Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

judeboy101

Alqua wrote: »

Paschal Donohoe not-answering questions on RTE1 Drivetime just there. They're having someone from TUI on later...

Could the special convention be cancelled at this late stage? Could it be argued that the situation has changed with the talks?

Convention has to go ahead but the motion they are debating is moot as talks have concluded.

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I presume offer to backdate LR will not apply if we don't go in LR first ? Ie if we wait until new pay deal nothing backdated. Im keeping an open mind. Im thinking of voting yes for the simple fact that members won't strike. That reality is not being acknowledgled here. Without a strike how do you see pay equality being achieved??
Im not fully convinced to vote yes but I really don't see either union having a decent plan

I'm happy with my current pay, non engagement in JC crap and lack of extra hrs at the moment. Pay equality isn't the make or break issue for many.

acequion

judeboy101 wrote: »

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I presume offer to backdate LR will not apply if we don't go in LR first ? Ie if we wait until new pay deal nothing backdated. Im keeping an open mind. Im thinking of voting yes for the simple fact that members won't strike. That reality is not being acknowledgled here. Without a strike how do you see pay equality being achieved??
Im not fully convinced to vote yes but I really don't see either union having a decent plan

I'm happy with my current pay, non engagement in JC crap and lack of extra hrs at the moment. Pay equality isn't the make or break issue for many.

Completely agree. I'd far rather have a bit less and less crap in my life. Id have to be tortured before I'd vote yes to voluntarily worsen my pay and conditions and to have younger teachers saying in years to come that we sold them out twice. Because voting yes to this so called deal is giving up the fight on pay equality. As well as a complete cave in on the JC.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I presume offer to backdate LR will not apply if we don't go in LR first ? Ie if we wait until new pay deal nothing backdated. Im keeping an open mind. Im thinking of voting yes for the simple fact that members won't strike. That reality is not being acknowledgled here. Without a strike how do you see pay equality being achieved??
Im not fully convinced to vote yes but I really don't see either union having a decent plan

Not having what you call a "decent plan" is not a reason to sell out. Anyway, how do you know people won't strike? If both INTO and TUI are prepared to strike,do you really think ASTI members won't follow suit? ASTI members might be battle weary but a lot of them are still committed to their principles. They're not all throwing in the towel!
Also, I can see quite a number of unions voting No this time.

MrJones1973

Can you really have faith in TUI or INTO ? The yellow stripe is clearer in those unions than ours

deiseindublin

I'm pleasantly surprised by TUI statement. There is light at the end of the tunnel..... maybe.

‘While acknowledging the general pay restoration measures set out in the draft proposal, ending the unacceptable and inequitable two-tier pay system was the key priority for us on entering these negotiations. Wherever possible, we pushed the issue forward during the process,’ she said.

‘It remains completely unacceptable to us that two colleagues, recruited within days of one another, are paid significantly different rates for carrying out the same work. TUI has prioritised and campaigned on this issue and some progress has been made. However, the draft proposed agreement now before us would have the effect of preventing further progress for at least three years. At a time when schools are struggling to attract teachers for an increasing number of subjects due to more lucrative options in other employments, the process of full pay equalisation requires urgent acceleration, not delay.’

‘Regrettably, the draft agreement’s provision that new entrant pay be examined over a twelve month period in 2018, with application of any outcome no sooner than 2021 is wholly inadequate.’

‘Our Executive Committee will meet later this evening to discuss the draft agreement.’

http://www.tui.ie/press-releases/tui-expresses-%E2%80%98extreme-disappointment%E2%80%99-that-draft-agreement-does-not-adequately-and-fairly-address-new-entrant-pay.10899.html

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm pleasantly surprised by TUI statement. There is light at the end of the tunnel..... maybe.



http://www.tui.ie/press-releases/tui-expresses-%E2%80%98extreme-disappointment%E2%80%99-that-draft-agreement-does-not-adequately-and-fairly-address-new-entrant-pay.10899.html

Just empty words, I'll believe her when she leads her union out to suffer the pain we have.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just empty words, I'll believe her when she leads her union out to suffer the pain we have.

Get over yourself like a good man.

The complete lack of any attempt of pay equalisation is a disaster. I don't think it was on the radar of most other unions as there were so few new entrants due to the moratorium on recruitment. By the time there are significant numbers in impact etc o would say the govt will weasel out by saying it would cost too much.

