Milk Price III

Finest

mahoney_j wrote: »

Finest wrote: »

The main point here is the use of the best tools for comparative analysis be it a profit monitor pasturebase milk recording etc, for some reason you seem dead set against this .

I’m not but just don’t get the fascination with what anyone else is at .oeoole have different ways and methods of doing simillar jobs farms are different

If your not then don't mock farmers who do whom you accused of willy waving earlier

Finest

kowtow wrote: »

Termsandco wrote: »

There is a section for hired labour in the profit monitor input sheet. The only person stopping a farmer for putting in a value for his own labour is the farmer himself.

Wouldn't that make a nonsense of comparing farms though?

I've spent a lifetime reading accounts and analyses of one sort or another. If you want any template to really work well the first thing you need to do is clearly establish what it is and isn't intended for. Figure out the questions you want to answer and you'll work out what questions you need to ask.

And if you need more than one template, you need more than one template.

Many farms are now in a company the farmer normally takes a wage from the company so what's so wrong with terms and co suggestion

blackdog1

I thought this thread was about milk price not profit monitor. So can we please stay on topic.

Keepgrowing

blackdog1 wrote: »

I thought this thread was about milk price not profit monitor. So can we please stay on topic.

Ah no, this is great craic

Keepgrowing

freedominacup wrote: »

That's not teagasc advice mj, it's NZ research where they are much more used to dealing with the aftermath of droughts. I've been there. Very expensive lesson. We have fert spread now but there was no way I was going out with it until grass started to move. Even at that we needed the rain we're getting this morning to be sure of a response.

Couldn’t agree more, got that tshirt years ago. It was hard to wait but didn’t go till grass started growing and waited till it hit 40 We hadn’t spread for 8 weeks but after 40 mm we’re bombing again. Cows on ad-lib silage, 4 kg in parlour and 6 hulls. Will release handbrake when we have a paddock at 1000

Keepgrowing

blackdog1 wrote: »

I thought this thread was about milk price not profit monitor. So can we please stay on topic.

Ah no, this is great craic

kowtow

Termsandco wrote: »

are you suggesting instead of putting in a fixed figure for ones own labour it's calculated on the hours worked instead and accumulated on a per hour worked basis

If you want to compare the efficiency of farm vs farm, or the impact of different farming systems, then the only way I can see to do it where labour is concerned is to express labour in some standard form - hours worked, no. of full time equivalents, whatever.

The AI example was a bit tongue in cheek, but if you were to consider zero grazing in to a robot, for example, vs. a traditional herringbone then the comparison would be more meaningful.

It also has the advantage that hours worked can be multiplied by a standardized labour charge to produce a realistic cost of production.

kowtow

Finest wrote: »

Many farms are now in a company the farmer normally takes a wage from the company so what's so wrong with terms and co suggestion

Nothing wrong with it per se, but even outside a company drawings tend to be very specific to each farm, typically they are a function of family needs and the capacity of the business to pay.

Further, if farming in a close company then generally wages and benefits for principals are set to optimise tax (for example, to use maximum lower rate allowances) sometimes regardless of farm business performance. In other tax systems dividends are preferred over wages, similarly directors loan accounts may be used to minimize taxation under certain circumstances.

So in a company wages are often less likely to reflect the normal market value of the work performed in a given year.

kowtow

Termsandco wrote: »

how does all this read in the new profit monitor.
For example In my 2016 profit monitor a loan for a land purchase currently at €131,000 was accounted in the profit monitor as €1785.12 in interest which showed up as 0.56c/l.

In the new improved profit monitor it'll be recorded as
Land charge €21,300
Loan repayments €17,791.67
Interest €1785.12
Or 12.9c/l ?

If I was improving the profit monitor then for comparison purposes I'd strip the whole lot out and put in a standardized charge for the acres involved.

Regardless of that the loan capital repayment would never be a P&L item so shouldn't be in a profit statement or monitor of any kind, it's just a balance sheet and cash issue.

The notional land charge would satisfy the need to compare with other farms or impute a cost of production.

