Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

The 450 are most probably yes voters and are dead weight.the 1000 are probably older members who want a bump to their pensions or think they're in line for a 2nd deputy/new post position if its a yes. And the rest just want to grab power once ed and co go

Totally agree. If these people represented the majority how come their motion keeps getting defeated?

When I hear all this talk about the "benefits" and "protection" of LRA and how those of us opposed have a "hardline" it just proves the spin of propaganda. The "benefits" of these agreements are mere drops in an ocean of cuts and demands which is the reality of the agreements we've endured since 2011.

People need to remember that there was life before these very euphemistically termed "agreements," when benefits were far better and when the ominous sounding "protection" wasn't necessary. Workers were a lot happier too,but hey,who needs happy workers!! Isn't it all about productivity!

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Totally agree. If these people represented the majority how come their motion keeps getting defeated?

When I hear all this talk about the "benefits" and "protection" of LRA and how those of us opposed have a "hardline" it just proves the spin of propaganda. The "benefits" of these agreements are mere drops in an ocean of cuts and demands which is the reality of the agreements we've endured since 2011.

People need to remember that there was life before these very euphemistically termed "agreements," when benefits were far better and when the ominous sounding "protection" wasn't necessary. Workers were a lot happier too,but hey,who needs happy workers!! Isn't it all about productivity!

Give it a couple of years and it'll be clients accessing a service instead of students accessing an education

jayo76

Villain wrote: »

I wonder how long the ASTI can maintain this hardline stance, the small number of union members who support the current stance are vocal and love to like posts here but at the end of the day it's a numbers game and if you have lost 450 members and have over 1,000 voting for a meeting it seems the writing is on the door and I'm sure the department smell blood.

It is a numbers game that is for sure. So the greater number of ASTI members voted to reject the offer in the ballot this year, 53 to 47 %, how does that represent your small number? The greater number of people on CEC and standing Committee voted against debating a motion to suspend Industrial action. The greater number of delegates at convention voted against suspending business to allow Standing Committee consider this motion again.

It would seem to me that the " small number" you refer to are in fact a democratic majority who have voted against caving in but that a minority of people dont accept this. Over 1000 signatures have been collected fair enough, there are 18000 members. If a rival petition was to be organised saying there should be no special convention I would be fairly sure there would be as many signatures. The numbers game is very interesting.

SligoBrewer

There was an 80% mandate for strikes over LPT pay.
There was an 80% mandate for withdrawal of free S&S.

I have no time for those who try to subvert successive ballots that have called on our union to do more action with regards to the working conditions of teachers young and old. This subversion is apparently taken in my interests because I've no CID and it is due this year. To me, all it is is a selfish coup.

jayo76

Despite my overwhelming opposition to it I actually think the new Junior Cert reforms could be very useful to the people behind this petition. They could take a short course in CSPE with particular focus on the chapter of Democracy. It really is laughable to hear them banging on about how this is an assertion of democracy when in reality it is an attempt to overturn democratic ballots to (a) oppose the Junior Cert (b) Withdraw from Croke Park hours ( c) Take action in support of equal pay.

I would have much greater respect for them if they came clean and admitted that the CID issue is just a front. Their issue in reality is that they are unhappy that in recent years people have been elected to positions in the Union who are willing to oppose Government actions to damage education in general and the pay and working conditions of teachers. Their preferred candidates for election were defeated by people they obviously have great issue with but again in democratic elections. Essentially as they see it they want to regain control of the union and steer it in a direction which acquiesces with government policy and accepts whatever they throw us.