Presumably if we stay outside of this agreement we would maintain the LRA benefits and forego the upcoming increases.

There should be huge scope for cooperation on this at this stage.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

Get over yourself like a good man.

The complete lack of any attempt of pay equalisation is a disaster. I don't think it was on the radar of most other unions as there were so few new entrants due to the moratorium on recruitment. By the time there are significant numbers in impact etc o would say the govt will weasel out by saying it would cost too much.

Presumably if we stay outside of this agreement we would maintain the LRA benefits and forego the upcoming increases.

There should be huge scope for cooperation on this at this stage.

My reading is if you don't sign up to this LRA1 doesn't apply either

SligoBrewer

As far as I can see it, we've made it.

TUI have pretty much came out and said they can't sell this. Infact, they've to ballot on IA over it.
INTO are bound that the cannot recommend a yes vote if it doesn't have full and immediate pay restoration.

It's endgame and the rhetoric from the other teaching unions has changed.

The only people who are choreographing the LRA pompoms are the people who cost the ASTI thousands calling this SC.

MrWhite; voting yes on Saturday is silly. We've called the Government and the other unions out and finally they'll get on board with us.
The talk of a lack of a plan is embarrassing to me. Voting yes is saying that LRA1 was acceptable. Voting yes is saying that 2 tier pay scales is acceptable. Neither of these deals offer me or my LPT colleagues anything worthwhile. Don't let the "Where is the strategy?" cohort fool you. Neither of these are acceptable as they label me as second class. I could never vote Yes on this without feeling guilt to my pits of my stomach.

The ASTI have never accepted 2 tiers and a yes vote on Saturday would be the first time (to my knowledge). Please don't let it happen.

deiseindublin

judeboy101 wrote: »

My reading is if you don't sign up to this LRA1 doesn't apply either

So basically all unions have to agree to anything they ever put forward. It's like Snakes and Ladders, without the ladders.

deiseindublin

TUI rejected.

political analyst

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Imagine if via the proxy of a special convention, we accepted LRA1 at this stage. Embarrassing.

But acceptance could take place only by ballot, couldn't it?

deiseindublin

Anybody listening to Ingrid Miley on news? She sends me over the edge. Her take on it is that although the TUI will be recommending rejection, the members could still accept.

She is so far from an independent reporter it's not funny. She spouts Government propaganda EVERY time.

Mekekka

deiseindublin wrote: »

TUI rejected.

Pleasantly surprised to see this earlier. In relation to Saturday, wonder what will be discussed now seeing as the motion itself is now irrelevant?

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

So basically all unions have to agree to anything they ever put forward. It's like Snakes and Ladders, without the ladders.

They don't have to agree, like we didn't.

deiseindublin

judeboy101 wrote: »

They don't have to agree, like we didn't.

phrased it badly, basically take it or leave it. No negotiations, no discussions. It'd be a lot more efficient use of time if they just emailed the pay deal to relevant unions, why bother with the farce of bringing them to the table?

I wonder, what, if any, improvements the teaching unions actually got in the deal?

judeboy101

deiseindublin wrote: »

phrased it badly, basically take it or leave it. No negotiations, no discussions. It'd be a lot more efficient use of time if they just emailed the pay deal to relevant unions, why bother with the farce of bringing them to the table?

I wonder, what, if any, improvements the teaching unions actually got in the deal?

Optics. In the the best puppet shows you cant see the strings

acequion

SligoBrewer wrote: »

As far as I can see it, we've made it.

TUI have pretty much came out and said they can't sell this. Infact, they've to ballot on IA over it.
INTO are bound that the cannot recommend a yes vote if it doesn't have full and immediate pay restoration.

It's endgame and the rhetoric from the other teaching unions has changed.

The only people who are choreographing the LRA pompoms are the people who cost the ASTI thousands calling this SC.

MrWhite; voting yes on Saturday is silly. We've called the Government and the other unions out and finally they'll get on board with us.
The talk of a lack of a plan is embarrassing to me. Voting yes is saying that LRA1 was acceptable. Voting yes is saying that 2 tier pay scales is acceptable. Neither of these deals offer me or my LPT colleagues anything worthwhile. Don't let the "Where is the strategy?" cohort fool you. Neither of these are acceptable as they label me as second class. I could never vote Yes on this without feeling guilt to my pits of my stomach.

