Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

SligoBrewer

I would have loved to have gone to convention but had school trips and exams to contend with. And people say that CIDs aren't being fought for? lol

Thanks so much to Acequion and anyone who spoke up in favour of LPTs. We owe so much to you.

TheDriver

Icsics wrote: »

The school receives the ?1730 for every 'opt out' teacher, so in effect we are 'giving' the school the money.

Correct and this is used to cover the work that the opt out person should be assigned in form of covering uncertified sick leave and supervising lunchbreaks.

judeboy101

TheDriver wrote: »

Correct and this is used to cover the work that the opt out person should be assigned in form of covering uncertified sick leave and supervising lunchbreaks.

Why would the government pay my school to cover for supervision when I have never done a days supervision in my career? If my school could pay for supervision before the s&s deal without me why get money for me now?

evolving_doors

TheDriver wrote: »

Correct and this is used to cover the work that the opt out person should be assigned in form of covering uncertified sick leave and supervising lunchbreaks.

Out of interest, what happens to any unclaimed monies?

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Out of interest, what happens to any unclaimed monies?

It gets thrown into general pot for strippers and coke?

TheDriver

The school gets an allowance of 43hours x WTE plus the Batt hours (which has an odd formula that I need to look up but works out about 1.5 hours x WTE). Some are WTE doing their S&S whilst rest are opt outs. Its estimated that about 15% opt out This is used to cover daily supervision and substitution due to school business and uncertified illness. Some years we would be to pin of our collar and other years we would have some left over but would use it up in May when more supervision I required due to restless exam classes and end of year in sight. I think there is a way to carry forward a certain portion but its DP looks after finer details

BoatMad

judeboy101 wrote: »

Using that same logic one could pester a girl to sleep with you and hope that eventually she would, I think its called the "James bond technique" i.e. 'a thousand No's and one Yes, means yes'.

huh, A yes freely given is a yes.

BoatMad

Nellieelephant wrote: »

Less than 300 voted on the 10 minute suspension. How should 300 decide to stand down, no way that is a fair representation. Supreme body or not.

The ballot was clear, NO. Can we try and move the debate on to how to move forward rather than backwards? No wonder some people get annoyed, there was a mandate for action not suspension from members!!! I tried of being told, ye got that wrong, vote again lads, Lisbon, Nice. Wear the voters down until you get the answer you want.

again , there is no reason to believe an answer given a period of time ago is the same answer today or tomorrow

Peoples opinions change over time and its a good democratic systems that asked them the same question again from time to time

or should we have left the first divorce poll stand forever

clearly those arguing against another democratic process are scared it might go against them

Nellieelephant

BoatMad wrote: »

again , there is no reason to believe an answer given a period of time ago is the same answer today or tomorrow

Peoples opinions change over time and its a good democratic systems that asked them the same question again from time to time

or should we have left the first divorce poll stand forever

clearly those arguing against another democratic process are scared it might go against them

No i am not scared. I just don't think less than 300 people should overturn a ballot completed by thousands. It is my understanding that something cannot go to ballot unless there is a change. The last ballot afforded those with 15 or more years service to opt out of S and S. Well to pay to opt out. More inequality.

Why should less than 300 people decide to stand down?

Ballot again but as I had said I do have problem with constant repeat ballots. Some of us won't go away and continue to fight for LPT s. A CID is great but let's remember when you sign up to LRA you sign a document rubber stamping pay inequality. The ASTI has not done that.

BoatMad

Nellieelephant wrote: »

No i am not scared. I just don't think less than 300 people should overturn a ballot completed by thousands. It is my understanding that something cannot go to ballot unless there is a change. The last ballot afforded those with 15 or more years service to opt out of S and S. Well to pay to opt out. More inequality.

Why should less than 300 people decide to stand down?

Ballot again but as I had said I do have problem with constant repeat ballots. Some of us won't go away and continue to fight for LPT s. A CID is great but let's remember when you sign up to LRA you sign a document rubber stamping pay inequality. The ASTI has not done that.

As I understand it the motion was to discuss the issue of not proceeding , not a motion in itself to suspend industrial action ?

Nellieelephant

BoatMad wrote: »

As I understand it the motion was to discuss the issue of not proceeding , not a motion in itself to suspend industrial action ?

No it was to suspend all industrial action relating to Junior Cert reform and LRA.

judeboy101

BoatMad wrote: »

huh, A yes freely given is a yes.

You do knw that's the defence used most often by date rapists, right?