It has been mentioned here before but and I wont name names can you imagine the indignation which would have been unleashed from the podium at convention if the ballot result earlier this year had gone 53-47 in favour of acceptance and delegates unhappy at this result then tried to usurp convention by demanding constant discussion on the issue of that maybe because the ballot result was so close we should actually reballot and consider stepping up action again. Indeed can you imagine the indignation from them if people in favour of continued action went a step further and demanded a special convention to see wnhat the Union membership really felt

MacGyver007

jayo76 wrote: »

Despite my overwhelming opposition to it I actually think the new Junior Cert reforms could be very useful to the people behind this petition. They could take a short course in CSPE with particular focus on the chapter of Democracy. It really is laughable to hear them banging on about how this is an assertion of democracy when in reality it is an attempt to overturn democratic ballots to (a) oppose the Junior Cert (b) Withdraw from Croke Park hours ( c) Take action in support of equal pay.

I would have much greater respect for them if they came clean and admitted that the CID issue is just a front. Their issue in reality is that they are unhappy that in recent years people have been elected to positions in the Union who are willing to oppose Government actions to damage education in general and the pay and working conditions of teachers. Their preferred candidates for election were defeated by people they obviously have great issue with but again in democratic elections. Essentially as they see it they want to regain control of the union and steer it in a direction which acquiesces with government policy and accepts whatever they throw us.

It has been mentioned here before but and I wont name names can you imagine the indignation which would have been unleashed from the podium at convention if the ballot result earlier this year had gone 53-47 in favour of acceptance and delegates unhappy at this result then tried to usurp convention by demanding constant discussion on the issue of that maybe because the ballot result was so close we should actually reballot and consider stepping up action again. Indeed can you imagine the indignation from them if people in favour of continued action went a step further and demanded a special convention to see wnhat the Union membership really felt

Well said! Couldn't have put it any better.

Nellieelephant

Well I hope that those that have swopped camps for their CID enjoy their contract of indefinite deprival because the one Union that went on strike for pay parity they abandoned.

judeboy101

Nellieelephant wrote: »

Well I hope that those that have swopped camps for their CID enjoy their contract of indefinite deprival because the one Union that went on strike for pay parity they abandoned.

*Betrayed their fellow union members and crossed a picket

FTFY OP :-)

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

Nellieelephant wrote: »

Well I hope that those that have swopped camps for their CID enjoy their contract of indefinite deprival because the one Union that went on strike for pay parity they abandoned.

*Betrayed their fellow union members and crossed a picket

FTFY OP :-)

This kind of comment adds nothing to the debate
I am lucky that I am in a permanent job but I would hate to be in their position and fully understand someone with kids, house etc switching at this stage to ensure some kind of employment certainty
They waited as long as they felt they could given the inaction over the past few months and no meaningful plan of action going forward
They felt they had to move. They may well end up regretting it or they may not.
But they are people with lives outside of school.
Sorry about the rant but it had to be said .

jayo76

While i dont agree with it the decision of individual union members to leave and join the TUI may be understandable in a panicked response. What is not acceptable is for older, prominent Union members to use their decision to do so as the leverage to attack the Union leadership, democratic structures and demand a special convention.

FFS these people's selling point is that the ASTI has abandoned its younger, vulnerable members. The reality is that the ASTI membership voted in significant majorities to reject LRA and to take action in support of younger teachers on unequal pay scales. The Government then withdrew the Ward Report and 2 year CID, something which should not be contingent on LRA, a spiteful act by a spiteful government. Yet these petition supporters are still beating the drum that the ASTI leadership has abandoned it's young vulnerable members and that the ASTI has caused the CID issue. If these young teachers choose to leave the ASTI they are in fact leaving the Union which stood up for them to go to the Union which has accepted continued pay discrimination. My attitude, let them make that decision if they choose but petitioners get a grip and stop using it as your vehicle to get your way on Union strategy. Just admit instead as right wing Conservatives you are looking to oust ASTI leadership and get the ASTI back into the cosy relationship with Government and public partnership.

What is also not acceptable and I know it has happened in more than one school is Principals who are supposed ASTI members more than gently advising young teachers to get away from the ASTI and join the TUI. This has happened in more than one school.

