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Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

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    #2222
    maude6868
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭maude6868


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Under LRA2 the opt out will be back one assumes for all (subject to employers needs)

    Somewhere along the line did I read that we can opt out of Croke Park Hours for a fee of course.


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    #2223
    Education matters
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Education matters


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Under LRA2 the opt out will be back one assumes for all (subject to employers needs)

    The opt out is for those with fifteen years service at a minimum. You can opt in if you have 10 years left! The deadline has passed and may be extended but those criteria won't change in my opinion


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    #2224
    Janey B
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Janey B


    Suspending action when TUI & INTO are looking to reject latest offers???? Beyond frustrating!!!Today's action may be within the rules (some clever digging by those who weren't happy with the majority vote) pity they didn't use their skills for the good of all & not their own agendas. However in no way is this action today democratic. So unfair! So wrong! I'm so dejected. I can not stay in ASTI after this, think I'll not be in any union. What is the point????? Do people have principles any more? Me feinism is alive & well!


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    #2225
    Education matters
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Education matters


    maude6868 wrote: »
    Somewhere along the line did I read that we can opt out of Croke Park Hours for a fee of course.

    I believe this is applicable only on other professions i.e. nursing? The CP hours are cost neutral in teaching so you can't really buy out of them. Nurses on the other hand may be offered this deal, pay to opt out of hours you're currently doing for free! Madness!


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    #2226
    PureClareGold
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭PureClareGold


    Will we now get a 40min reduction on our timetables next year in lieu of the work we will be doing outside class contact hours?


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    #2227
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    They defined 'outcome of talks' today as the outcome of a ballot of members on the talks... Am now On the train home after today's convention, absolutely gutted the vote went the way it did but you could tell from the very moment that the two went up to propose and second the motion that the rest of us were fighting a losing battle today, the reaction they got was so resounding. While I am a relatively newly active member (having been a member a few years) it seemed like the troops had been roped up and bussed in to support the motion today (own opinion but that's definitely how it felt)... Voted against it, as did my branch, but it was futile. Grand the dept have promised X Y and Z but no time frame was put on any of this other than it would be "effective immediately" which doesn't actually mean we will get them immediately... I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a big catch in relation to how/when/whether we get what was promised.


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    #2228
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Mekekka wrote: »
    They defined 'outcome of talks' today as the outcome of a ballot of members on the talks... Am now On the train home after today's convention, absolutely gutted the vote went the way it did but you could tell from the very moment that the two went up to propose and second the motion that the rest of us were fighting a losing battle today, the reaction they got was so resounding. While I am a relatively newly active member (having been a member a few years) it seemed like the troops had been roped up and bussed in to support the motion today (own opinion but that's definitely how it felt)... Voted against it, as did my branch, but it was futile. Grand the dept have promised X Y and Z but no time frame was put on any of this other than it would be "effective immediately" which doesn't actually mean we will get them immediately... I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a big catch in relation to how/when/whether we get what was promised.

    What was the % yes/no?


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    #2229
    PureClareGold
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭PureClareGold


    Sir123 wrote: »
    Do you mean to say that we get an increase of 33 hours of extra unpaid rubbish to do starting September? Answer is yes.
    Actually we have a very progressive management team in our school. Our Croke Park hours were always of benefit in relation to planning and collaboration and meant we weren't doing that type of work in our class periods off or at home. Depends on how cooperative staff and management are I guess but I found I was doing more work in KY own time when we didn't have them


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    #2230
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    What was the % yes/no?

    It was 240 for, 121 against and 4 abstentions.


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    #2231
    Janey B
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Janey B


    Mekekka wrote: »
    It was 240 for, 121 against and 4 abstentions.

    So 240 voices undo two DEMOCRATIC votes!!! It's Lisbon again!!!


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    #2232
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    After a week of soul searching I voted yes. In the end pay equality or any reversal of croke park hours or anything you object to - won't be reversed without a strike. Strikes have been proposed several times since November climbdown and been defeated.
    Thus bar saving an hour a week we are costing members thousands a week and have lost 1200 members
    Let's let TUI and INTO take a lead . All members can vote in September and thus we can see view of all members. These members have never indicated they want a strike. Nothing and I repeat nothing will turn this government or any other government bar a strike. A long strike only thing that would rattle lenister house. A long one .