BoatMad

judeboy101 wrote: »

You do knw that's the defence used most often by date rapists, right?

no it isnt , a freely given consent , is just that , a rape occurs when consent is not given or withdrawn

and you have a bit of a cheek trying to equate the issues

judeboy101

BoatMad wrote: »

no it isnt , a freely given consent , is just that , a rape occurs when consent is not given or withdrawn

and you have a bit of a cheek trying to equate the issues

Do a bit of googling. So many cases of young girls repeatedly saying no, but finally one yes to a partner. Dors that one yes counteract all the previous no's? You day it does, I say it doesn't.

r93kaey5p2izun

BoatMad wrote: »

again , there is no reason to believe an answer given a period of time ago is the same answer today or tomorrow

Peoples opinions change over time and its a good democratic systems that asked them the same question again from time to time

or should we have left the first divorce poll stand forever

clearly those arguing against another democratic process are scared it might go against them

Does democracy keep asking the same question? Really? Will we rerun the divorce referendum now again just to check once more? Perhaps we should check there hasn't been a change of heart on marriage equality in the past two years? Your reference to the divorce referendum is just silly - there was a long gap between ballots, not a few months.

BoatMad

Kolton Teeny Hall wrote: »

Does democracy keep asking the same question? Really? Will we rerun the divorce referendum now again just to check once more? Perhaps we should check there hasn't been a change of heart on marriage equality in the past two years? Your reference to the divorce referendum is just silly - there was a long gap between ballots, not a few months.

I think where evidence emerges that attitudes are changing ( or not ) , I personally believe all democracies would benefit by asking the question again , especially in tight ballot situations . Switzerland does it regularly

acequion

BoatMad wrote: »

I think where evidence emerges that attitudes are changing ( or not ) , I personally believe all democracies would benefit by asking the question again , especially in tight ballot situations . Switzerland does it regularly

Could we have an example of the above please?

Nellieelephant

BoatMad wrote: »

I think where evidence emerges that attitudes are changing ( or not ) , I personally believe all democracies would benefit by asking the question again , especially in tight ballot situations . Switzerland does it regularly

Where is the evidence for this in regards to LRA 2?

deiseindublin

Pity TUI don't rerun tight ballots.

SligoBrewer

<mod SNip>
Ok no need to publicise
Ta
Mod

Mekekka

BoatMad wrote: »

As I understand it the motion was to discuss the issue of not proceeding , not a motion in itself to suspend industrial action ?

The initial motion was a procedural one where they wanted to suspend standing orders for "10 minutes" so standing committee could go through all potential motions as opposed to just the two which they presented to us... 1 hour was spent debating whether to stop for that ten minutes...
This procedural motion however also contained the caveat that if the suspension of standing orders went ahead, they wanted a particular motion they had drafted on suspending industrial action to be included as a must.
So, essentially, they wanted us to vote to hear all potential motions so that their motion to stand down would have to be included. It was pointed out later that this same idea or motion had been rejected by standing committee the night before for the reasons mentioned in my last post so the motion was actually out of order, and therefore technically couldn't be put forward anyway.

CWF

Is it possible for an ASTI member that is due to get CID (2 years teaching in the school) to leave the ASTI and join TUI so as to get the CID. I have heard about teachers doing this but not sure if it could be true.

judeboy101

CWF wrote: »

Is it possible for an ASTI member that is due to get CID (2 years teaching in the school) to leave the ASTI and join TUI so as to get the CID. I have heard about teachers doing this but not sure if it could be true.

of course its possible. its also possible to cross a picket, and its also possible to watch a friend get bullied and not do anything about it.

TheDriver

You can of course try and succeed in doing the above but you wont actually get the CID unless TUI has negotiating rights in your school

CWF

judeboy101 wrote: »

of course its possible. its also possible to cross a picket, and its also possible to watch a friend get bullied and not do anything about it.

OK thanks that's great!

CWF

Also, if you joined the TUI from ASTI, would you get back paid for moneys lost?

evolving_doors

CWF wrote: »

Also, if you joined the TUI from ASTI, would you get back paid for moneys lost?

You'd have to ask your union about that.

Icsics

Following on from the attempts at convention to essentially reballot on LRA, a member is collection 700 signatures to force a special CEC to explore same

acequion

CWF wrote: »

Also, if you joined the TUI from ASTI, would you get back paid for moneys lost?

I appreciate your desire for a CID and we all need more money but there's definitely more to life and to a job than money. I am not exaggerating when I say that at this time of year in the run up to the exams, I work pretty much all day every day [with breaks] Mon-Fri. By all day I mean from about 9am-10 /11pm and I also put in a lot of hours on Sunday. Do I like that kind of pace? Hell no!! Do I feel I have a choice? No again. And that is in a year without CP hours and with large resistance to a lot of the extra workload of the new JC. Now I'm in my 50's and I think the only reason I'm not completely burnt out is because I've only been in this job for about 25 years. I wouldn't like to be in your shoes with presumably a long career ahead of you, but if I were you I'd consider staying with the union who is doing the most to fight against ever deteriorating working conditions and an unsustainable workload. Granted the pace is not always so hectic and we do have good holidays, but all the indications are that the job will get even tougher

You might also consider that some day you might need your union to defend you and it may not be wise to get known as someone who jumps ship for self interest.

Just some perspective!

SligoBrewer

CWF wrote: »

Also, if you joined the TUI from ASTI, would you get back paid for moneys lost?

I'm actually in disbelief here.

We are down €300k over the course of a career and you're weighing up selling out to Bruton for €2k gross/ €1k net assuming full hours.