Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

MrJones1973

ethical wrote: »

I reckon we are "broken" at this stage.Remember Paschal Donohue will be running two depts in Leos new Ireland,according to the media,that of Finance and his old portfolio of social Protection (some protection,I say!). Same man said pre the new talks that there will be no equalisation of pay.The Government are hell bent on keeping the two tier system,the longer they continue with this the less it will become.Remember the recent survey being talked about here re "not many teachers being over 45 yrs of age".I think this group can be pensioned off early,remember also they are on the higher salary scale,get rid of as many of them as possible and you have just the new lower scale teachers left! As I said previously its a joke on behalf of the various Teacher Unions "promoting -no redundancies",I know many teachers who would gladly take a redundancy package now ,if offered,especially the over 50 year olds.And with the onset of the new Junior Cert. there will be fewer teachers required as some staple subjects of yester year will now become optional.The numberof students taking History ,geography and( expect Irish ) will dwindle and hence less teachers will be required.The easiest way of getting rid of over quota staff will be to pension them off!

I think sadly long term you are correct. I really wish members could be given a ballot which outlined strategy ie prolonged strike or alternatives Give members the option. Give me hope Joanna. Give me hope. No, Im not saying our fight is the same as Apartheid but you get my drift.

Sir123

I'm just hoping the special convention for joining lansdowne road is rejected on Saturday. I would be in favour of strike action in September/October in which I hope the TUI would have joined the strike bandwagon. A question there, are the TUI allowed to ballot for strike action in October if they are part of LRA?

judeboy101

Sir123 wrote: »

I'm just hoping the special convention for joining lansdowne road is rejected on Saturday. I would be in favour of strike action in September/October in which I hope the TUI would have joined the strike bandwagon. A question there, are the TUI allowed to ballot for strike action in October if they are part of LRA?

Tui won't strike despite saying they would if equal pay not in new agreement. A strike means they are outside lra and get hit by fempi. It's too cosy to sit by the masters table and accept the scraps.

MrJones1973

judeboy101 wrote: »

Tui won't strike despite saying they would if equal pay not in new agreement. A strike means they are outside lra and get hit by fempi. It's too cosy to sit by the masters table and accept the scraps.

I think scraps is a bit harsh when most members are down a couple of grand. I would like nothing more than a prolonged strike but I see no movement towards that and thus it has to be asked what is the alternative? Because a prolonged strike is to my mind the only thing that would shake the government. Im still inclined to reject this motion next sat but with declining conviction.

2011abc

Pascal Donoghue Minister for Finance AND Social Protection?! Oh God !If there's a more annoying voice in Irish politics I haven't heard it .Insufferable man .

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think scraps is a bit harsh when most members are down a couple of grand. I would like nothing more than a prolonged strike but I see no movement towards that and thus it has to be asked what is the alternative? Because a prolonged strike is to my mind the only thing that would shake the government. Im still inclined to reject this motion next sat but with declining conviction.

At our branch meeting there was a bus loads of members I've never seen before, all got voted onto delegation all "yes-men". I'm still going to try protest outside the citywest venue, remind everyone no means no.

Sir123

judeboy101 wrote: »

At our branch meeting there was a bus loads of members I've never seen before, all got voted onto delegation all "yes-men". I'm still going to try protest outside the citywest venue, remind everyone no means no.

Exactly. No means no. We are working for a greedy government that sees no problem with inequality. There needs to be a commitment to restore post 2011 entrants to a common basic salary scale. We know the government have the money for this, despite the fiscal space for 2018. This two tiered salary is only happening in Ireland out of all the 28 member states. It cannot continue, end of.

MrJones1973

I agree with you above-but how exactly do you see this being achieved?

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I agree with you above-but how exactly do you see this being achieved?

Show every parent in the country the tick the boxes Shakespeare Question in the junior higher paper

Sir123

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I agree with you above-but how exactly do you see this being achieved?