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    #2233
    Janey B
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Janey B


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    After a week of soul searching I voted yes. In the end pay equality or any reversal of croke park hours or anything you object to - won't be reversed without a strike. Strikes have been proposed several times since November climbdown and been defeated.
    Thus bar saving an hour a week we are costing members thousands a week and have lost 1200 members
    Let's let TUI and INTO take a lead . All members can vote in September and thus we can see view of all members. These members have never indicated they want a strike. Nothing and I repeat nothing will turn this government or any other government bar a strike. A long strike only thing that would rattle lenister house. A long one .

    I do agree with you that there isn't any appetite for all out strike. This is partly due to frustration at the backing down so quickly last time, giving way to apathy. Also partly due to those who never wanted strike action from day one but were dragged along in the momentum. However, many members would have been happy to teach away so their students didn't suffer but carry out strike action in the form of work to rule. Thus would have been so powerful and should have been made an option. There are so many of us so deeply dejected by today. As for the members leaving, that was largely those who wanted to get CIDs & some of the yes voters but would have calmed down. Bound to happen with such a small margin in the vote. You should have trusted that there are many of us who did not want to back down, flexibility needs to be there on all sides.


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    #2234
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    So, as the lads asked so often, what is the ****ing strategy now?


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    #2235
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    If the INTO can be persuaded to strike then the sh1t will hit the fan for the government. Its one thing having secondary school students out of school, but if the primarys school kids need to be minded for a few days then the government will get it in the neck from angry parents.


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    #2236
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    After a week of soul searching I voted yes .
    To be fair I think the vast majority had their minds made up today before they went up, and I don't mean that in a bad way at all, just it was clear from the outset there were some for and some against without any debating happening. Topic people felt strongly about!


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    #2237
    Bacchus22
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Bacchus22


    Voted no consistently to HR/LD1 and against this undemocratic change in strategy, and would rather CP hours not come back despite impact on pay, but does the timing of the TUI and INTO rejection votes not change the embarrassment of this capitulation a little? If ASTI members get the benefits of CIDs for new members from the suspension of action, and TUI and INTO reject LR2, and we join them in action, is it not a win of sorts? We get CIDs for new members and at the same time get other unions onside (I know that this is not a given). If they reject we have a stronger voice with their benefits. I thought this was just a debate of a motion? Is this why leadership gave to the voices of 200 or so members of a 17,000 member union? Could pay equality happen more readily with 3 unions onside? That being said, as I type this I'm wondering how on earth can such a small minority change a democratic vote?


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    #2238
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    Bacchus22 wrote: »
    Is it not a win of sorts? We get CIDs for new members and at the same time get other unions onside (I know that this is not a given)?

    What's worrying me is there is no time scale for getting anything back, we are now entitled to it apparently but what if they say oh we will give ye the payments in September... Once the new ballot on LRA 2 is done... Where we may not accept that... And oh! Sorry we don't get the payments now as we didn't sign up to the new agreement... Being cynical I know but...
    Also, the wording of the CID clause on the letter the dept sent out is sketchy too, on one reading it sounds like we are covered under the ward report FROM the date of suspension so does that mean the two qualifying years start now? And that my last two years didn't count? Again a cynical reading but...


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    #2239
    M.Pool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 185 ✭✭M.Pool


    Mekekka wrote: »
    What's worrying me is there is no time scale for getting anything back, we are now entitled to it apparently but what if they say oh we will give ye the payments in September... Once the new ballot on LRA 2 is done... Where we may not accept that... And oh! Sorry we don't get the payments now as we didn't sign up to the new agreement... Being cynical I know but...
    Also, the wording of the CID clause on the letter the dept sent out is sketchy too, on one reading it sounds like we are covered under the ward report FROM the date of suspension so does that mean the two qualifying years start now? And that my last two years didn't count? Again a cynical reading but...


    Do you have a link to the letter from the department you mentioned?


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    #2240
    Bacchus22
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Bacchus22


    Mekekka wrote: »
    What's worrying me is there is no time scale for getting anything back, we are now entitled to it apparently but what if they say oh we will give ye the payments in September... Once the new ballot on LRA 2 is done... Where we may not accept that... And oh! Sorry we don't get the payments now as we didn't sign up to the new agreement... Being cynical I know but...
    Also, the wording of the CID clause on the letter the dept sent out is sketchy too, on one reading it sounds like we are covered under the ward report FROM the date of suspension so does that mean the two qualifying years start now? And that my last two years didn't count? Again a cynical reading but...

    This is from the asti website, one can only hope it's strategy:

    "The ASTI will immediately contact the Department of Education and Skills in order to ensure that the restorations in pay and conditions promised in the event of a suspension of industrial action will be delivered promptly and in full."

