Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

judeboy101

PureClareGold wrote: »

"slave away in slar meetings" What utter nonsense. Spending time working with colleagues discussing what constitutes good work, learning from each other on how we teach different things in our classrooms. The slar has been the most positive experience I've had in my school in all my years of teaching. We are paid to work and we do need to earn it.

I'm paid to teach, its in the job title, teacher

PureClareGold

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm paid to teach, its in the job title, teacher

And do you not think you should be a learner as well. Do you not think you could help some of your colleagues as well. No person is an island.
I see my role as so much more than just a teacher

jayo76

PureClareGold wrote: »

"The slar has been the most positive experience I've had in my school in all my years of teaching. .

I honestly do hope this is a joke. Most positive experience you have had in all years of teaching?!

Not the sense of satisfaction of seeing students mature over the 5/6 years they spend in school? Not the sense of satisfaction of a student achieving a Leaving Cert result they never believed they could? Not the sense of satisfaction of engaging with students and making a difference? Not the sense of satisfaction of witnessing students who struggle academically prospering in sport, the school musical, enjoying an extra curricular trip?

I really do hope that your experience of teaching has not been so narrow that an SLAR meeting could genuinely be the most positive experience in all your teaching years.

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

"slave away in slar meetings" What utter nonsense. Spending time working with colleagues discussing what constitutes good work, learning from each other on how we teach different things in our classrooms. The slar has been the most positive experience I've had in my school in all my years of teaching. We are paid to work and we do need to earn it.

What a load of bull! Do you ever see a load of plumbers sitting around a table discussing the best way to change that boiler or a load of nurses how to prep the patient for surgery. Or a load of solicitors how to represent the client. These are the things you learn when you get trained and that you do occasional inservices on. But at work you DO the work,not TALK ABOUT the work.

Have you ever wondered how some of us got to the top of our game to become first class teachers in every aspect of our work without any of that shyte going on? I'd hazard a guess and say it was precisely because there was none of that shyte going on. We were trusted as trained professionals to perfect our job on the job and to seek help only when and if we needed it.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I would be surprised if those who signed it don't turn up at their branch when selecting delegates.

Given the fact that most branch meetings struggle to attract more than a handful of members and given the fact that the majority of teachers are utterly disengaged, I'd be beyond amazed to find an avalanche at a branch meeting in June or July.Remember all these 1.000 or so people had to do was sign a form,simple as, so unless pigs start flying!!

And I'd agree with Mrwhite that there won't be too many clamouring to give up time in their summer holidays to attend a convention to merely debate a motion which has already failed three times. I don't doubt that the instigators will try everything in their power,those of us at convention witnessed their behaviour,but convince all those teachers to suddenly get engaged, for an unlikely result? Can't see it.

PureClareGold

jayo76 wrote: »

I honestly do hope this is a joke. Most positive experience you have had in all years of teaching?!

Not the sense of satisfaction of seeing students mature over the 5/6 years they spend in school? Not the sense of satisfaction of a student achieving a Leaving Cert result they never believed they could? Not the sense of satisfaction of engaging with students and making a difference? Not the sense of satisfaction of witnessing students who struggle academically prospering in sport, the school musical, enjoying an extra curricular trip?

I really do hope that your experience of teaching has not been so narrow that an SLAR meeting could genuinely be the most positive experience in all your teaching years.

My slar meeting encapsulated the following:
A sense of satisfaction of seeing students do presentations they never thought they'd be able to do and getting such a sense of satisfaction and success. A sense of satisfaction of showcasing the students I had helped through the presentation and my peers complementing their efforts and success. A sense of satisfaction in seeing students who traditionally would struggle in an exam achieve in an oral presentation space.
So in summary what you outlined as the most positive experiences for a teacher, I experienced those in one two hour meeting with my colleagues.
So yes it has been the most positive experience for me. Don't judge it until you've gone through it.

MrJones1973

I dont think subject meetings are a bad idea but they should be flexible. I think teachers working together is not a bad idea but the SLAR meetings are a waste of time as it really has nothing to do with methodology or passing around ideas.

In this day of multiple communication why do we insist on physical meetings-there will be at least one crank-whose pervasive negativity will make the thing pointless anyway.

MrJones1973

PureClareGold wrote: »

My slar meeting encapsulated the following:
A sense of satisfaction of seeing students do presentations they never thought they'd be able to do and getting such a sense of satisfaction and success. A sense of satisfaction of showcasing the students I had helped through the presentation and my peers complementing their efforts and success. A sense of satisfaction in seeing students who traditionally would struggle in an exam achieve in an oral presentation space.
So in summary what you outlined as the most positive experiences for a teacher, I experienced those in one two hour meeting with my colleagues.
So yes it has been the most positive experience for me. Don't judge it until you've gone through it.

