Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

MrJones1973

I think the motion will probably be defeated . Votes at CEC-hands up affair-presume this is same. Vote might be different if in private ie Very few people said they voted FF but yet most of my life they got 40%.

It will be a close vote. I hope to know by weekend if Im going (get to go)

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think the motion will probably be defeated . Votes at CEC-hands up affair-presume this is same. Vote might be different if in private ie Very few people said they voted FF but yet most of my life they got 40%.

It will be a close vote. I hope to know by weekend if Im going (get to go)

It will be close but it will very much depend on the ilk of the people going. This faction are very determined so they will do their utmost to have loads of young teachers there due a CID, plus others of like mind. Basically they are using the CID people here for their own ends and there is no guarantee they'd even get the CIDs if we did stand down our action. The gov have made it very clear that there will be no retrospection, so I'm not sure what would happen with the Ward report,it hasn't been clarified.

Another thing to remember is the timing. There was war over the 10th June date and loads of efforts made to have the convention at the end of May. The fact is that a lot of people,including CEC members had already booked holidays, so will miss it and it's guesswork whether those are mainly for or against people. Also the progress of the pay talks should also influence things.

Keep going to the branch meetings so you get to have a say in who represents your branch!

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

It will be close but it will very much depend on the ilk of the people going. This faction are very determined so they will do their utmost to have loads of young teachers there due a CID, plus others of like mind. Basically they are using the CID people here for their own ends and there is no guarantee they'd even get the CIDs if we did stand down our action. The gov have made it very clear that there will be no retrospection, so I'm not sure what would happen with the Ward report,it hasn't been clarified.

Another thing to remember is the timing. There was war over the 10th June date and loads of efforts made to have the convention at the end of May. The fact is that a lot of people,including CEC members had already booked holidays, so will miss it and it's guesswork whether those are mainly for or against people. Also the progress of the pay talks should also influence things.

Keep going to the branch meetings so you get to have a say in who represents your branch!

i posted earlier about the wording of the motion at special convention, can we actually be made to vote on standing down action, pending the outcome of talks, if the talks are finished. by my understanding the motion is moot if the talks are finished?

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

i posted earlier about the wording of the motion at special convention, can we actually be made to vote on standing down action, pending the outcome of talks, if the talks are finished. by my understanding the motion is moot if the talks are finished?

Very good point.

Mekekka

dory wrote: »

Yea, they could have. I guess no one was in the office after 6. Ed was at a retirement do in Cork and popped into the branch meeting for a chat. Have to say, he was good and made a lot of sense. I realised how ignorant I'd been of the whole thing. It's so easy to sit in the staffroom saying "They're doing nothing" etc. But then you go, and you listen, and realise every advance has been because of ASTI pushing, and they're taking all the slack for it. At the end of the day they're only implementing the will of their members. They can't help that the government won't give an inch.

.

Seems we are part of the same branch! Found him very no nonsense as well, in fairness when questioned he didn't give any bull**** answers, he wasn't promising anything that they genuinely couldn't deliver but was laying things out as they stood, and said they are genuinely doing what they can but if there's no movement back from the Gov you can only go so far.

jayo76

Our Branch met Tuesday evening and were very strongly in opposition to the motion, all delegates will vote against it. A very good discussion took place with genuine sympathy for those due CID's ans the need for the ASTI to do more to support these teachers. There was a lot of anger however at the notion been put about by supporters of the motion that it is the ASTI who has put these teachers in this position, it is Government intransigence which has put these teachers in that position. A teacher due a CID spoke very well to make this point and was very clear that they do not want this motion passed in their name.

The more I think about it the more bewildered I would become with the people proposing this motion and those so vigorously supporting it in the social media domain. The inconsistencies in their stance are unbelievable, some of the most vocal champions of this motion claim to be those who most strongly sought in the past to fight against unequal pay scales, yet here they are proposing we suspend all action and return back to the very agreements that enshrine unequal pay.

Other big supporters of the motion were very vocal from the podium at convention on the need for unity in the ASTI and getting the message out there that we all are fighting for the same thing yet here they are supporting a motion which is causing nothing but disunity. Also for those who have been at previous conventions they will remember that just last year one of the proposers of this motion spoke very strongly on the evils of the Croke Park Hours, describing them as detention hours which sapped the morale of teachers yet here he is calling for a stand down which will overturn the democratic ballot to withdraw from those hours.

