Thursday as I don't feel the motions put forward by standing committee were representative of all the views in the room on Wednesday. I feel all that time was lost on Thursday morning needlessly. I don't think a motion to stand down action would have passed. I would however have liked it to be there as a motion and then rejected by the members as I feel that would have led to a more unified approach from all members. As they said Convention is the supreme body so if the motion had been defeated there which I'm sure it would have been I think it would have brought a finality to the idea of suspending action. I also think the TUI ballot in September is ridiculous. I feel it's like our last major industrial action where asti members succeeded in getting payment for S&S. We all lost a lot of money then achieving this while TUI and INTO all benefited from our stance without losing anything. This is just the same. We won't get anywhere when TUI executive and INTO executives are blocking ASTI every step of the way.
I think the real time to have taken industrial action was during the orals. The pressure would have been on the government to try to solve the problem then.

Nellieelephant

ccazza wrote: »

I was at convention too. I was actually open to hearing both sides of the debate and was glad that the clar was suspended to allow opinions to be heard about how the action was proceeding. I also felt they were right on Thursday as I don't feel the motions put forward by standing committee were representative of all the views in the room on Wednesday. I feel all that time was lost on Thursday morning needlessly. I don't think a motion to stand down action would have passed. I would however have liked it to be there as a motion and then rejected by the members as I feel that would have led to a more unified approach from all members. As they said Convention is the supreme body so if the motion had been defeated there which I'm sure it would have been I think it would have brought a finality to the idea of suspending action. I also think the TUI ballot in September is ridiculous. I feel it's like our last major industrial action where asti members succeeded in getting payment for S&S. We all lost a lot of money then achieving this while TUI and INTO all benefited from our stance without losing anything. This is just the same. We won't get anywhere when TUI executive and INTO executives are blocking ASTI every step of the way.
I think the real time to have taken industrial action was during the orals. The pressure would have been on the government to try to solve the problem then.

Less than 300 voted on the 10 minute suspension. How should 300 decide to stand down, no way that is a fair representation. Supreme body or not.

The ballot was clear, NO. Can we try and move the debate on to how to move forward rather than backwards? No wonder some people get annoyed, there was a mandate for action not suspension from members!!! I tried of being told, ye got that wrong, vote again lads, Lisbon, Nice. Wear the voters down until you get the answer you want.

Mekekka

ccazza wrote: »

I also felt they were right on Thursday as I don't feel the motions put forward by standing committee were representative of all the views in the room on Wednesday.... I don't think a motion to stand down action would have passed. I would however have liked it to be there as a motion and then rejected by the members as I feel that would have led to a more unified approach from all members.

I spoke to a member of standing committee about why all potential motions were not put before the convention masses (out of curiousity as opposed to being against what they put forward) and was told that they had a duty not just to put forward motions but to put forward motions that respected any ballots or verified decisions which had gone previously... Basically, (to paraphrase), they couldn't put any motions re:suspending or standing down industrial action forward as the current stance is to keep it going, as mandated by the wider membership.
I do agree that it would most likely have fallen anyway but they couldn't suggest such motions as they couldn't put in anything which was contradictory to the union stance at the moment.
Makes sense overall and while I get where people were coming from, you could see it was the same four or five voices dissenting the whole time. A few of the same people have said today publicly that their ideas were 'ignored'.. No they weren't, they just weren't what the wider membership agreed with.

ccazza

Mekekka wrote: »

I spoke to a member of standing committee about why all potential motions were not put before the convention masses (out of curiousity as opposed to being against what they put forward) and was told that they had a duty not just to put forward motions but to put forward motions that respected any ballots or verified decisions which had gone previously... Basically, (to paraphrase), they couldn't put any motions re:suspending or standing down industrial action forward as the current stance is to keep it going, as mandated by the wider membership.
I do agree that it would most likely have fallen anyway but they couldn't suggest such motions as they couldn't put in anything which was contradictory to the union stance at the moment.
Makes sense overall and while I get where people were coming from, you could see it was the same four or five voices dissenting the whole time. A few of the same people have said today publicly that their ideas were 'ignored'.. No they weren't, they just weren't what the wider membership agreed with.

Actually that makes sense. It's a pity that that point wasn't made on Thursday.

acequion

ccazza wrote: »

I don't think a motion to stand down action would have passed. I would however have liked it to be there as a motion and then rejected by the members as I feel that would have led to a more unified approach from all members. .

Don't underestimate the power of persuasion! As you will have noticed, due to some small irregularity, those in favour of that motion [ie to debate standing down industrial action] got to hold up their vote twice. There is no doubt that more votes went up the second time. Why,because more people than we'd like are whimsical and very open to persuasion.So if we had gone down the road of that debate, I've no doubt that it would have again thrown up the 50/50 divide and maybe even swung towards the yes. In any case the debate on debating standing down industrial action covered all the arguments, both for and against such a measure,so more of it would have really wasted time, plus the danger of people going, Ok, yes,whatever!! As they invariably do when constantly worn down on the same old ground.

But I agree that being able to hear all viewpoints in such a big forum was really interesting.