Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

Back to the title of thread
"Where now for Asti?"
Feel it's even more pertinent now .
In reality what can now be achieved ?
The tui are in Board for the govt.
The Asti is now publically tearing itself apart.
Why would the govt give ANY concessions now ?
This is meant as a genuine question.
Realistically does anybody still feel anything can be achieved?

All we have to do is nothing. Let the dead weight in the union be shed. Start playing puck with s&s, e.g turn up one day and give no notice but withdraw it the reinstate it next day then randomly pull it mid way through a teaching day a week later, create chaos. Approach permanent staff in tui only schools and give them incentives to join asti so we can cause chaos. Run media campaign of giant doomsday clock counting down to our withdrawal of work on turs-thurs after Easter 2018. Wildcat protests outside all exam conferences in June 2018 etc...

MrJones1973

judeboy101 wrote: »

All we have to do is nothing. Let the dead weight in the union be shed. Start playing puck with s&s, e.g turn up one day and give no notice but withdraw it the reinstate it next day then randomly pull it mid way through a teaching day a week later, create chaos. Approach permanent staff in tui only schools and give them incentives to join asti so we can cause chaos. Run media campaign of giant doomsday clock counting down to our withdrawal of work on turs-thurs after Easter 2018. Wildcat protests outside all exam conferences in June 2018 etc...

Realistically most of the above won't happen. Posting here on it's own won't make it happen thats for sure . What specific actions will you take to make it happen?

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Realistically most of the above won't happen. Posting here on it's own won't make it happen thats for sure . What specific actions will you take to make it happen?

For starters I've told the 3 colleagues in my school who have left the Asti and joined the tui, not to ask me for any more favours covering them (I'm an opt out and frequently get asked to cover for colleagues due to having 5 extra classes free a week). Balls in your court, what have you done personally (union business doesn't count).

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

km79 wrote: »

Back to the title of thread
"Where now for Asti?"
Feel it's even more pertinent now .
In reality what can now be achieved ?
The tui are in Board for the govt.
The Asti is now publically tearing itself apart.
Why would the govt give ANY concessions now ?
This is meant as a genuine question.
Realistically does anybody still feel anything can be achieved?

All we have to do is nothing. Let the dead weight in the union be shed. Start playing puck with s&s, e.g turn up one day and give no notice but withdraw it the reinstate it next day then randomly pull it mid way through a teaching day a week later, create chaos. Approach permanent staff in tui only schools and give them incentives to join asti so we can cause chaos. Run media campaign of giant doomsday clock counting down to our withdrawal of work on turs-thurs after Easter 2018. Wildcat protests outside all exam conferences in June 2018 etc...

Question I asked was given the current tui and Asti situation realistically what do we think the govt would concede on at this point ?
I see no reason for them to concede on anything now

deiseindublin

judeboy101 wrote: »

For starters I've told the 3 colleagues in my school who have left the Asti and joined the tui, not to ask me for any more favours covering them.

They'd have some brass neck to ask any ASTIs for a favour.

Off topic but is there much animosity toward them in the staff room overall?

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

They'd have some brass neck to ask any ASTIs for a favour.

Off topic but is there much animosity toward them in the staff room overall?

Nothing overt but put it this way, I doubt they'll be getting many invites to staff weddings anytime soon

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Nothing can or will happen until September. We are a democratic union and they have a right to a special convention if they get signatures

I think it's worth recalling the birth of Asti fightback which was in response to the perceived roll over majority at that time. I fully supported fight back. I still do.
I think it important that our opponents have the right to use procedures. We all do
In the past headquarters would bury opponents in the rules and procedures if they didn't like where a motion was going.
Let's keep it civil and allow every dog it's day even those who use hyperbole. North Korea me backside. The man in question is favoured by the Irish times which is de facto the press office of the Department of education. A lot of high fives from the same people over and over again. His blog is an echo chamber

Ah here Mrwhite these people aren't acting in the spirit of democracy! What they are doing is akin to a coup, though legally they are entitled to do it. But just because a thing is legal,it doesn't make it right.They are tearing the union apart at a time when it's the last thing we need,they are sneering at the democratic structures while using them to serve their own ends and there is no doubt but that they have an agenda here. The fact that there are Fine Gaelers and Fine Gael sympathisers among them speaks volumes.

Fightback, who I also fully support,may not be to everyone's taste but they never,ever tried to overturn a democratic ballot.

Very,very hard to keep it civil with people like them,I'm afraid.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

Question I asked was given the current tui and Asti situation realistically what do we think the govt would concede on at this point ?
I see no reason for them to concede on anything now

My view is that this current Govt were never going to concede much,if anything at all and you're right,this latest development weakens our hand.

HOWEVER, what I'm banking on is political and economic change. The economy is good and public servants in general want full pay restoration and pay rises.Is every union just going to amble into another straitjacket agreement? You would hope not. And FEMPI, that has to be fully unwinded in the not too distant future. There was a lot of talk at Convention of the need to heap pressure on our local TDs. And there is also the weakness of this Govt and the inevitability of an election in the not too distant future. All this has to impact on public servants pay and conditions and I feel that by holding firm, we are in a stronger position because that makes the politicians nervous.