You can see the issue here, the PM is trying to do three jobs - P&L, cashflow, and KPI comparison. There is no single approach which can do that effectively.

older by the day

kowtow wrote: »

If I was improving the profit monitor then for comparison purposes I'd strip the whole lot out and put in a standardized charge for the acres involved.

Regardless of that the loan capital repayment would never be a P&L item so shouldn't be in a profit statement or monitor of any kind, it's just a balance sheet and cash issue.

The notional land charge would satisfy the need to compare with other farms or impute a cost of production.

You can see the issue here, the PM is trying to do three jobs - P&L, cashflow, and KPI comparison. There is no single approach which can do that effectively.

I'm not worried about costs tonight, and profit monitors. I spent the the day getting my accounts ready for 2017, I should have spent more,

Finest

kowtow wrote: »

If I was improving the profit monitor then for comparison purposes I'd strip the whole lot out and put in a standardized charge for the acres involved.

Regardless of that the loan capital repayment would never be a P&L item so shouldn't be in a profit statement or monitor of any kind, it's just a balance sheet and cash issue.

The notional land charge would satisfy the need to compare with other farms or impute a cost of production.

You can see the issue here, the PM is trying to do three jobs - P&L, cashflow, and KPI comparison. There is no single approach which can do that effectively.

With the greatest of respect you sound like a brilliant accountant but the trouble is a lot of accountants tend to over complicate matters when talking to farmers . Farming is a complex business and with the vast bulk of farmers not doing a profit monitor at all I would suggest baby steps . I'd say 70 % of farmers that have done pms don't grasp even the basic figures of gross output variable costs and gross margins. You and alps suggestions might be relevant to a tiny minority of farmers but would over complicate what we have already

Finest

mahoney_j wrote: »

Right fully costed Labour for a start including family Labour ,land charge ,capital repayments on farm loans .these are a start and should be included for any published figures .look at greenfield there fully costed cop is in mid 30s I think and pm is low to mid 20s if I’m correct
There’s is many other costs like drawings ,payement to parents tax etc which are costs to the farm and have to be paid from it .some of these are personal and understandable people don’t want to divulge these .a change of figure from cop as is given currently certainly needs changing

The world couldn't care less about a lot of the above for example who forces anybody to pay their parents what you mention in the second paragraph is all personal expediture not cop , if a farmer smokes 40 a day do you put that in as well where do you stop you end up with a meaningless jumble . I challenge you to do a pm and just look down as far as gross margin you'll find it interesting , beyond gross margin do what you like you'll find it impossible to make meaningful comparisons except within your own business year on year . Despite that I say don't knock the first part of it .

Termsandco

kowtow wrote: »

If you want to compare the efficiency of farm vs farm, or the impact of different farming systems, then the only way I can see to do it where labour is concerned is to express labour in some standard form - hours worked, no. of full time equivalents, whatever.

The AI example was a bit tongue in cheek, but if you were to consider zero grazing in to a robot, for example, vs. a traditional herringbone then the comparison would be more meaningful.

It also has the advantage that hours worked can be multiplied by a standardized labour charge to produce a realistic cost of production.

While I agree that would form the best method of comparison, how likely is it that farmers will start to record the hours worked on farm year on year.
Most farmer surveys suggest farmers work between 60-80 hrs a week which is between 1000 and 2000 hrs above the standard workers 2000 annual hours. If you put in a figure of €20/hr for the first 2000 hrs you get a basic wage of €40,000. Overtime of €25/hour for 1000 hrs and 2000 hours is €25,000 and €50,000 so the average wage a farmer should be inputting into a pm is between €40,000 and €90,000.

Finest

alps wrote: »

The original gripe here came from what I have maintained for a long time is the misuse of data...

Data can only be used for the purpose for which it is collected..


I've done PM since its inceptuon many moons ago soley for the purpose of cost comparison with others in a discussion group who knew and understood each other's business inside out.Concerned that our data was being put to use beyond this purpose, we had an agreement or understanding from teagasc that the sole use of our data was for ourselves. This was not respected, the incidents which I won't go into here.

