Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

Cantona's Collars

Minderbinder wrote: »

Yeah his crossing should be better but overall he is a solid performer and as someone else mentioned we have bigger problems than Valencia. He combines well in attacking areas and is often involved in good play even if he is not making the killer pass.

1 of 11 crosses completed. He reverted to Turn Back Tony yesterday. Imagine Zlatan getting crosses played in from the likes of Beckham.

Liam O

zerks wrote: »

1 of 11 crosses completed. He reverted to Turn Back Tony yesterday. Imagine Zlatan getting crosses played in from the likes of Beckham.

Where do you get the crossing stats out of interest? Was looking for a while a few weeks back...

Cantona's Collars

Liam O wrote: »

Where do you get the crossing stats out of interest? Was looking for a while a few weeks back...

Opta have them.

MagicIRL

A settled midfield has led us up the table and to a 16 unbeaten streak.

A settled back four would ensure a title challenge. No wingers playing in defence, or at the opposite side of the line depending on the game.

Consistent players in their correct positions. As much as I like Tony V, and he clearly loves United, his crossing is shocking and he will never be a right back.

Tom.D.BJJ

Pogba was very poor yesterday, and it could have been even worse had the ref seen him swinging Henderson to the ground. I'm positive he will bounce back strongly from it.

Aside from that, look at these from Herrera

https://streamable.com/c27uk
https://streamable.com/5bjwa

Flint Fredstone

Jayop wrote: »

Ah that lot would drive you mad. The amount of crying I read in the match thread about the ref when they were leading was unreal.

pitytillicry :pac:

bangkok

Minderbinder wrote: »

This is why United fans are often called deluded.

yea and liverpool fans are not :rolleyes:

Pogba would make any team in world football today

Minderbinder

zerks wrote: »

Minderbinder wrote: »

Yeah his crossing should be better but overall he is a solid performer and as someone else mentioned we have bigger problems than Valencia. He combines well in attacking areas and is often involved in good play even if he is not making the killer pass.

1 of 11 crosses completed. He reverted to Turn Back Tony yesterday. Imagine Zlatan getting crosses played in from the likes of Beckham.

When we had Beckham and Neville and Giggs we were a crossing team. We sent in a great variety of crosses and a lot of crosses from deep or the sideline. We got crosses in between the goalkeeper and defence. We didn't give opponents the time to get ready for it. I believe they worked hard on that in training.

I think we are not a crossing team now. Crossing is more a last resort. When we run out of ideas we give it to Valencia and expect the perfect cross into a congested penalty area.

Of course Valencia is partly to blame as he should at least be clearing the first man but it's almost impossible to find the right trajectory from the positions he is crossing it from. I think Valencia is being blamed but the attacks have often fizzled out before he even gets the ball.

Hococop

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Pogba was very poor yesterday, and it could have been even worse had the ref seen him swinging Henderson to the ground. I'm positive he will bounce back strongly from it.

Aside from that, look at these from Herrera

https://streamable.com/c27uk
https://streamable.com/5bjwa

That first clip is brilliant 3 great passes from de gea, val and herrera

Minderbinder

bangkok wrote: »

Minderbinder wrote: »

This is why United fans are often called deluded.

yea and liverpool fans are not :rolleyes:

Pogba would make any team in world football today

You said he is the best in the world. Which is it?

bangkok

Minderbinder wrote: »

You said he is the best in the world. Which is it?

imo yes, he is the best midfielder in the world

beno619

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Aside from that, look at these from Herrera

https://streamable.com/c27uk
https://streamable.com/5bjwa

Beautiful.

De Gea's distribution was phenomenal yesterday, he was trying things the most outfield players couldn't pull off let alone in such a high profile/pressure situation.

Tom.D.BJJ

bangkok wrote: »

imo yes, he is the best midfielder in the world

he's not, but he young and has the ability to be if he continues his upward trend

bucketybuck

Minderbinder wrote: »

When we had Beckham and Neville and Giggs we were a crossing team. We sent in a great variety of crosses and a lot of crosses from deep or the sideline. We got crosses in between the goalkeeper and defence. We didn't give opponents the time to get ready for it. I believe they worked hard on that in training.