But that's why I've called it a chess game. The stakes are high and there are zero guarantees,so there can be no concrete plan and it's all high risk. But if we hold firm we may gain something small or perhaps bigger than we think. If we cave,we gain feck all and of that, I'm convinced.

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote:

A lot of high fives from the same people over and over again. His blog is an echo chamber

You don't think the same could be said of this thread?

doc_17

The attempt to gather signatures and force a special congress could be a watershed moment for the ASTI.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

The attempt to gather signatures and force a special congress could be a watershed moment for the ASTI.

Why?

acequion

implausible wrote: »

You don't think the same could be said of this thread?

Not at all. Granted most people who post here are of the same mind and have very strong opinions. And that can be offputting for those with opposing views. But very often those with opposing views are on here too. Do you not remember feardeas? Overall everyone got on very well with him [assuming the fear=him] because this poster was always good natured. That's the problem on the Internet in general. People often tear into each other and mea culpa sometimes on that. But to call this an echo chamber is completely exaggerated.

Pinkycharm

Do ye think that this CID thing will be sorted? We've 5 teachers waiting on one this year and they've been asking about moving to TUI. We've convinced them to stay so far anyway. they want to apply for mortgages and start settling down.

km79

Pinkycharm wrote: »

Do ye think that this CID thing will be sorted? We've 5 teachers waiting on one this year and they've been asking about moving to TUI. We've convinced them to stay so far anyway. they want to apply for mortgages and start settling down.

It will not be sorted . Why would the govt bother ? They are in a massive position of strength now.
They also seem happy to play the waiting game and have far far less to lose . All they have lost is croke park hours from Asti members but they have saved a years pay in s and s, increments etc etc
They have absolutely no need to do ANYTHING
That seems to be what people are suggesting the union should do too ! Not sure why.
People waiting on a CID in this current situation are in an awful situation and I would not judge any of them as some have done here if they feel the need to move
The waiting game is fine for a lot of us but not for them
Especially when there is no indication of what kind of an outcome is even acceptable at this stage
It's an unholy mess which reached its end in November imo and just gets worse with each passing week

Benicetomonty

Forgive ignorance if that's what this is, but am I not right in saying a CID may be granted by the principal/board of a school at any point and that the 2 or 4 years simply represent the point in time where the aforementioned become obliged to offer said CID?

implausible

acequion wrote:

Not at all. Granted most people who post here are of the same mind and have very strong opinions. And that can be offputting for those with opposing views. But very often those with opposing views are on here too. Do you not remember feardeas? Overall everyone got on very well with him [assuming the fear=him] because this poster was always good natured. That's the problem on the Internet in general. People often tear into each other and mea culpa sometimes on that. But to call this an echo chamber is completely exaggerated.

People with strong opinions will go on the internet to discuss them. Those who are lukewarm or disinterested won't. It's the same with Congress, when you're in a room with 100s of like-minded interested union members, it can be easy to forget that they are only a tiny sample of the teachers on the ground.

Benicetomonty

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Forgive ignorance if that's what this is, but am I not right in saying a CID may be granted by the principal/board of a school at any point and that the 2 or 4 years simply represent the point in time where the aforementioned become obliged to offer said CID?

Edit: It would seem not. Disregard.

evolving_doors

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Forgive ignorance if that's what this is, but am I not right in saying a CID may be granted by the principal/board of a school at any point and that the 2 or 4 years simply represent the point in time where the aforementioned become obliged to offer said CID?

That's what I also wanted to know. Did you find an answer since?

Benicetomonty

Gebgbegb wrote: »

That's what I also wanted to know. Did you find an answer since?

In order to qualify for a CID you must:

-be registered with the Teaching Council
-hold appropriate qualifications, including a PGDE/H.Dip/PME
-Have in excess of two years continuous teaching service, under two or more successive written contracts of employment with the same employer that were paid for by monies provided by the Oireachtas

From ASTI website. 3rd point seems to imply the 2 years are necessary.

evolving_doors

Benicetomonty wrote: »

In order to qualify for a CID you must:

-be registered with the Teaching Council
-hold appropriate qualifications, including a PGDE/H.Dip/PME
-Have in excess of two years continuous teaching service, under two or more successive written contracts of employment with the same employer that were paid for by monies provided by the Oireachtas

From ASTI website. 3rd point seems to imply the 2 years are necessary.

But it doesn't preclude offering a CID at the start of the 3rd year, no?

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

Why?

If they get them and force a special congress then it undermines their normal congress as in a very significant number are not happy with the leadership and direction of the ASTI.

The government are sitting there and watching the ASTI go through this and whilst the ASTI are infighting like this, they aren't concerning the government at all.

I don't think it's viable for the ASTI to continue like this past Christmas if things aren't sorted.

Benicetomonty

Gebgbegb wrote: »

But it doesn't preclude offering a CID at the start of the 3rd year, no?