The discussion group we're in, now work with a private advisor. We work with a very good financial template, that works far more effectively for cost comparison purposes, coupling up as a 5 or 10 year cash flow projection tool..

But the real McCoy of cost comparison tools is the European Dairy farmers one. The information derived from it is astonishing, detailed towards the needs of your discussion, be it break even points, family farm profit, or full economic costs.

KPI's can be presented in a graphical way, much as kowtow suggests, with the meaningful figures plotted on an X and Y axis...

For instance Milk yield can be plotted against meal fed,
Depreciation can be plotted against hours worked, output can be plotted against land rental value..

You end up with scatter graphs, clusters with a few outliers....these outliers being the learning points..

The cost of either of these groups is no higher that a teagasc fee..(which we pay also btw)

Good man alps if it's far away it's got to be better 180 euro to join a pan European club whose members farming systems have no relation to ours can hardly be good value if all you need is a bit of financial analysis . Of course If it's done by your neighbour just like the kpmg milk price audit it's got to be confusing and ineffective . Your average private consultant charges at least 4 times the teagasc fee but maybe you've buyers group type discount . In all the years of doing pms I've never seen my info published anywhere just a broad generalisation of everyone's figures. Your group needs to get over its sense of importance you're just another small number of farmers like the rest of us, Wall Street or any other Street doesn't hang on your every move .

Buford T. Justice XIX

Kerry increase milk price by 1c a litre.

Calfscour

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Kerry increase milk price by 1c a litre.

Scannlon seems to be a bit more pro farmer then his predecessor.

whelan2

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Kerry increase milk price by 1c a litre.

To what? Was there a milk auction during the week?

Buford T. Justice XIX

whelan2 wrote: »

To what? Was there a milk auction during the week?

32c @3.6/3.3



GDT was unchanged as well, stopping the fall in the previous 4 auctions even though it was small in each.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Calfscour wrote: »

Scannlon seems to be a bit more pro farmer then his predecessor.

I have a chair that would be more pro farmer than Stan:P

whelan2

Did lakelands announce their price yet?

whelan2

Glanbia base price 31cpl plus 1 cent Co op support.....

whelan2

Lakelands up to 32.78 cpl

orm0nd

whelan2 wrote: »

Lakelands up to 32.78 cpl

and €20/ton discount on fertilizer,

whelan2

orm0nd wrote: »

and €20/ton discount on fertilizer,

I was hopeful that glanbia would pay out the bonus from the first 6 months of the year this month but it wasn't to be. Fair play to lakelands

freedominacup

whelan2 wrote: »

orm0nd wrote: »

and €20/ton discount on fertilizer,

I was hopeful that glanbia would pay out the bonus from the first 6 months of the year this month but it wasn't to be. Fair play to lakelands

Any guess as to how much per litre it's likely to be?

whelan2

freedominacup wrote: »

Any guess as to how much per litre it's likely to be?

I don't know. Hopefully 2cpl. What do you think?

jaymla627

whelan2 wrote: »

I don't know. Hopefully 2cpl. What do you think?

Is it even a certainty their is going to be a top-up at all

Mooooo

How are lads looking 're yer own supplies and and what ye predicted ye'd be at thru milk contracts etc? I'm well back, 40% nearly on where I said I hoped to be but that is tb related more than weather related for me. If fodder reserves stay tight into winter there could be a lot of cows dried off to reduce intakes and allow time to maintain body condition so prices will want to remain high enough if the coops want milk production into the winter...

visatorro

Mooooo wrote:

How are lads looking 're yer own supplies and and what ye predicted ye'd be at thru milk contracts etc? I'm well back, 40% nearly on where I said I hoped to be but that is tb related more than weather related for me. If fodder reserves stay tight into winter there could be a lot of cows dried off to reduce intakes and allow time to maintain body condition so prices will want to remain high enough if the coops want milk production into the winter...

Production should be around the same, it's just costing a small fortune.

freedominacup

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