Where now for ASTI? ****ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post***

man_no_plan

maude6868 wrote: »

Am I reading the detail wrong? I'm seeing that nobody gets paid for s&s, just those that don't do it pay the 1769 euro to opt out, very same as before. It says 'a teacher who opts-in will be required to carry out supervision and substitution duties
and will have the salary reduction associated with the opt-out restored to salary;. Doesn't that just mean that they won't have to pay the 1769 euro. No mention of increments being unfrozen also. I'm beyond fuming.

You get it back in two halves added to the payscale under LRA.

Increments are unfrozen under LRA also.

km79

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-central-executive-council-to-consider-outcome-of-talks/


No decision from SC
Or should I say no rejection
That's the first hurdle cleared .......

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

HR was actually a better deal than this

How?

km79

man_no_plan wrote: »

You get it back in two halves added to the payscale under LRA.

Increments are unfrozen under LRA also.

Backdated till ?

judeboy101

paddybarry wrote: »

I think people need to take a deep breath. There is not a hope SC will accept this proposal.

But the cec might

deiseindublin

As an aside, that's not new PA, they said that last May, has nothing to do with the last 3 weeks of negotiation. Anyway, probably didn't phrase Q very well, what I meant was, will ASTI teachers be expected to complete 33 hours of CP this academic year?

Really hope it's rejected by SC. If not, then CEC and then if they accept, membership will hopefully reject. I mean, there's feck all in it on offer so surely at least 1 of those 3 groups will reject .

ASTI will be as much of a laughing stock as my own TUI if this gets through.

man_no_plan

Lads I think this hammering of the leadership is a bit nonsensical. This is an outside view oc what happened, correct me of I'm wrong.

Motion at congress to withdraw from CP. CARRIED.

Motion to take action on low pay. CARRIED

Motion to withdraw from s/s if not paid. CARRIED

Vote on LRA. REJECTED.

The DES was hammered for pointing out their view of the difference between being in and being out. They kept their word on this.

Members of the ASTI voted to reject LRA. Members voted to strike if pay wasn't restored by x date in August. Members voted to withdraw from s/s.

The ballots were held as a result of motions at congress, who is congress? Members.

You can't win in this game. You ingnore members in Congress you don't represent them, you follow directions and pursue an impossible task and you're wrong when you don't win.

Icsics

Interesting point on posts too...seniority gone & appeals based solely on the 'process'.

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

Backdated till ?

It was never supposed to be backdated under the LRA, I'd assume it'll be backdated to sept seeing that you did it from September. But I dontvkniw, I only glanced at the doc.

MrJones1973

man_no_plan wrote: »

Lads I think this hammering of the leadership is a bit nonsensical. This is an outside view oc what happened, correct me of I'm wrong.

Motion at congress to withdraw from CP. CARRIED.

Motion to take action on low pay. CARRIED

Motion to withdraw from s/s if not paid. CARRIED

Vote on LRA. REJECTED.

The DES was hammered for pointing out their view of the difference between being in and being out. They kept their word on this.

Members of the ASTI voted to reject LRA. Members voted to strike if pay wasn't restored by x date in August. Members voted to withdraw from s/s.

The ballots were held as a result of motions at congress, who is congress? Members.

You can't win in this game. You ingnore members in Congress you don't represent them, you follow directions and pursue an impossible task and you're wrong when you don't win.

Congress ??

judeboy101

Opt

man_no_plan wrote: »

How?

Opt out scheme way more generous

MrJones1973

SC has lost the staffroom (s) what they do now is pointless

MrJones1973

CEC does not matter. I was on CEC that rejected HR . What did members do ? Vote by a large majority for HR.

Leadership took an 80℅ and blew it

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

SC has lost the staffroom (s) what they do now is pointless

The fact they didn't come to a decision means they wanted to accept it but were only just in the majority. Pushing it to cec where its easier to get overall majority makes sense. Imho

MrJones1973

man_no_plan wrote: »

Lads I think this hammering of the leadership is a bit nonsensical. This is an outside view oc what happened, correct me of I'm wrong.

Motion at congress to withdraw from CP. CARRIED.

Motion to take action on low pay. CARRIED

Motion to withdraw from s/s if not paid. CARRIED

Vote on LRA. REJECTED.

The DES was hammered for pointing out their view of the difference between being in and being out. They kept their word on this.

Members of the ASTI voted to reject LRA. Members voted to strike if pay wasn't restored by x date in August. Members voted to withdraw from s/s.

The ballots were held as a result of motions at congress, who is congress? Members.

You can't win in this game. You ingnore members in Congress you don't represent them, you follow directions and pursue an impossible task and you're wrong when you don't win.

This is confusing and ignores the part played by SC. A ballot is not a strategy. It was not impossible if we had been out longer. A few weeks. 3 days ? Is that what members voted for ??