This is the thing. As we are the only public sector union outside LRA it is more difficult. I think this is the reason why the ASTI is now split 50:50, possible even 55:45 towards LRA now.

I feel that TUI and INTO need to overwhelmingly reject the next pay deal and start strike action immediately. They have left it go too long, they are getting nowhere with LPTs and ASTI's campaign has suffered as a result.

I feel striking on LPTs and the JC is adequate and should continue. The problem is we are divided and teachers, especially in dual union schools, are seeing others get paid for s&s and we are not.
Unfortunately I think striking is the only way to go and I hope Saturday turns out re-affirming the democratic Asti decision to not join LRA in two ballots. Times are tough but we must stand for what we believe in. We cannot join LRA now and then reject subsequent pay agreements. We would be a laughing stock.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

Show every parent in the country the tick the boxes Shakespeare Question in the junior higher paper

Most parents won't really care... unless their child is doing the junior cert ... then again they might be delighted if their child is getting a guaranteed A.

evolving_doors

Sir123 wrote: »

This is the thing. As we are the only public sector union outside LRA it is more difficult. I think this is the reason why the ASTI is now split 50:50, possible even 55:45 towards LRA now.

I feel that TUI and INTO need to overwhelmingly reject the next pay deal and start strike action immediately. They have left it go too long, they are getting nowhere with LPTs and ASTI's campaign has suffered as a result.

I feel striking on LPTs and the JC is adequate and should continue. The problem is we are divided and teachers, especially in dual union schools, are seeing others get paid for s&s and we are not.
Unfortunately I think striking is the only way to go and I hope Saturday turns out re-affirming the democratic Asti decision to not join LRA in two ballots. Times are tough but we must stand for what we believe in. We cannot join LRA now and then reject subsequent pay agreements. We would be a laughing stock.

I bet you'll see the talks strung out well after the summer ...
keeps ASTI out and continuing to have internal splits. The govt will be saving a fortune meantime.
TUI and INTO will be sabre rattling in the meantime knowing full well their members will accept any offer going.
The more they get (however little) the further isolated the ASTI will be.

The Dept. have tonnes of time on their hands. It's simply a matter of repeating the mantra of not recognising dissent from anyone outside LR (anyone not willing to go all the way on a strike that is!).

gavwaldo

Every union is now feeling the pain of shafting the post 2013 cohort. Since these poor feckers are on average lifetime wage pensions the government is emboldened enough to use this as a full and real for extra pension contribution from everyone else. If we get away without transferring over our pension levy to an increased pension contribution then the upshot will certainly be less wage restoration. Therefor shaft the incoming generation = eventually shaft yourself.

MrJones1973

We have no clear fact on what new entrants think do we ? No poll ? Many have jumped ship to get CID so you can assume they were yes voters ?
They might be inclined to screw us old timers in the future but I don't see any coherent voice on what the new teachers want ?
I think we all know next deal will pass so exactly what are we achieving by staying out of LR ? Now ?

man_no_plan

Sir123 wrote: »

This is the thing. As we are the only public sector union outside LRA it is more difficult. I think this is the reason why the ASTI is now split 50:50, possible even 55:45 towards LRA now.

I feel that TUI and INTO need to overwhelmingly reject the next pay deal and start strike action immediately. They have left it go too long, they are getting nowhere with LPTs and ASTI's campaign has suffered as a result.

I feel striking on LPTs and the JC is adequate and should continue. The problem is we are divided and teachers, especially in dual union schools, are seeing others get paid for s&s and we are not.
Unfortunately I think striking is the only way to go and I hope Saturday turns out re-affirming the democratic Asti decision to not join LRA in two ballots. Times are tough but we must stand for what we believe in. We cannot join LRA now and then reject subsequent pay agreements. We would be a laughing stock.

I think you need to forget the JC and then there's a hope of union cooperation on pay equalisation.