Other people very strongly supporting this motion now are among those who at an ASTI conference on Junior Cycle opposition just over 12 months ago spoke very strongly and well I may add on the problems with the Junior Cert reform.

It would seem to me that all these people have now lost the conviction of their beliefs in regard to all these issues, their issue been well the Government are not going to give us anything so lets just cave and give in. For me if beliefs are worth anything they have to be stood by, and yes of course I do accept that negotiation is inevitable and we too would have to give, our Government does not seem to believe however in two-way negotiation. Standing down industrial action will just further fuel government determination to maintain this position. I genuinely hope this motion does not succeed.

Mekekka

jayo76 wrote: »

A teacher due a CID spoke very well to make this point and was very clear that they do not want this motion passed in their name.

I've said the exact same! It bothers me that my plight and those in similar situations is being used by these people to further their own agenda; they do not care about CIDs but know it's a topic which has traction at the moment and will get them attention and *some* support.

It's been said by one of my colleagues since this new motion was touted that those proposing it have absolutely no evidence that if the union stands down we will get what benefits they seem to think we will. The motion says we will suspend Ind Action IF we get treated equally, no way will that happen which then would mean that we are back to square one, possibly back in Ind Action after briefly standing down or at least suggesting to (over the summer when it's inconsequential anyway) to see will we get all of these supposed benefits back and when that doesn't happen, back at it come September (as that technically is what the motion is suggesting) Flip flopping all over the place.

acequion

Good to hear that branches are sending the right people. Most of the crowd going from my branch are also very much opposed to this motion,mainly because they're horrified that a small summer convention could make a crucial decision that would affect all 17-18.000 of us. Many of them have never before gone to a union convention but they feel very strongly about this. I find that heartening.

However those of us on here are only a tiny number so we don't know how it's going in every branch. But fingers crossed.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Good to hear that branches are sending the right people. Most of the crowd going from my branch are also very much opposed to this motion,mainly because they're horrified that a small summer convention could make a crucial decision that would affect all 17-18.000 of us. Many of them have never before gone to a union convention but they feel very strongly about this. I find that heartening.

However those of us on here are only a tiny number so we don't know how it's going in every branch. But fingers crossed.

i too am hoping to go if i don't get the nod as a delegate ill be there with a placard and 30 pieces of silver

Mekekka

I'm going to be there too anyway

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

i too am hoping to go if i don't get the nod as a delegate ill be there with a placard and 30 pieces of silver

Why wouldn't you be able to go judeboy101? Is it that loads want to go in your branch and there's a queue? In my branch there was nobody queuing up and while we filled our allocation, a few people had to be persuaded. Like I said earlier, a good few wanted to go as they're angry but there were still a fair few vacancies to fill. While we got them filled there's no guarantee people won't change their mind.

Another problem is that a lot of people will be away. At least four of the usual delegates from our branch have already booked holidays abroad. Early June is a popular time for teachers to head abroad. It's good value as most of Europe isn't yet on holidays and for the same reason you avoid the July /August hordes.The burning question though is if that cohort of delegates would be more likely to vote for or against! In my branch they would be against,but thankfully they will be replaced by people who are also against.

Really hope you get going judeboy101 and hope you go up and speak. You sound interesting and colourful. Very much needed in these bland,bureaucratic times!

MrJones1973

New pay talks about to begin-Yes? New pay deal will be put to members when finished-which should happen in a couple of weeks-Yes? (talks conclude-ballot to follow September?)Then what exactly is point of this special convention??

All i can see is that by getting this motion over line-ASTi de facto agrees to new deal as we would clearly mark our yellow strips.

joebloggs32

Bottom line for all teacher unions in new pay deal will be pay equality. Problem is that we are the leading sector in the public service with regard to new entrants due to embargos on recruitment over the last decade. Some unions literally have a handful of new entrants.
The government won't want to go into sectoral deals if they can avoid it, so the big challenge is to convince the other public sector unions to back pay equality. If they row in it should happen.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Bottom line for all teacher unions in new pay deal will be pay equality. Problem is that we are the leading sector in the public service with regard to new entrants due to embargos on recruitment over the last decade. Some unions literally have a handful of new entrants.
The government won't want to go into sectoral deals if they can avoid it, so the big challenge is to convince the other public sector unions to back pay equality. If they row in it should happen.