The ASTI have never accepted 2 tiers and a yes vote on Saturday would be the first time (to my knowledge). Please don't let it happen.

Excellent post. Naysayers please take note. Anybody agreeing to this crazy motion on Saturday would want their heads examined.
Also, give TUI a chance. They're also very much invested in pay equalisation and claim credit for the small progress already made. I think members will go with their union on this one and hopefully INTO as well. Imagine all teachers united and determined on this! We'll never get a better opportunity so we must go for it!

doc_17

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Can you really have faith in TUI or INTO ? The yellow stripe is clearer in those unions than ours

Ah here. ASTI just (way) less pragmatic. Their strategy is momumentally flawed. Their approach is gerting them nowhere. Fast. To call TUI cowards is akin to calling the ASTI stupid.

SligoBrewer

You say pragmatic, I say principled.

judeboy101

doc_17 wrote: »

Ah here. ASTI just (way) less pragmatic. Their strategy is momumentally flawed. Their approach is gerting them nowhere. Fast. To call TUI cowards is akin to calling the ASTI stupid.

Tui and into will not strike, they've become too cosy inside their LRA duvet to want to crawl out into the cold. Here's what will happen; lots of huffing, puffing and saber rattling by tui/into followed by early Sept talks, some rearranging of allowances and commission set up chart a path to "a common scale".

MrJones1973

I think we have entered a zone politically where anything is possible. Trump elected. Labour does well in UK. I was wrong about last Asti vote. I have read details of this new deal and still nothing on middle mgt ? I would have taken a deal that gives a considerable increase to new entrants. This new deal sucks
There needs to be a coordinated response from all teaching unions. If that does not happen I will vote yes in September
On Saturday to allow time for this coordination I will vote no

jamesthepeach

The position of strength will be immense if the unions join together. Yesterday's deal didn't.even offer them inflation , even over the next 3 years never mind pay restoration.
I think if someone looked at their pay packets from before lra and what they will be after this latest offer, then apply inflation, they are being robbed. I know I wouldn't stand for it.

All.the unions need to unite.

evolving_doors

As regards the current govt. position on new entrant rebalancing: as long as people are still applying for lower paid employment, and there isn't a shortage of essential frontline staff, then there's no issue to be resolved. This was reported on after the talks.

The only visible exception that would concern politicians/ voters would be health staff ie. nurses and possibly social workers (public have little sympathy for doctors).
They might be saving a token gesture later if nurses threaten strike.

Only way there's any movement is if they further take from senior entrants pensions to give to Junior.

So I think this will rumble on unless theres a united front in all of the education sectors (primary secondary further education 3rd level). Only one education sector taking action will be dealt with by using the usual divide and conquer strategy.

damemcd

Wouldnt be at at all surprised to see The INTOs CEC trying to snake this through , theyve zero backbone and are the governments biggest cronies and yes men in all the Teaching unions........if not in all the ICTU.

MrJones1973

Staying out on our own will not achieve anything
unless we have a prolonged strike. I don't have great faith in other unions. Though they probably look at us and ask exactly what have you gained being outside?
The TUI and INTO could accept this deal. That is a real possibility but I will give them benefit of the doubt . Asti could accept deal too. Don't rule that out After what happened in UK who the hell can predict anything? Best position stick to princples.

man_no_plan

TUI to recommend rejection of proposed public service agreement

evolving_doors

Inevitable really, so I think the next play is:
TUI Sabre rattling -->
govt eventually offer modified proposal (or risk having TUI join ASTI in strike action) -->
Proposal offer takes from 1 group to give to the other -->
Creates further division within the union as it goes to a vote-->

Will TUI opt out of LR2 Late 2017? I don't think so... I think members might look at the 'promised' end game of 2020 and assurances that the govt. will 'look into' pay inequality. With voting these days though who knows.

MrJones1973

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Inevitable really, so I think the next play is:
TUI Sabre rattling -->
govt eventually offer modified proposal (or risk having TUI join ASTI in strike action) -->
Proposal offer takes from 1 group to give to the other -->
Creates further division within the union as it goes to a vote-->

Will TUI opt out of LR2 Late 2017? I don't think so... I think members might look at the 'promised' end game of 2020 and assurances that the govt. will 'look into' pay inequality. With voting these days though who knows.

But where do you see Asti going?