I think we are not a crossing team now. Crossing is more a last resort. When we run out of ideas we give it to Valencia and expect the perfect cross into a congested penalty area.

Of course Valencia is partly to blame as he should at least be clearing the first man but it's almost impossible to find the right trajectory from the positions he is crossing it from. I think Valencia is being blamed but the attacks have often fizzled out before he even gets the ball.

I don't agree with what you say here but even if it was true, even if we were only ending up in that position as a last resort, the reality is that we are ending up in that position and as such badly need the person in that position to be able to deliver a good ball.

Find the right trajectory? Come on, he is getting the ball in perfectly normal positions, the problem isn't the trajectory its the delivery.

Mantis Toboggan

Pogba has all the ability and flashy skills but what he's lacking is between the ears, and unfortunately that something that cannot be thought.

His reading of the game, decision making and positional sense are extremely poor. He runs around like a headless chicken. These attributes are under rated but are vital to world class midfielders.

TheDoc

I don't read matchthreads and tend not to look much into other rival threads but have got the general jist of what has been going on.

And I just had it from a Liverpool fan in work today.

Had to gently remind him that Klopp signed Steven Caulker as a CB and then proceeded to play him up front for hoofball when chasing results. There is more then one way to skin a cat, and it's a bit laughable when managers operate in that bubble where it's like some form of insult the opposition don't play in a method that suits them.

Mourinho is as guilty as anyone for it, but sorry if your defence can't handle aerial balls, bread and butter stuff, you shouldn't be drawing attention to it.

It's incredible how selective fans, managers, media and players get when something doesn't go their way

As a football fan with a functioning brain, I'd actually like if managers were held to task in these interviews and press conferences, and not let off scott free by sycophantic, scared journalists and interviewers.

Could you imagine if political correspondents operated like that, holding no one to task just letting them say what they want with no challenge. It's about time (and this isn't Klopp centric, it really played on my mind when Jose was getting away with no real challenge earlier in the season) managers got held to account for their dribble and were challenged. I'm getting pretty tired of the unchallenged spiel managers are allowed to give. And managers should accept they can be challenged and questioned.

I actually don't even bother with the post match stuff, so rubbish and pointless it is.

bangkok

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

he's not, but he young and has the ability to be if he continues his upward trend

in your opinion..

Tom.D.BJJ

bangkok wrote: »

in your opinion..

But if shout louder and persistently then it becomes your opinion too. That's how it works, right?

TheDoc

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Pogba has all the ability and flashy skills but what he's lacking is between the ears, and unfortunately that something that cannot be thought.

His reading of the game, decision making and positional sense are extremely poor. He runs around like a headless chicken. These attributes are under rated but are vital to world class midfielders.

Erm, yes, yes it can.

There is a reason a players "peak" years are later in their career. Through experience and exposure and training, they learn, learn and learn and then become better players.

The ones that don't just arn't good players or are the "bird brains", not the football brains.

Sorry but that is an incorrect statement you are making there.

Decision making and positional sense would be one of the two MASSIVE traits that develop with experience and age. There is a reason the best CB's in the world arn't in their early twenties, and are typically in their late 20's early 30's and why typically the best strikers are in their late 20's.

Through experience, exposure and making mistakes and learning from them, players develop instincts and the capacity to know where to be in X scenario and what works and what doesn't.To say Pogba won't learn how to be a better midfielder, at 23, is a ridiculous knee jerk comment that is typical of football en mass today with the need to make concrete statements to hold weight in the future, when the reality is nobody will have a clue

On the flipside, that same train of thought would basically try to claim that Martial is going to be a hot and cold winger for the remainder of his career and likely not going to be good enough, and Rashford is a streaky striker that longterm won't be good enough. Or you know, the more they play, and as they get older, their decision making improves, their capacity to decide what to do in a particular scenario improves, and they get better.