All well and good and of course we all want pay equality, but what about the CP hours? We were all bullied into them back in 2011,told the IMF were in town, we had our jobs, so to basically shut up and put up and we did. But it beggars belief that in a growth economy,the fastest in the EU,that unions will actually swallow Donoghue's line that the hours are here to stay!

Now I know that you guys in the TUI have put on the brave face and got on with those hours, but let's not kid ourselves that they are widely resented by PS workers in general and by teachers in particular. They are basically morale zappers and morale is at an all time low after years of cuts.

So surely, at the very least, unions will be looking for a reduction in those extra hours! I've always maintained that, at worst, teachers could live with P/T and staff meetings after school, but line under that please!

All remains to be seen, but if unions aren't prepared to fight now when times are good, they really may as well disband.

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

All well and good and of course we all want pay equality, but what about the CP hours? We were all bullied into them back in 2011,told the IMF were in town, we had our jobs, so to basically shut up and put up and we did. But it beggars belief that in a growth economy,the fastest in the EU,that unions will actually swallow Donoghue's line that the hours are here to stay!

Now I know that you guys in the TUI have put on the brave face and got on with those hours, but let's not kid ourselves that they are widely resented by PS workers in general and by teachers in particular. They are basically morale zappers and morale is at an all time low after years of cuts.

So surely, at the very least, unions will be looking for a reduction in those extra hours! I've always maintained that, at worst, teachers could live with P/T and staff meetings after school, but line under that please!

All remains to be seen, but if unions aren't prepared to fight now when times are good, they really may as well disband.

Well if they offer pay equality but must keep CP hours to get it I will vote for it. New teachers have a crap career average pension to go with with terrible pay. They need to start earning.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Well if they offer pay equality but must keep CP hours to get it I will vote for it. New teachers have a crap career average pension to go with with terrible pay. They need to start earning.

You might but not everyone will. At the end of the day self interest will prevail as it always does and those hours are hugely resented as people feel they have given enough and are burnt out. It would not be smart of the unions to assume that workers can be bought off with a few extra bob and even pay equality.

MrJones1973

I dont see Croke Park hours going but I cant see why they cant be altered. ie each teacher agrees to do x amount of hours which he or she is accountable to Principal. Collegiality varies greatly in schools-forcing people to sit down once in a blue moon to write a subject plan is pure tripe. They should be allowed communicate via e mail or other such modern mediums. Or meet when it suits them. Its the same backward thinking that asks students to write Personal letters on a LC English paper-has nobody told them that nobody writes personal letters anymore??!

doc_17

If pay equality in exchange for CP hours was offered, I believe it would sail through.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

If pay equality in exchange for CP hours was offered, I believe it would sail through.

Very much doubt it. You assume people are very noble,they're not. Don't forget that pay equality only affects the post 2011 cohort. The greater majority of serving teachers are pre 2011. They will put their own interests first. It's human nature.

joebloggs32

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I dont see Croke Park hours going but I cant see why they cant be altered. ie each teacher agrees to do x amount of hours which he or she is accountable to Principal. Collegiality varies greatly in schools-forcing people to sit down once in a blue moon to write a subject plan is pure tripe. They should be allowed communicate via e mail or other such modern mediums. Or meet when it suits them. Its the same backward thinking that asks students to write Personal letters on a LC English paper-has nobody told them that nobody writes personal letters anymore??!

If you account for the 10 personal hours now in, along with parent teacher meetings, an open night and maybe one day before the start of the school year, you're well on the way to 33 hours.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Very much doubt it. You assume people are very noble,they're not. Don't forget that pay equality only affects the post 2011 cohort. The greater majority of serving teachers are pre 2011. They will put their own interests first. It's human nature.

Personal, me arse. We have all heard of schools where this is abused by management and tui do nothing about it.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

Personal, me arse. We have all heard of schools where this is abused by management and tui do nothing about it.

What is abused?