Hmmm- Look you are obviously entitled to feel positive about what you felt positive about-but it just seems pointless. Did you really need a meeting to learn all that? How much outside of class time did you put into these projects? Did it add to your workload? The last few questions are not me being smart-just curious.

BTW-Im in favour of Oral exam. I wasnt happy about the way I dealt with them though. However I didnt need a meeting to tell me what worked and what didnt.

PureClareGold

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I dont think subject meetings are a bad idea but they should be flexible. I think teachers working together is not a bad idea but the SLAR meetings are a waste of time as it really has nothing to do with methodology or passing around ideas.

In this day of multiple communication why do we insist on physical meetings-there will be at least one crank-whose pervasive negativity will make the thing pointless anyway.

Do you not get what the acronym stands for SUBJECT LEARNING and Assessment Review. It's made for teachers working together and sharing ideas around methodologies.
If you look at JCT website they have suggestions on how to run these meetings so that type of behaviour doesn't dominate and they are positive experiences. Worked well in our setting.

PureClareGold

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Hmmm- Look you are obviously entitled to feel positive about what you felt positive about-but it just seems pointless. Did you really need a meeting to learn all that? How much outside of class time did you put into these projects? Did it add to your workload? The last few questions are not me being smart-just curious.

Nothing more than I would have been doing anyway. The students did most of their research outside the classroom and worked on the presentations during class. I sat at the side of the room and graded them as they were presenting. Turned the camera at the start and off at the end. Gave the camera to the coordinator who loaded up some for the slar. He got two hours time to prepare for the slar.
I didn't have to change any of my grades so job done once slar done.

MrJones1973

Ah jeez-Just because JCT says something should happen doesnt mean it happens but I find in a lot of schools,there is poor leadership and as a result poor collegiality . But Im glad it worked for you-genuinely.

I had some issues with Oral exam as a lot of kids did little work outside and didnt use Powerpoint . I think though, I probably could have spent more time at it but this year was messy as I had no training and wasnt entirely clear whether I will ever be asked to record a mark!

What proportion of your kids are honours standard?

PureClareGold

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Ah jeez-Just because JCT says something should happen doesnt mean it happens but I find in a lot of schools,there is poor leadership and as a result poor collegiality . But Im glad it worked for you-genuinely.

I had some issues with Oral exam as a lot of kids did little work outside and didnt use Powerpoint . I think though, I probably could have spent more time at it but this year was messy as I had no training and wasnt entirely clear whether I will ever be asked to record a mark!

What proportion of your kids are honours standard?

Not saying that but we did discuss it and agreed to keep on track and it worked for us.
Probably evenly split to be honest but what I found was the ones I think of as ordinary level performed better than some of those I'd consider higher. Different way of assessing them and one where their strengths lie, talking.
Have actually found these students more engaged than before following it.

jayo76

PureClareGold wrote: »

My slar meeting encapsulated the following:
A sense of satisfaction of seeing students do presentations they never thought they'd be able to do and getting such a sense of satisfaction and success. A sense of satisfaction of showcasing the students I had helped through the presentation and my peers complementing their efforts and success. A sense of satisfaction in seeing students who traditionally would struggle in an exam achieve in an oral presentation space.
So in summary what you outlined as the most positive experiences for a teacher, I experienced those in one two hour meeting with my colleagues.
So yes it has been the most positive experience for me. Don't judge it until you've gone through it.

Okay i do genuinely accept they were all positive outcomes of the SLAR meeting but come on surely those in favour of the new Junior Cert shouldn't be holding up the SLAR meetings as it's major selling point and as something that will become the most positive experience ever for teachers. I will admit that I have huge reservations about the new Junior Cert as it currently stands and I have outlined them before and also have to admit that I haven't experienced a SLAR meeting.

However a lot of the things you outline I have done as a matter of course throughout my teaching career without the new JC forcing me to do so. As a History teacher I would regularly ask other History teachers in my school to cast an eye over student's work and see what they think, I would do likewise for them. We would sit down informally even this year without the Croke Park detention hours to look at and compare exams, essays, what we need to cover. We would engage students in project work and oral presentations. This should be good teaching practice long before the introduction of the new JC.

We obviously come from very differing viewpoints on the merits of the JC reforms and that is perfectly fine, i just find it sensationalist to describe SLAR meetings as your most positive teaching experience ever, it comes across as someone determined to extol the virtues of the JC reforms for the sake of doing so.

PureClareGold

acequion wrote: »

What a load of bull! Do you ever see a load of plumbers sitting around a table discussing the best way to change that boiler or a load of nurses how to prep the patient for surgery. Or a load of solicitors how to represent the client. These are the things you learn when you get trained and that you do occasional inservices on. But at work you DO the work,not TALK ABOUT the work.