Nalz

We paid 90m for a young talented midfielder who loves the club and has the potential to be the best in the world whilst improving our team now and he's good for the wanky yet profitable branding/merchandising. He had an off day yesterday it seems (didn't get to see the game)

There, I summed it up

TheDoc

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

But if shout louder and persistently then it becomes your opinion too. That's how it works, right?

Bangkok has his opinions that for some reason via text, rarely conveys as his opinion and comes off as if its the truth and anything else is a lie.

Which is sometimes an impressive feat considering rarely to never is there any addition to his statement, like a reason, or why he feels that way.

Like I think Toni Kroos is one of, if not the, best CM operating in world football. I appreciate that is my opinion, I go to lengths sometimes to explain why I feel this way, and accept it's only my opinion and that I'm clearly not correct and that really the tag "Best X" likely changes week to week.

But then someone comes along with "lol hes not even the best CM in Madrid, Modric is the best" with just nothing else and its a bit , whats the ****ing point

limnam

Every time I go to write something it just turns into calling Pogba every name under the sun :pac:

It's interesting that Pogba didn't get the lashback from the fans mou did for his blunder for the pen in what was a much more important game

I'm more angry about his backheel into two Liverpool players in the middle of the park than the pen. infuriating stuff.

Emoji's,the hair cuts. put the breaks on pogs back to battling and grinding out the points.

TheDoc

Nalz wrote: »

We paid 90m for a young talented midfielder who loves the club and has the potential to be the best in the world whilst improving our team now and he's good for the wanky yet profitable branding/merchandising. He had an off day yesterday it seems (didn't get to see the game)

There, I summed it up

Like while I wouldn't call Pogba the best CM in the world, it wouldn't be as stretch to say "one of the best". He is a clearly talented and impressive figure, and anyone that derides him over a fee or paints him negatively is just a jealous rival fan or a United griefer.

At 23 he is operating better then most midfielders playing in top sides regularly, and barring some mitigating circumstances there is no reason to not expect him to go onto become one of the best.

With Pogba we are getting some inconsistency sure, hes 23. But I think this season bar a very small few poor performances, he has been pretty good and dominating.

It's 26,27,28 where I'm really enticed by what he will be like and what he will be doing. Obviously assuming and hoping he is still at the club.

But I think it's a bit much to be expecting a 23 yr old to be dominating big games by himself. Sure it might happen, but in reality when does a young players, especially a midfielder, dominate a game that size, at that age.

TheDoc

limnam wrote: »

Every time I go to write something it just turns into calling Pogba every name under the sun :pac:

It's interesting that Pogba didn't get the lashback from the fans mou did for his blunder for the pen in what was a much more important game

I'm more angry about his backheel into two Liverpool players in the middle of the park than the pen. infuriating stuff.

Emoji's,the hair cuts. put the breaks on pogs back to battling and grinding out the points.

I had that reaction too yesterday, but then I'll probably be guilty of hypocrisy. I'd imagine we will hear plenty of "PFM" this week claiming how he needs to get the head down and how there is too many distractions around him. Maybe they weren't distracting at all and he just had a ****e game.

I actually didn't get that mad about the penalty. A penalty no doubt, that can happen. That he had his arms up was silly but I don't think he was doing it intentionally. You could see his reaction he was just fuming at himself.

I was happy to see Carragher afterwards point out what was clearly happening during that game. Neville sometimes is like a dog with a bone with a narrative and he was painting Pogba was failing entirely to deal with Lovren.

When actually in the first few instances Pogba was being blocked and obstructed each time.

somewhat seperate point, but they bring in a rule about shirt pulling to stamp it out, and what, they are just happily reintroducing obstruction into the game? You see it a fair bit now in plenty of games where three attackers will line up around the 12 yard line and its about blocking and clashing into defenders to get a free man. It's a clear foul all day long, but for some reason being totally allowed to carry on.