Bean Scoile

Why would anyone regret switching from Asti to tui? Sure they will get whatever is offered to the Asti when we eventually come to an agreement anyway.

km79

Bean Scoile wrote: »

Why would anyone regret switching from Asti to tui? Sure they will get whatever is offered to the Asti when we eventually come to an agreement anyway.

Staffroom/working relationships
Just look up a few posts you will get a flavour

km79

Bean Scoile wrote: »

Why would anyone regret switching from Asti to tui? Sure they will get whatever is offered to the Asti when we eventually come to an agreement anyway.

Staffroom/working relationships
Just look up a few posts you will get a flavour

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

This kind of comment adds nothing to the debate
I am lucky that I am in a permanent job but I would hate to be in their position and fully understand someone with kids, house etc switching at this stage to ensure some kind of employment certainty
They waited as long as they felt they could given the inaction over the past few months and no meaningful plan of action going forward
They felt they had to move. They may well end up regretting it or they may not.
But they are people with lives outside of school.
Sorry about the rant but it had to be said .

Define permanent job in the current climate

km79

I'm done
Nobody can have an opinion on here that is even slightly opposed to hardline union stances it seems without their posts being nitpicked

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

I'm done
Nobody can have an opinion on here that is even slightly opposed to hardline union stances it seems without their posts being nitpicked

Apologies if you think I'm nitpicking but anyone hired in last 10 yrs is probably not permanent so they are all at risk of being sacked and that is a sizable chunk of the unions future. I've no sympathy for anyone who agreed to "have my back" but when the going gets tough, leaves me in the dust. Dante Alighieri had something profound to say about those type of actions, if I remember my classics.

Bean Scoile

km79 wrote: »

Staffroom/working relationships
Just look up a few posts you will get a flavour

TBH, the teachers who are aware of union politics in our school aren't on the radar of the younger teachers on our staff anyway. I don't think they care what they think about them.

MrJones1973

judeboy101 wrote: »

Apologies if you think I'm nitpicking but anyone hired in last 10 yrs is probably not permanent so they are all at risk of being sacked and that is a sizable chunk of the unions future. I've no sympathy for anyone who agreed to "have my back" but when the going gets tough, leaves me in the dust. Dante Alighieri had something profound to say about those type of actions, if I remember my classics.

What do you mean in risk of being sacked?

MrJones1973

I can see clear reasons for abandoning action.

Firstly-a lot of cash on table
Secondly-we know Pay equality not going to happen on our own
LR 2 around the corner
The Bulk of JC will come through but perhaps without teacher assessment
Croke park hours are here to stay in some shape or form

I dont agree with abandoning the action for reasons I have outlined previously but I think those in favor of this have to be respected. Though they should be open to rational argument

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

I'm done
Nobody can have an opinion on here that is even slightly opposed to hardline union stances it seems without their posts being nitpicked

Dont go Kim. You have a valid point about CIDs. Jumping unions should not happen though-and THE TUI should be rejecting them

However most teachers are not political. Most people are not. They are perhaps not long enough in the game to realize all we have lost. They came out of college with Learning outcomes in their hearts but after five years teaching you realize what a load of bull**** they are. I didnt start to tune into Union affairs until my early 30s. So I do understand how self centred people can be. I was once that Teacher.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

What do you mean in risk of being sacked?

The government have clearly stated that anyone on a cid and in the asti can be sacked if there is no longer a need for their subject or they are in an overquota school. the only "permanent" teachers are PWT contract teachers. All asti cid holders regardless of length of service are now at risk of being informed at the end of august "you're fired!!"

Villain

Of the 53% that voted in last ballot how many % were retired teachers?

SligoBrewer

Villain wrote: »

Of the 53% that voted in last ballot how many % were retired teachers?

Probably minuscule. I'd say they had better things to be doing.

Icsics

Any feedback from CEC today?