Have you ever wondered how some of us got to the top of our game to become first class teachers in every aspect of our work without any of that shyte going on? I'd hazard a guess and say it was precisely because there was none of that shyte going on. We were trusted as trained professionals to perfect our job on the job and to seek help only when and if we needed it.

I would certainly hope that if a nurse was prepping be for an operation that she would have had some professionalism about her and talked to her colleagues about the best practices as each patient may have different needs and issues.
How do you know you are at the top of your game? Who tells you? It's a new course so of course I talk to my colleagues. At least now there's a structure to that conversation and I'm not doing it on the run in the corridor or while trying to eat my lunch.
If your only looking for help when you need it then in my opinion it's too late. We should constantly be helping each other. Then it's hot a crisis.

PureClareGold

jayo76 wrote: »

Okay i do genuinely accept they were all positive outcomes of the SLAR meeting but come on surely those in favour of the new Junior Cert shouldn't be holding up the SLAR meetings as it's major selling point and as something that will become the most positive experience ever for teachers. I will admit that I have huge reservations about the new Junior Cert as it currently stands and I have outlined them before and also have to admit that I haven't experienced a SLAR meeting.

However a lot of the things you outline I have done as a matter of course throughout my teaching career without the new JC forcing me to do so. As a History teacher I would regularly ask other History teachers in my school to cast an eye over student's work and see what they think, I would do likewise for them. We would sit down informally even this year without the Croke Park detention hours to look at and compare exams, essays, what we need to cover. We would engage students in project work and oral presentations. This should be good teaching practice long before the introduction of the new JC.

We obviously come from very differing viewpoints on the merits of the JC reforms and that is perfectly fine, i just find it sensationalist to describe SLAR meetings as your most positive teaching experience ever, it comes across as someone determined to extol the virtues of the JC reforms for the sake of doing so.

Well great. You'll have no problems so. Best of luck with it all. You must think this is best practice so now the system has caught up with you. For you it's the norm not reform.

jayo76

PureClareGold wrote: »

Well great. You'll have no problems so. Best of luck with it all. You must think this is best practice so now the system has caught up with you. For you it's the norm not reform.

Serious question, do you genuinely believe the things I referred to were not happening in schools before the introduction of the JC reforms?

PureClareGold

jayo76 wrote: »

Serious question, do you genuinely believe the things I referred to were not happening in schools before the introduction of the JC reforms?

In some. Yes. In all. No. Is it best practice. Yes. Did the system recognise it in the past. No. Does the system recognise it now and see it as helping us as professionals and the students we teach. Yes.
So we as teachers agree it's best practice but because it's now written down as best practice it's being "forced" on us!!! As a group of professionals we are giving out about something that helps us. It's crazy

jayo76

PureClareGold wrote: »

In some. Yes. In all. No. Is it best practice. Yes. Did the system recognise it in the past. No. Does the system recognise it now and see it as helping us as professionals and the students we teach. Yes.
So we as teachers agree it's best practice but because it's now written down as best practice it's being "forced" on us!!! As a group of professionals we are giving out about something that helps us. It's crazy

Collaboration between teachers of course benefits everyone. The need to write down and record everything i do have issues with. It feeds into Croke Park Hours, form filling, covering yourself recording and a belief that teachers are not professional enough to meet, collaboborate, plan unless timetabled or forced to do so.

PureClareGold

jayo76 wrote: »

Collaboration between teachers of course benefits everyone. The need to write down and record everything i do have issues with. It feeds into Croke Park Hours, form filling, covering yourself recording and a belief that teachers are not professional enough to meet, collaboborate, plan unless timetabled or forced to do so.

What do you have to write down?
A department plan. Yes - needed before, needed now
Results of tests. Yes - needed before needs now.
There's huge hysteria out there concerning this that is not correct. I used think the same, then left the union and got some training on this. It's actually quite refreshing. But again what do you need to write down and record that you don't have to do already?

joebloggs32

jayo76 wrote: »

Serious question, do you genuinely believe the things I referred to were not happening in schools before the introduction of the JC reforms?

Jayo
If these things were already happening, then why fight against them.

Someone else mentioned nurses. My wife is a nurse who regularly attends course days. They look at case studies of real patients they treated in the past or ones from other hospitals and examine the care given etc. to identify how to improve for the future.

jayo76

PureClareGold wrote: »

What do you have to write down?
A department plan. Yes - needed before, needed now
Results of tests. Yes - needed before needs now.
There's huge hysteria out there concerning this that is not correct. I used think the same, then left the union and got some training on this. It's actually quite refreshing. But again what do you need to write down and record that you don't have to do already?