Just another to the list for me showing the refereeing standard has been piss poor this year. I'd be ****ing fuming if I was say Stoke, going through that spell losing points for shirt pulling, when it seems match to match most referees arn't enforcing it and no one really gives a ****

Crimson King

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

https://streamable.com/c27uk
https://streamable.com/5bjwa

That first clip is sensational play from United, when I think of the team at the start of the season and how they were still afraid to express themselves and in half a season we are seeing this type of play. It bodes well for the future and I am looking forward to the progress. However as much as I want to love Val he lets us down time and again with his wastefulness with the final ball/ cross. Even if 20% of them found their man I would say United would easily be in the top four at this stage. The fact yesterday was probably his first assist in the league says it all (open to correction on this btw).

brinty

jesus TheDoc is on fire today and i have to agree with everything he is saying

Tom.D.BJJ

Crimson King wrote: »

That first clip is sensational play from United, when I think of the team at the start of the season and how they were still afraid to express themselves and in half a season we are seeing this type of play. It bodes well for the future and I am looking forward to the progress. However as much as I want to love Val he lets us down time and again with his wastefulness with the final ball/ cross. Even if 20% of them found their man I would say United would easily be in the top four at this stage. The fact yesterday was probably his first assist in the league says it all (open to correction on this btw).

Yeah it's very frustrating. I cannot comprehend how he hasn't improved on it. Similar to Rory Mcillroys wedge game, he either doesnt work on it, or he does and it never improves. It must be clear as day to the coaches

The_Kew_Tour

TheDoc is pretty much on the ball.

Im no good with ages etc but is there many very good 23 CM in the world ?

bucketybuck

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

TheDoc is pretty much on the ball.

Im no good with ages etc but is there many very good 23 CM in the world ?

TC23?

The_Kew_Tour

The big diffference between last season and this season is

Last Season we were giving DDG motm for him winning us or from keeping score down

This season our biggest gripe as a group seems be chances we are wasting.

I know which one I would rather, even if it does result at odd thing been thrown at the telly

jayo26

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The big diffference between last season and this season is

Last Season we were giving DDG motm for him winning us or from keeping score down

This season our biggest gripe as a group seems be chances we are wasting.

I know which one I would rather, even if it does result at odd thing been thrown at the telly

Or another way to look at is last season ddg was man of the match and this season the opposition keepers are more.

There has been 4 draws I think this year that opposition keepers have played a blinder and won motm against us its definitely a change of tide.

beno619

In defence of Valencia if forwards actually put away half the chances he's created this season his assist numbers would look better.

Walker has 5 assists in 30 chances created while Valencia has 1 in 20.

While he can be improved on he was far from the problem yesterday and has been our most important attacking outlet.

Smack's of deflection from the Pogba sized elephant in the room & Fellaini played well yesterday so he cant be scapegoated.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

Bangkok has his opinions that for some reason via text, rarely conveys as his opinion and comes off as if its the truth and anything else is a lie.

Which is sometimes an impressive feat considering rarely to never is there any addition to his statement, like a reason, or why he feels that way.

Like I think Toni Kroos is one of, if not the, best CM operating in world football. I appreciate that is my opinion, I go to lengths sometimes to explain why I feel this way, and accept it's only my opinion and that I'm clearly not correct and that really the tag "Best X" likely changes week to week.

But then someone comes along with "lol hes not even the best CM in Madrid, Modric is the best" with just nothing else and its a bit , whats the ****ing point

suppose its hard to judge, he is def up there with the best of them. Toni Kroos is class at what he does, i would say pogba is a completely different type of midfielder though. kroos will pass, pass, pass all day long, Pogba has the ability to pass but to also run past players with the ball at pace and can score from long range. he can bully opponents with his power. he covers the ground around the field effortlessly. just scary to think he is only 23. how good will he be in 2 or 3 years time

The_Kew_Tour

Fellaini was immense yesterday. His best contribution was his tackle with couple minutes remaining which saved a very clear chance.

The fact others have had to lower themselves by mocking him and how we played when he came on for me shows he made the difference. Even Klopp was peed off and im happy.

Of course I would have rathered the 3 points but its not a terrible bad point either.

Minderbinder

bucketybuck wrote: »

Minderbinder wrote: »

When we had Beckham and Neville and Giggs we were a crossing team. We sent in a great variety of crosses and a lot of crosses from deep or the sideline. We got crosses in between the goalkeeper and defence. We didn't give opponents the time to get ready for it. I believe they worked hard on that in training.