The_Valeyard

judeboy101 wrote: »

The government have clearly stated that anyone on a cid and in the asti can be sacked if there is no longer a need for their subject or they are in an overquota school. the only "permanent" teachers are PWT contract teachers. All asti cid holders regardless of length of service are now at risk of being informed at the end of august "you're fired!!"

If the govt. actually went ahead and tried that, you would have a complete all out strike.

mtoutlemonde

judeboy101 wrote: »

The government have clearly stated that anyone on a cid and in the asti can be sacked if there is no longer a need for their subject or they are in an overquota school. the only "permanent" teachers are PWT contract teachers. All asti cid holders regardless of length of service are now at risk of being informed at the end of august "you're fired!!"

This was in the news yesterday (Sorry it's an indo link )

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/asti-calls-off-ballot-after-department-confirms-no-threat-of-redundancy-to-secondary-teachers-this-summer-35684205.html

Does that not mean that there will no teachers made redundant this year as that is my reading of it?

ccazza

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

This was in the news yesterday (Sorry it's an indo link )

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/asti-calls-off-ballot-after-department-confirms-no-threat-of-redundancy-to-secondary-teachers-this-summer-35684205.html

Does that not mean that there will no teachers made redundant this year as that is my reading of it?

This is why they are no longer balloting on strike action over redundancies as the dept has confirmed there will be no redundancies this year.

acequion

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If the govt. actually went ahead and tried that, you would have a complete all out strike.

Wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I can see clear reasons for abandoning action.

Firstly-a lot of cash on table
Secondly-we know Pay equality not going to happen on our own
LR 2 around the corner
The Bulk of JC will come through but perhaps without teacher assessment
Croke park hours are here to stay in some shape or form

I dont agree with abandoning the action for reasons I have outlined previously but I think those in favor of this have to be respected. Though they should be open to rational argument

No way are they clear reasons for abandoning action!

"Firstly a lot of cash on the table". What cash? There are many who think that even if we put our hands up and say "sorry" at this stage [if we were that idiotic] that the Govt would tell us where to go re cash back. Remember that we were told that the last ballot was our last chance to get back pay. So That leaves:
CP2 "Around the corner" as you say and you're right. And there's a serious chance at this stage that even if we don't abandon action before then,ASTI will scamper for cover here voting for it big time,terrified after being left out to pasture for so long. But "a lot" of cash on offer?? A few bob would be more like it. We're a long,long way from the infamous days of the ATM for teachers,though those of us around then know full well that that was huge exaggeration. But even that will be huge compared to the paltry few bob drip fed back with big demands over the next few years.

And back to "around the corner"and I agree it's that close. So why on earth lose our nerve now when we've got this far? Surely we've a stronger hand holding the line than wetting our, well you all know what!

"Pay equality. Not going to happen on our own" You've a point,but we were the ones who went out on a limb over this. So,do we just give in now? When other unions are actually waking up to it. Which brings me to:
"Croke Park hours are here to stay" We've just done a whole year without them,proving beyond doubt that they add NOTHING to the education sector in the way of "reform" Other unions are also waking up to this. So should we backtrack on this too now?

Grow a pair guys!! I see loads of ye who complained big time back in the days when the ASTI didn't do enough and we couldn't trust our top table, now complain that they're doing too much!! It's hard to fathom. You cannot have it both ways. You're either in these agreements for better or for worse or ye're outside them,also for better or for worse. Make up yer minds!

judeboy101

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

This was in the news yesterday (Sorry it's an indo link )

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/asti-calls-off-ballot-after-department-confirms-no-threat-of-redundancy-to-secondary-teachers-this-summer-35684205.html

Does that not mean that there will no teachers made redundant this year as that is my reading of it?

My reading is its a joint fudge between Asti hq, jmb and dept to diffuse the situation. All 3knew it was red line issue for both our union and wider trade union (esp after what happened with bus eirean). I have funny feeling the 11 or 12 teachers who would actually have been sacked were "accommodated" to make it look like no one was in any danger.