    But your point is taken


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    #2241
    Pursefan
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Pursefan


    Gutted. I and thousands of English teachers held the line for the last THREE years,with no in-service and succeeded in preventing SLAR meetings and assessment of our students for certification. And for what?? Can't believe it. What's the point of being in the ASTI anymore. We have been totally let down. Stuff the money!


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    #2242
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    PureClareGold wrote: »
    I'm delighted. We were getting nowhere with current strategy which amounted to nothing. At least now we can get on with trying to improve things from inside the talks as opposed to being outside on our own doing nothing. JC is inane happening. Will we get inservice straight away in Sept?
    The normal hard working teachers voice was heard today, not just the loud left wing anti everything brigade
    PureClareGold wrote: »
    I'm delighted. We were getting nowhere with current strategy which amounted to nothing. At least now we can get on with trying to improve things from inside the talks as opposed to being outside on our own doing nothing. JC is inane happening. Will we get inservice straight away in Sept? 
    The normal hard working teachers voice was heard today, not just the loud left wing anti everything brigade
    Oh get lost would you! You've never had a clue what you were talking about and you claim to represent the "hard working teachers!"  Were you there today? Were you one of the disgraceful loud mouths who hollered and jeered and refused to listen to another point of view? A well organised faction got their way today. When you've been teaching as long as I have and as long as the  many  who were jeered off the podium today by idiots who think they know better, come back then and tell us then if you're delighted with the yellow pack job and inferior education system you're celebrating tonight!


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    #2243
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    M. Pool here is the link to the two letters they sent, it is the one titled 'special convention' http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/update-on-current-issues/

    Bacchus22 I really hope everyone does get the payments etc ASAP now that the vote has gone through but I can't help but feel there will be some catch! I hope I'm wrong though, for the sakes or those who are owed.


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    #2244
    PureClareGold
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭PureClareGold


    acequion wrote: »
    Oh get lost would you! You've never had a clue what you were talking about and you claim to represent the "hard working teachers!"  Were you there today? Were you one of the disgraceful loud mouths who hollered and jeered and refused to listen to another point of view? A well organised faction got their way today. When you've been teaching as long as I have and as long as the  many  who were jeered off the podium today by idiots who think they know better, come back then and tell us then if you're delighted with the yellow pack job and inferior education system you're celebrating tonight!

    Toys being thrown out if your pram moment. Why not organise another special convention if you feel your voice wasn't heard!!
    No strategy. No movement from other side. No willingness to play hardball and go on all out strike. Where were we going. We had to try another way. This is another way.


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    #2245
    doc22
    Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭doc22


    Janey B wrote: »
    So 240 voices undo two DEMOCRATIC votes!!! It's Lisbon again!!!

    So with 1200 leaving the union and 2 to 1 vote today you still think a yes vote would pass across the union?:pac:


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    #2246
    jayo76
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭jayo76


    Today was a sad day for the ASTI, I obviously don't like the result of the vote and the acceptance of the motion but that is something I will get over, what saddens me is the whole atmosphere and conduct of the convention today.

    The people who proposed this motion and the very vocal supporters they had present today genuinely seem to believe only they know best and showed such a condescending attitude in belittling anybody who dared as they see it to disagree with them. People who sought ammendments or spoke against the motion were variously described and often to great applause as saboteurs, paranoid, obstructionists, tricksters, loony left, delusional. I didn't speak today and I was very much against this motion as my posts here make obvious but I genuinely don't see myself as falling into any of the above categories.I do accept that certain terms were then used by opponents of the motion also such as bonkers, cowardly but I do genuinely feel that this was the result of frustration with the tone of many of the speakers they were listening to. The labelling of proposers of one amendment as Obstructionsts and the totally unjustified and over the top attack on emeritus members were in my eyes particularly abhorrent. That people could actually react with a very positive reaction of applause and cheering to the speakers who made these addresses is I beleive a stain on our Union I have to say. Yet people then get up and speak about the need for unity going forward, baffling to me I must admit.

    It was a particularly strange atmosphere in the hall today with many people around me blatantly showing no interest in listening whatsoever to the debate but with very preconceived notions of what they were going to do. Nothing wrong with this but at least show the courtesy to listen and consider. I heard two people directly behind me say they had never been to a branch meeting or convention before but when one speaker gave his name at the podium one said to the other "oh this is the guy we were warned about, the People before Profit" guy. These two people then went on to laugh and snigger their way through the various people who spoke against.