I think we are not a crossing team now. Crossing is more a last resort. When we run out of ideas we give it to Valencia and expect the perfect cross into a congested penalty area.

Of course Valencia is partly to blame as he should at least be clearing the first man but it's almost impossible to find the right trajectory from the positions he is crossing it from. I think Valencia is being blamed but the attacks have often fizzled out before he even gets the ball.

I don't agree with what you say here but even if it was true, even if we were only ending up in that position as a last resort, the reality is that we are ending up in that position and as such badly need the person in that position to be able to deliver a good ball.

We are ending up at Valencia as a last resort a lot of the time. It's hardly the plan to use Valencia as much as possible given his problems crossing the ball. But it becomes the easy option and least risky in terms of a turnover of possession and eliminating the risk of a counter attack.

it's not just United or Valencia either. It's most teams who control territory against teams who sit back. It's natural when an attack loses impetus to go wide and try your luck. But it is so easy to deal with for a defence and that is why they are happy enough to leave the space there once they are organised to deal with a cross.

Nalz

When's the last season both league games between Liverpool and United ended in draws?

sReq | uTeK

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

People need to get over Pogba's performance today. It was shocking. He had a bad game...nothing worked but he kept trying.

He's not going to be a leader out there. He's a gifted footballer bit a leader he isn't. You pay for quality and that's what United have. They just don't have a player to play alongside him that allows the player he can be.

Zlatan never really looked like a top player at Barca but that was because of how they were set up rather than being any reflection on his ability.

Let the other supporters concern themselves with shi*ty memes and let's just hope we get to see the kid's quality sooner rather than later.

Agree with everything you've said except the bolded bit.. Before he was ostricised out wide he was the leading goalscorer in the barca team until Messi was shifted infield and Ibra on the right. A subsequent falling out with Pep due to that meant he left. But have no misconceptions, he looked top class when played up top for Barca.

Anyway, reflecting upon the game yesterday it was a first half to forget. Pogba had a bad day but the lad kept trying and trying, its funny how quickly the previous 9 games, his assists, his winner against Boro are quickly forgotten. How fickle fans are.

He's NEVER going to be a viera like player, people saying he has nothing between the ears need to look at his vision and assists over the course of November and December, hes hit the post an extraordinarily amount of times and is very unlucky not to have a significantly greater goal tally.

People asking for Rashford to come on....Honesty. It was evident that Pool dropped very deep in the 2nd half, there was limited space in behind and they had men covering their fullbacks, Rashford may well have skimmed either fullback but would have been doubled up on, as Martial was all game.

Fellani was the correct choice, by utilizing his strength we were able to quickly get the ball up and work off knock downs, instead of trying to pass a wall of 11 players. Well played to him he executed the plan perfectly and as usual did the job asked of him.

Rooney is done, yes a cross for fellani's header but the amount of time he slowed down the break. When you looked at Couthino on the opposite side, its direct and inventive. It's a shame but he should be nothing more than a cameo player, get his record and leave in the summer with pride and dignity and be remembered a great. He shouldn't be the demise of his own legacy.
He was only just on the pitch and I could hear Zlatan screaming at him to close down the liverpool keeper to force him to pick it up. He didn't even hear him so Mata had to do it.

We fluffed chances, but so did Liverpool. A draw was a very fair result. Liverpool's intensity was exceptional and they hurried and harassed us all day. Micki and Herrera mirrored that but not much else in a united shirt.

I don't understand people saying Rojo had a bag game, he never lost a duel and was there to cover up when Jones got caught out. Again a solid defensive performance. Darmian, whilst fine defending had no attacking outlet and that's a shame when you look at the right back liverpool had there on the day. A player of Martial's capabilities should be destroying that young fella and Darmian should be busting a gut to overlap.

In modern football a fullback in a top team should be doing more than defending, they should be an extension of the attacking unit. Valencia is a terrible crosser of the ball and his reluctance to use his left foot hinders him and he has to pivot and slow down in order to function. I don't think I've seen a player hit a defender as much when trying to cross the ball.