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If you account for the 10 personal hours now in, along with parent teacher meetings, an open night and maybe one day before the start of the school year, you're well on the way to 33 hours.

Have you guys in TUI no backbone! The Tiger is starting to roar again,next we'll be hearing again how the country is "awash with money", but our pay and conditions have been utterly savaged and here you are defending those godawful hours!! I don't do the open nights as I'm generally too busy prepping and correcting! Not to mention the myriad of hours that we all put in in a job with an ever increasing workload! Those official CP hours are punitive, demeaning and utterly unproductive and now is the time to have them scrapped! As I've said on numerous occasions,staff and P/T meetings after school,ok but then feck off! We'll still do tons of hours over and above but on our own terms as was always the case.

I will be gobsmacked if unions expect their members to suck them up for life and even more gobsmacked if the eejit members agree to that.

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

Have you guys in TUI no backbone! The Tiger is starting to roar again,next we'll be hearing again how the country is "awash with money", but our pay and conditions have been utterly savaged and here you are defending those godawful hours!! I don't do the open nights as I'm generally too busy prepping and correcting! Not to mention the myriad of hours that we all put in in a job with an ever increasing workload! Those official CP hours are punitive, demeaning and utterly unproductive and now is the time to have them scrapped! As I've said on numerous occasions,staff and P/T meetings after school,ok but then feck off! We'll still do tons of hours over and above but on our own terms as was always the case.

I will be gobsmacked if unions expect their members to suck them up for life and even more gobsmacked if the eejit members agree to that.

Never said I liked them, but if they were scrapped we wouldn't get all 33 back anyway. Department will want to cling on at least to what you outlined.
So we might have to suck it up and get on with doing them to secure pay equality.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

What is abused?

The discretionary aspect of the 33hrs, I know of many teachers in tui schools who approached management wanting to to xyz with some of these hrs only to be told no, they have to be of the schools prescribed list etc

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Never said I liked them, but if they were scrapped we wouldn't get all 33 back anyway. Department will want to cling on at least to what you outlined.
So we might have to suck it up and get on with doing them to secure pay equality.

Look ye're all business about pay equality now,but we are the ones who actually went out on strike and lost pay for that cause. Now personally I would do those hours in return for pay equality as I think the pay apartheid is a blight on the profession and utterly unjust. Also I'm a union activist and I believe in our campaigns.

But I don't have a ton of years left to serve unlike younger collegues, so a teacher with 20 or so years still ahead,neither involved in or particularly impressed with the union, isn't going to have pay equality as a top priority.

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

Look ye're all business about pay equality now,but we are the ones who actually went out on strike and lost pay for that cause. Now personally I would do those hours in return for pay equality as I think the pay apartheid is a blight on the profession and utterly unjust. Also I'm a union activist and I believe in our campaigns.

But I don't have a ton of years left to serve unlike younger collegues, so a teacher with 20 or so years still ahead,neither involved in or particularly impressed with the union, isn't going to have pay equality as a top priority.

I think you will find the TUI took up the cause before the Asti. We had a ballot and strike ready in february 2016 which opened negotiations. Asti went out in November. It is just that the TUI took a different strategy to secure partial restoration when it was offered.
The younger teachers will never forgive any of us if the next deal does not map out a return to equality.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I think you will find the TUI took up the cause before the Asti. We had a ballot and strike ready in february 2016 which opened negotiations. Asti went out in November. It is just that the TUI took a different strategy to secure partial restoration when it was offered.
The younger teachers will never forgive any of us if the next deal does not map out a return to equality.

Yes but ye didn't actually go out and strike. So I very much doubt that opened any negotiations.

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

Yes but ye didn't actually go out and strike. So I very much doubt that opened any negotiations.

I don't know what parallel universe you are operating in. Where do you think last Septembers deal came from for new entrants pay?. You are sounding like Trump now.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I don't know what parallel universe you are operating in. Where do you think last Septembers deal came from for new entrants pay?. You are sounding like Trump now.

Where that came from was The ASTI's announcement of strike days to begin in October. Strategic timing to take the wind out of our sails and also the fact that there was a union outside the LRA who were prepared to confront the issue head on. You are deluded if you think otherwise and I'm laughing at being compared to Trump.