Lots of links re current dispute on same page indicating that 2 year requisite only applicable to TUI.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/cids-explained/

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

If they get them and force a special congress then it undermines their normal congress as in a very significant number are not happy with the leadership and direction of the ASTI.

The government are sitting there and watching the ASTI go through this and whilst the ASTI are infighting like this, they aren't concerning the government at all.

I don't think it's viable for the ASTI to continue like this past Christmas if things aren't sorted.

Fair enough and if this faction force a stand down then yes it will be a watershed moment and I shudder at the thoughts of it.

But if the majority can still face them down,no it won't be watershed.

I would hope the sands will have shifted quite considerably for all public sector unions come Christmas. But if we are all dumbly signed up to some new strait jacket agreement, still under the whip of Fempi, as Celtic Tiger 2 roars ahead,then turkeys voting for xmas comes to mind!

feardeas

acequion wrote: »

Not at all. Granted most people who post here are of the same mind and have very strong opinions. And that can be offputting for those with opposing views. But very often those with opposing views are on here too. Do you not remember feardeas? Overall everyone got on very well with him [assuming the fear=him] because this poster was always good natured. That's the problem on the Internet in general. People often tear into each other and mea culpa sometimes on that. But to call this an echo chamber is completely exaggerated.

Nice to see I'm remembered, fear does indeed infer male, hope the deas part was accurate as well.

Not going to comment much on the issues as it no longer impacts on me. As a point of fact over half the membership in my school left representing long serving teachers, people like me with a decade and more and lpt as well. I don't look on this often so any invective that might come my way is wasted energy. I would imagine that the school I work in is an outlier in terms of the numbers who left and there would be much more unionised workplaces.

Busy time of year for everyone, take care of yourselves and enjoy the summer.

Who knows maybe LRA 2 will be in by the autumn and all this will be a distant memory. :D:D:pac:

Mekekka

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Lots of links re current dispute on same page indicating that 2 year requisite only applicable to TUI.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/cids-explained/

I am one of those who had been supposed to apply for CID so downloaded the form just in case but right on the top it said it was open to those who had signed up to LRA only... So that was that!

SligoBrewer

This rebel faction would be better off trying to force the ASTI to take the DES to court over CIDs if they really had the interests of me and the other CID due teachers at heart.

Do they really think they speak for young teachers?

acequion

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Do they really think they speak for young teachers?

I haven't the slightest doubt that many of these people are totally insincere. They are latching onto the CID problem as an excuse because it sounds so noble.

Their real motive? Bear in mind that the ringleaders, the two people whose names are on the petition and one or two others, are all not far from retirement. So impossible not to be cynical. For others it's probably about money,getting their increments etc and there are also people with known political connections [ie FG and FF] so go figure!

Not that I have the slightest problem with people wanting to toe the Govt line out of self interest or self necessity. At the end of the day we have to look after ourselves and our families.And I would say exactly the same about people jumping ship to TUI to get their CIDs. But in these cases why not be honest! Why undermine the union with lies and duplicity!

evolving_doors

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Lots of links re current dispute on same page indicating that 2 year requisite only applicable to TUI.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/cids-explained/

I think I may be explaining myself badly...

My point is that those 2yrs and 4yrs are ceilings. Beyond either of those terms (depending on your union) you CANNOT be refused a cid (unless there are grounds).

BUT my question is..

Can a school (or indeed any employer) offer a CID before the limit.

e.g. Could a school offer a teacher a CID in their 3rd year?
The school being the employer ... not the DES.

Benicetomonty

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think I may be explaining myself badly...

My point is that those 2yrs and 4yrs are ceilings. Beyond either of those terms (depending on your union) you CANNOT be refused a cid (unless there are grounds).

BUT my question is..

Can a school (or indeed any employer) offer a CID before the limit.

e.g. Could a school offer a teacher a CID in their 3rd year?
The school being the employer ... not the DES.

Id go back to the ASTI page terminology. The 2 or 4 years are required 'in order to qualify', as opposed to the point where you can no longer legally be refused. Am sure the dept has something similar on their page, maybe thats more definitive.

themusicman

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think I may be explaining myself badly...

My point is that those 2yrs and 4yrs are ceilings. Beyond either of those terms (depending on your union) you CANNOT be refused a cid (unless there are grounds).

BUT my question is..

Can a school (or indeed any employer) offer a CID before the limit.

e.g. Could a school offer a teacher a CID in their 3rd year?
The school being the employer ... not the DES.

I will try and explain as best I can....from the position of having dealt with this

The 4 year time frame is the law
Any employer can offer a cid....the equivalent of permanent at any time....including the first day you start work
The 2 year cid qualifying time is as a result of a negotiated agreement

So can a school offer a cid after 2 years ....yes.....but it would not necessarily be approved by the department...depending on the circumstances of the person being offered it........hence the advertisements that always state subject to sanction

And no principal will give you a cid contract that they cannot honour without the department salaries section sanctioning it...because if they did and the department did not sanction it then the board of management would have liability for the honouring of the contract