Overall, the result was fair and we gained a point. I'll take that. We're 4 points off 4th in January, there are 51 points left to play for. I have no doubt that if we continue our current trajectory we will get 4th.

limnam

Nalz wrote: »

When's the last season both league games between Liverpool and United ended in draws?

My untrained eye states 1984

sky88

i know carrick and pgoba had bad games but i thought ander was terrific. hes really grown as a player since jose came in.

to be fair to klopp he got his tactics right on carrick and its been what a few of us have been saying for a while that if a player is getting around him a lot hes not going to effect the game.

for how poor we were at times the main problem is that our finishing and taking chances is not good enough but if we can get that together id be confidant of at least a top 4 finish.

KombuchaMshroom

beno619 wrote: »

In defence of Valencia if forwards actually put away half the chances he's created this season his assist numbers would look better.

Walker has 5 assists in 30 chances created while Valencia has 1 in 20.

While he can be improved on he was far from the problem yesterday and has been our most important attacking outlet.

Smack's of deflection from the Pogba sized elephant in the room & Fellaini played well yesterday so he cant be scapegoated.

I truly don't think this is the case with Valencia, people have been critical of his end product for years, I know I have anyway.
His crossing has been a joke for a long time now.

Just look at the two examples of good build up play and passes by Herrera out to Valencia that Tom D. posted on the last page. Valencia kills both those attacks, as he tends to do the majority of the time he has the ball.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2016/matches/855376/player-stats/20695/2_ATTACK_01#tabs-wrapper-anchor

That's a link to his crossing map from yesterday. That's brutal, especially for a player who started off as a winger.

Add to this the fact he is very bad at maintaining a defensive line level with the rest of the defence, often playing others onside, and that he never tracks his man from crosses, i think a new right back should definitely be a priority in the summer.

limnam

KombuchaMshroom wrote: »

Add to this the fact he is very bad at maintaining a defensive line level with the rest of the defence, often playing others onside, and that he never tracks his man from crosses, i think a new right back should definitely be a priority in the summer.

Out of interest.

How many goals have we conceded due to Valencia playing an opposing player onside?

jayo26

Our next four games before we play city are games we should be winning in that same period Liverpool play Chelsea and spurs while city play spurs next then we play them the end of February we realistically could be in top four by end of February if we win our next five league games and if we don't then it will be Thursday cup concentration for us as it's a route into champs league.

newballsplease

Pogba is getting a roasting due to this BS twitter emoji thing that was advertised constantly during the game. His worst game probably for Utd.
Ferguson would never have allowed something like that to go on.

Ted111

Nalz wrote: »

When's the last season both league games between Liverpool and United ended in draws?

1919/20.

Dwarf.Shortage

newballsplease wrote: »

Pogba is getting a roasting due to this BS twitter emoji thing that was advertised constantly during the game. His worst game probably for Utd.
Ferguson would never have allowed something like that to go on.

Ferguson humoured Beckham for long enough and he was the equivelant in the Fergie era.

Cantona's Collars

We have the worst chance conversion rate in the EPL.


Big Chance Total....... Big Chance Scored........ Big Chance Conversion %


37....................................... 12...................................32.43%

fatherted1969

Anyhoo it's been a hugely competitive season, if you'd have told me heading into Feb that we'd have lost 3 league games and asked me to guess what position we were in I'd have never in a million years said 6th incredible how we're there really. We've one foot in a cup final, have a decent enough draw in the next Rd of the Europa and FA cup so things are never as bad as they seem.

Teams above utd in the league are all showing great form atm so it's very important that we win our next 4 or 5 league games. On paper they're very winnable.

Lucas Hood

Nalz wrote: »

When's the last season both league games between Liverpool and United ended in draws?

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/820690895171440640

bucketybuck

Pogba is getting all the grief but any thoughts on Martial yesterday?

Another whole load of nothing once again in my opinion, made worse by the fact he was up against a rookie full back and we needed so much more from him.

Polo_Mint

Onward and Upwards