We have got sidetracked a little. I'm still in the Union, havent had an SLAR meeting yet. My response initially was as i felt it was sensationalist to describe these meetings as the best experience ever. To me that is someone blindly extolling the new JC to you I am blindly criticising it and I accept that. I did not mean to be confrontational. Good luck with everything Im going to relax and switch off!

judeboy101

PureClareGold wrote: »

And do you not think you should be a learner as well. Do you not think you could help some of your colleagues as well. No person is an island.
I see my role as so much more than just a teacher

That's exactly what a teacher is in a classroom. I was hired to be a teacher, not an examiner or an assessor or a trainer or an "educator". This government wants to reduce my class contact time in the name of progress, denying me and other teachers of the most fundamental part of our job i.e. To teach.

MrJones1973

This is the word of the prophet white
The beast shall effectively take English and throw in a few good extras but it shall effectively be English as it shall always have been since Willy S' time but look in yonder distance for the Trojan horse of learning outcomes . They will bleed you dry like leeches pretending to simplify what can't be simplified or quantified and tying ye teachers of the field in unnecessary paper work. Ye laugh at a health and safety​ page in an English subject report now but ye won't laugh when ye can't piss in a chamber pot without writing a learning outcome about it.

acequion

PureClareGold wrote: »

I would certainly hope that if a nurse was prepping be for an operation that she would have had some professionalism about her and talked to her colleagues about the best practices as each patient may have different needs and issues.
How do you know you are at the top of your game? Who tells you? It's a new course so of course I talk to my colleagues. At least now there's a structure to that conversation and I'm not doing it on the run in the corridor or while trying to eat my lunch.
If your only looking for help when you need it then in my opinion it's too late. We should constantly be helping each other. Then it's hot a crisis.

Ah jaysus things are bad enough at the moment without having to read this complete and utter tripe!! You were on here before and your posts belied your age and relative inexperience. Lecturing us all about what SLAR stands for! I could come up with a few more apt acronyms! You should go get yourself a job with the JCT people and let the rest of us get on with actual teaching,before the cheerleaders for admin run it into the ground.

How do I know I'm top of my game? Decades of top results,drawers full of thank you cards, students wanting to be in my class and students who are still friends years after moving on from school. I reckon that's top of the game and far more authentic than a collegue complimenting me in what sounds like a mutual self validation session, while some sub sits in your class or you have to leave your own kids at a child minder.

And as for the nurses, very recently I had surgery. Very glad was I that the wonderful nurses were looking after me, exuding professionalism and not off in some room discussing it around the table.

You seriously need a good strong dose of reality!

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Jayo
If these things were already happening, then why fight against them.

Someone else mentioned nurses. My wife is a nurse who regularly attends course days. They look at case studies of real patients they treated in the past or ones from other hospitals and examine the care given etc. to identify how to improve for the future.

"Regularly",how regularly? While obviously a certain amount of ongoing training is needed, like so much nowadays it is over exaggerated.Nothing beats learning on your feet. And while I don't doubt that many professions and sectors are now being more and more subjected to bureaucracy,of which is excessive training,this notion of SLARS comes top of the pile.

And don't forget that one of the main motives here is to train teachers to eventually do ALL the marking,for ALL exams. There were on about our pensions costing too much during the week. This is all part of a long term plan to reduce costs to a minimum. Make no mistake!

SligoBrewer

Lads, the reason I became a teacher was to see the smiles on the faces of my colleagues in a subject department meeting.


Nothing made my day more than when we talked about what we did, we wrote down what we decided on and what action was to be taken.

The sun was stinging the ground. Birds in chorus. The doors of the school opened and the teachers beamed out. The glint in our eyes as they had spent a day earning our crust; another subject department meeting making it all worthwhile.

MacGyver007

Threat of redundancies has been removed:

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-pulls-ballot-following-removal-of-redundancy-threat/

judeboy101

MacGyver007 wrote: »

Threat of redundancies has been removed:

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-pulls-ballot-following-removal-of-redundancy-threat/

I find it suspicious no school in country is over quota
also what about Asti cids who ate losing their jobs due to return of career break?

Villain

I wonder how long the ASTI can maintain this hardline stance, the small number of union members who support the current stance are vocal and love to like posts here but at the end of the day it's a numbers game and if you have lost 450 members and have over 1,000 voting for a meeting it seems the writing is on the door and I'm sure the department smell blood.

judeboy101

Villain wrote: »

I wonder how long the ASTI can maintain this hardline stance, the small number of union members who support the current stance are vocal and love to like posts here but at the end of the day it's a numbers game and if you have lost 450 members and have over 1,000 voting for a meeting it seems the writing is on the door and I'm sure the department smell blood.

The 450 are most probably yes voters and are dead weight.the 1000 are probably older members who want a bump to their pensions or think they're in line for a 2nd deputy/new post position if its a yes. And the rest just want to grab power once ed and co go