SligoBrewer

For the record, the ASTI never shafted new entrants. That is an utter myth.

acequion

Am following this thread from outside the country and most unfortunately will miss the special convention next Sat.
Most posts inspire either a curse or a thanks but your latest posts,Mr White would hugely concern me! In addition to the posters thanking you, posters who in the past lambasted our union for not standing up to the Govt, but who have now changed tack because their main concern is their pockets!
What are we achieving by staying out of LR? Let's put that in reverse,what would we achieve in LR? We would achieve our own money drip fed back dependent on whatever the employer wants. And not great money by any means. A few bob when you take out the tax. Those of us around long enough will remember the huge difference in our pockets between pay rises [coppers,though always nice to get] and pay cuts [big chunks of  €20-50 per week] Though the latter was totally normalised in the recession. Giving them license to do basically want they want since. 
So anybody wanting into LRA just wants those coppers. Fair enough I understand. But in agreeing to it you sell out your younger collegues for good because you tacitly agree with pay apartheid. You also agree to declining educational standards which we all know is the new JC. And people will say it's in. But it's not. Loads of teachers in ASTI schools don't even know what SLAR means. So is it in?
As for TUI. Don't under estimate them them! Their ratio of pro /con agreement is very similar to ours. TUI grassroots have been very active against LRA and had a huge hand in the pro strike ballot at their covention.
Could we be looking at a changing of the guard?  ASTI voting into the next agreement andf TUI voting out? It wouldn't surprise me. In any case the poeple who called this convention are a bunch of opportunists looking out for themselves. Don't let us down,Mr White. Please!

judeboy101

No need to suspend action we have a deal

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0608/881075-pay-deal/

clunked

I presume the INTO and TUI will huff and puff and then urge their membership to sign up as there is no better deal because of the government just keeping Siptu and Impact happy. No movement on Croke Park hours either.

Nellieelephant

judeboy101 wrote: »

No need to suspend action we have a deal

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0608/881075-pay-deal/

Can I have my Saturday back? #whatisthepoint

judeboy101

clunked wrote: »

I presume the INTO and TUI will huff and puff and then urge their membership to sign up as there is no better deal because of the government just keeping Siptu and Impact happy. No movement on Croke Park hours either.

100% this

mirrorwall14

Do SIPTU and Impact not have new members? This is a real kick in the teeth for them

judeboy101

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Do SIPTU and Impact not have new members? This is a real kick in the teeth for them

They'll spin fact new entrants get higher pay increase as the carrot

Sir123

Nellieelephant wrote: »

Can I have my Saturday back? #whatisthepoint

Yes get rid of Saturday at this stage. Disappointed with this 'draft' deal. I hope the TUI and INTO can truly see who we are dealing with now. 'Wake up, little Susie, wake up'

SligoBrewer

Imagine if via the proxy of a special convention, we accepted LRA1 at this stage. Embarrassing.

Sir123

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Imagine if via the proxy of a special convention, we accepted LRA1 at this stage. Embarrassing.

Absolutely embarrassing is right. Am I correct in saying a 2/3 majority is needed for it to pass?

judeboy101

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Imagine if via the proxy of a special convention, we accepted LRA1 at this stage. Embarrassing.

Its like turning up for the debs after it finishes

acequion

High time for the other unions to come to their senses and tell the Govt where to go with their agreements! All this negative talk about having no other option etc etc just has to stop and workers must stand up for themselves. I think its beggars belief that this is even happening in a growth economy. No wonder young nurses and doctors are emigrating!
Absolutely vital now that this special convention be defeated!

Alqua

Paschal Donohoe not-answering questions on RTE1 Drivetime just there. They're having someone from TUI on later...

Could the special convention be cancelled at this late stage? Could it be argued that the situation has changed with the talks?

MrJones1973

I presume offer to backdate LR will not apply if we don't go in LR first ? Ie if we wait until new pay deal nothing backdated. Im keeping an open mind. Im thinking of voting yes for the simple fact that members won't strike. That reality is not being acknowledgled here. Without a strike how do you see pay equality being achieved??
Im not fully convinced to vote yes but I really don't see either union having a decent plan