    Sorry for the rant, I just genuinely do feel disillusioned with what went on today. I don't agree with people on the other side of the debate to me but I know many of them from many other different spheres of interest, I spoke to many of them today and we respectfully agree to disagree. To me that respect was all too often absent today, maybe on both sides but on one more than the other for me. The proposers and supporters of the motion see themselves as the moderates, the people to claim back the Union from dangerous extremists, if the behaviour of many today was anything to go by the dictionary definition of moderate must have changed.

    The passing of the motion I can very easily deal with and members will get the chance to vote on LRA 2 in a few months but the claim that the Union has somehow been saved today please spare me.


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    #2247
    Mekekka
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭Mekekka


    Jayo76 you summed it up really well, especially the horrible comments and how personal it got. Some proposition speakers were aggressive at certain times and derisive at others and the encouragement of this by clapping, cheering etc was really disheartening.
    But, what's done is done! Unless anyone feels like organising a petition for a special convention against this... (winking face). Just Kidding!


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    #2248
    Pinkycharm
    Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Pinkycharm


    What happens to the people in asti who were due their cid this year and didn't get it? My younger brother is one of them, will it be sorted from now or September. He's trying to get a mortgage.


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    #2249
    jayo76
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭jayo76


    Mekekka wrote: »
    Jayo76 you summed it up really well, especially the horrible comments and how personal it got. Some proposition speakers were aggressive at certain times and derisive at others and the encouragement of this by clapping, cheering etc was really disheartening.
    But, what's done is done! Unless anyone feels like organising a petition for a special convention against this... (winking face). Just Kidding!

    To be honest at this particular moment in time as disillusioned as I feel I still don't really want another special convention. However if people did want to play that game, as we heard many times today they would be well within their rights and the rules of the Union and i have no doubt they would very easily collect 800 signatures. Would these 800 signatures be presented as a grassroots movement unhappy with the standing down of action or would they be demonised as a raving bunch of left wing extremists out to serve their own needs?! I do wonder.........


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    #2250
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    PureClareGold wrote: »
    acequion wrote: »
    Oh get lost would you! You've never had a clue what you were talking about and you claim to represent the "hard working teachers!"  Were you there today? Were you one of the disgraceful loud mouths who hollered and jeered and refused to listen to another point of view? A well organised faction got their way today. When you've been teaching as long as I have and as long as the  many  who were jeered off the podium today by idiots who think they know better, come back then and tell us then if you're delighted with the yellow pack job and inferior education system you're celebrating tonight!

    Toys being thrown out if your pram moment. Why not organise another special convention if you feel your voice wasn't heard!!
    No strategy. No movement from other side. No willingness to play hardball and go on all out strike. Where were we going. We had to try another way. This is another way.
    acequion wrote: »
    Oh get lost would you! You've never had a clue what you were talking about and you claim to represent the "hard working teachers!"  Were you there today? Were you one of the disgraceful loud mouths who hollered and jeered and refused to listen to another point of view? A well organised faction got their way today. When you've been teaching as long as I have and as long as the  many  who were jeered off the podium today by idiots who think they know better, come back then and tell us then if you're delighted with the yellow pack job and inferior education system you're celebrating tonight!

    Toys being thrown out if your pram moment. Why not organise another special convention if you feel your voice wasn't heard!!
    No strategy. No movement from other side. No willingness to play hardball and go on all out strike. Where were we going. We had to try another way. This is another way.
    No honey I'm throwing no toys out of my pram. I'm abroad on holidays, will future teachers be able to afford that? I own my own home. Will future teachers be able to do that? And I'm at most 8 years from retirement so I reckon I'll be gone before the June holidays are pulled. So for me personally,it's not a major deal. But it is one hell of a major deal for our NQTs, who you and your buddies have blithely sold out today. And actually I would do all out strike,I would do whatever it takes to restore the integrity of my profession and the collegiality which you people sell so cheaply. And the backlash against you all tonight means that a No in September is starting to look very real.
    And somehow from the tone of your posts over the past months I sincerely doubt you'd ever play hardball or any way except your way!


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    #2251
    MacGyver007
    Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭MacGyver007


    Mekekka wrote: »

    Bacchus22 I really hope everyone does get the payments etc ASAP now that the vote has gone through but I can't help but feel there will be some catch! I hope I'm wrong though, for the sakes or those who are owed.

    There was a significant holdup after HRA was accepted! Cast your mind back to late 2014, when there was a delay in increments that were due on December 1 of that year:

    http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/salary-increment-delays/

    http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/salary-increments-delay-update/

    They were finally paid at the beginning of March 2015. What odds of a similar delay in payments owed this time around....?


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