MrJones1973

judeboy101 wrote: »

The fact they didn't come to a decision means they wanted to accept it but were only just in the majority. Pushing it to cec where its easier to get overall majority makes sense. Imho

Who cares what CEC do ? I suggest they do x mass shopping.

Icsics

judeboy101 wrote: »

Opt

Opt out scheme way more generous

Doesn't it say a lot about the proposals when paying over €1700 to not do work you never did is seen as generous oh and having lump sum/pension reduced accordingly

judeboy101

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Who cares what CEC do ? I suggest they do x mass shopping.

If the SC was for rejecting it the top brass can push it to CEC where acceptance is more likely. Remember cec ppl were reelected last few weeks so good chance its being loaded with apparatchiks.

judeboy101

Icsics wrote: »

Doesn't it say a lot about the proposals when paying over €1700 to not do work you never did is seen as generous oh and having lump sum/pension reduced accordingly

HR opt out was 1700 for life that meant inflation would take care of I in time. By my reckoning a 15 year veteran will be paying nearly 2600 pa in 10 years

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

As an aside, that's not new PA, they said that last May, has nothing to do with the last 3 weeks of negotiation. Anyway, probably didn't phrase Q very well, what I meant was, will ASTI teachers be expected to complete 33 hours of CP this academic year?

Really hope it's rejected by SC. If not, then CEC and then if they accept, membership will hopefully reject. I mean, there's feck all in it on offer so surely at least 1 of those 3 groups will reject .

ASTI will be as much of a laughing stock as my own TUI if this gets through.

Which is the priority though? NQT pay? S/s Croke Park hours, New JC?

I'm not sure the TUI is a laughing stock, they negotiated an agreement that members accepted. Whole I know you and plenty of others don't agree with it it hardly makes them a laughing stock. They knew in May what the bottom line was and got the assurances in the doc.

There has been movement on all of these on NQT pay, CP hours and the issue of casualisation. There's a whole lot more to be done of course and we have a lot riding on the public pay commission. Arguably TUI shouldn't have been talking to the DES, arguably the ASTI should have been, everyone has a different view.

The message from DPER is that new entrant pay was public sector wide and can't be done for one group. Then there was the gardai. That's a mess that they will have to clear up with us all and we probably need all unions banging the same drum.

political analyst

deiseindublin wrote: »

As an aside, that's not new PA, they said that last May, has nothing to do with the last 3 weeks of negotiation. Anyway, probably didn't phrase Q very well, what I meant was, will ASTI teachers be expected to complete 33 hours of CP this academic year?

Really hope it's rejected by SC. If not, then CEC and then if they accept, membership will hopefully reject. I mean, there's feck all in it on offer so surely at least 1 of those 3 groups will reject .

ASTI will be as much of a laughing stock as my own TUI if this gets through.

Were they expected to complete 33 hours of CP after they eventually accepted HRA?

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

This is confusing and ignores the part played by SC. A ballot is not a strategy. It was not impossible if we had been out longer. A few weeks. 3 days ? Is that what members voted for ??

I think you and me agreed around the time of the rejection of the LRA that this would have to get very dirty and very long.

The talk is that hundreds of furious members bombarded ASTI head office complaining about the strike.

I take your point about strategy and have made the same point myself but there was no strategy that could resolve these issues fully at the same time outside of an all out strike for weeks. That wouldn't have flown either.

Did anyone think that when they voted to Strike if pay wasn't restored fully by August that this would be done? And you're right I suppose the leadership might need to take criticism on that wording ( or where did it come from) once the 1st of sept came it was game on.

There was so much fanfare and back slapping in the ASTI membership about their achievement when they rejected the LRA.

I said at the time and I say again that was the beginning and not the end, the end was a long drawn out dirty industrial dispute that didn't happen.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

SC has lost the staffroom (s) what they do now is pointless

I'm beginning to wonder if your issue with SC is personal? You are the only person I hear making such a fuss about them.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

CEC does not matter. I was on CEC that rejected HR . What did members do ? Vote by a large majority for HR.

Leadership took an 80℅ and blew it

That was because the then leader went around the country campaigning for HR despite the rejection of the CEC.

maude6868

man_no_plan wrote: »

You get it back in two halves added to the payscale under LRA.

Increments are unfrozen under LRA also.

But are we not still outside the LRA?

acequion

It's interesting that the poster talking the most sense this evening is actually TUI. And that's man_no_plan

While I understand that a lot of people are upset they are not helping matters with their tantrums.

If we all calm down for a few minutes and look at this logically we might see that it's a very difficult, if not impossible, situation. We are dealing with a FG Government who have never been nice to public servants and currently they have the backing of a generally anti public service public and of course their mouthpiece,the media. Add to that the fact that teachers have caved in and backed down on everything since the current campaign,ie "reform" began. So the Gov are not in the least intimidated by teacher unions and they have been consistent in their intransigence from the start.

Add to the mix skittish teachers who really don't want to be on strike. They might do a day here and there but how committed are they to an all out? Teachers are a deeply conservative group by nature and acquiescent to the status quo.Man_no_plan is right that there were loads of ASTI members kicking up a huge fuss about the strikes, the lock out despite the big endorsement to strike.

Add in the fact that the other unions,especially our fellow union,TUI have already conceded to Government demands. Also the fact that there is distrust of union leaders because of their high pay. And when you put it all together it does look insurmountable.

But,for all that, I really hope that the fight isn't over. Like others I hoped it would get thrown out by SC but I can see where they might be coming from as they have to think about all members,especially as there is a small concession on the opt out. But I disagree that there is a better chance that CEC will accept. I am on CEC and I find everybody there very committed and very brave. So I would be confident that it will be rejected.My guess is that it will go to ballot with a motion to reject.What happens after that is anyone's guess.

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

It's interesting that the poster talking the most sense this evening is actually TUI. And that's man_no_plan

While I understand that a lot of people are upset they are not helping matters with their tantrums.

If we all calm down for a few minutes and look at this logically we might see that it's a very difficult, if not impossible, situation. We are dealing with a FG Government who have never been nice to public servants and currently they have the backing of a generally anti public service public and of course their mouthpiece,the media. Add to that the fact that teachers have caved in and backed down on everything since the current campaign,ie "reform" began. So the Gov are not in the least intimidated by teacher unions and they have been consistent in their intransigence from the start.

Add to the mix skittish teachers who really don't want to be on strike. They might do a day here and there but how committed are they to an all out? Teachers are a deeply conservative group by nature and acquiescent to the status quo.Man_no_plan is right that there were loads of ASTI members kicking up a huge fuss about the strikes, the lock out despite the big endorsement to strike.

Add in the fact that the other unions,especially our fellow union,TUI have already conceded to Government demands. Also the fact that there is distrust of union leaders because of their high pay. And when you put it all together it does look insurmountable.

But,for all that, I really hope that the fight isn't over. Like others I hoped it would get thrown out by SC but I can see where they might be coming from as they have to think about all members,especially as there is a small concession on the opt out. But I disagree that there is a better chance that CEC will accept. I am on CEC and I find everybody there very committed and very brave. So I would be confident that it will be rejected.My guess is that it will go to ballot with a motion to reject.What happens after that is anyone's guess.

A low turnout due to apathy and it could easily pass. What kills me is so little movement on the non money end e.g CP hrs and Junior cert. Also not agreement in principle to the idea of pay parity. Best of luck Saturday

evolving_doors

It's quite simple,
ASTI Choose Lansdowne Road or be prepared for very long strikes. Not much anything anyone at CEC can bargain with if the dept know that there's no appetite for further strikes.

A few days out were easily wiped out by US election result and Gardai. The public have very short memories when it comes to education...
Maybe 2nd yr parents would worry about Jc, 3Rd yr parents will throw a few shapes but forget about it once the exam is over.
S&S... Any non teachers understand what that's about, there's so much history attached ?
LPT... Public just see the starting 'salary'...3months holidays, golden pensions, bad teachers.

No point in giving out.

deiseindublin

I haven't the will to get into it man_no_plan but to my mind they are a laughing stock. They got next to nothing for LPTs, we're still doing CP hours and the new JC is here.

MrJones1973

My view about SC is not personal. We were heading towards a long strike. SC caved in and ended all industrial action. I repeat All. They had a choice. Call an all out and thus make a point we were serious or go back to 7day plan. What did they do? Agree to talks lasting a few weeks that achieved SFA. The department knew once teachers off the boiler plate of industrial action all they had to do was spin talks out for weeks and then offer SFA
As for hundreds protesting? Who cares . We have 18000 members. We had an 80℅ ballot
We might have lost even after a few weeks out but at least that game plan could be written off.
I won't ever vote for industrial action in Asti again as it always morphs into the grand old Duke of York.
CEC won't matter. People have shut industrial action out their minds . They will come back with x mas bills in January and vote yes

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

My view about SC is not personal. We were heading towards a long strike. SC caved in and ended all industrial action. I repeat All. They had a choice. Call an all out and thus make a point we were serious or go back to 7day plan. What did they do? Agree to talks lasting a few weeks that achieved SFA. The department knew once teachers off the boiler plate of industrial action all they had to do was spin talks out for weeks and then offer SFA
As for hundreds protesting? Who cares . We have 18000 members. We had an 80℅ ballot
We might have lost even after a few weeks out but at least that game plan could be written off.
I won't ever vote for industrial action in Asti again as it always morphs into the grand old Duke of York.
CEC won't matter. People have shut industrial action out their minds . They will come back with x mas bills in January and vote yes

My thoughts exactly
I'm done