Milk Price III

hurling_lad

Kerry2016 wrote: »

In Ag College we were told that if you are someone that's turning your farm into a dairy farm you'd need to be starting with at least 90 cows for it to be worthwhile… if you were in a greenfield site you can take it for granted it would cost €5,000/cow to start the whole thing off, you'd have a lot of cows milked by the time you'd the initial outlay paid off. Would someone in good land not be better off farming part time with some dry cattle and letting them run and then having a full time job as well

If you are working full-time at something else, is it worthwhile to bother with farming at all for the level of profit that you would make off dry cattle?

I would say no.

Mooooo

Any news on milk price or what coops are thinking?

Wildsurfer

Talking to board member on Dairygold yesterday and he expects price to hold untill after peak but to drop then. He said the higher solids will carry us through then!

orm0nd

Wildsurfer wrote: »

Talking to board member on Dairygold yesterday and he expects price to hold untill after peak but to drop then. He said the higher solids will carry us through then!

this is what they've (all co ops not just DG) been advocating all along, Ornua are even saying likewise when pushed

would be great to pull production & make the feckers pay through the nose for it... won't happen though ..paddy will play straight in their barrow with the meal & fert. merchants smiling

Fixture

orm0nd wrote: »

this is what they've (all co ops not just DG) been advocating all along, Ornua are even saying likewise when pushed

would be great to pull production & make the feckers pay through the nose for it... won't happen though ..paddy will play straight in their barrow with the meal & fert. merchants smiling

All depends what happens in NZ, USA and the big EU producers Germany, France & Holland. We don't really matter to global trade

freedominacup

Fixture wrote: »

All depends what happens in NZ, USA and the big EU producers Germany, France & Holland. We don't really matter to global trade

We matter more than you might think. Pre quota abolition we basically produced the EU surplus. The EU had around 5% of it's production available for export outside the bloc. We had around 5% of EU production and exported 80%of what we produced. Only around 75 billion litres traded internationally. Our5 billion litres available for export not insignificant in that context.

alps

freedominacup wrote: »

We matter more than you might think. Pre quota abolition we basically produced the EU surplus. The EU had around 5% of it's production available for export outside the bloc. We had around 5% of EU production and exported 80%of what we produced. Only around 75 billion litres traded internationally. Our5 billion litres available for export not insignificant in that context.

Big time..

Buford T. Justice XIX

The off topic posts were moved into their own thread, link below.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103166418#post103166418

BTJ.

Farmer Ed

I don't always agree with the views of the farm organizations but hard to disagree with this and about time too. http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/labour-must-be-included-in-the-cost-of-irish-milk-production/

rangler1

Farmer Ed wrote: »

I don't always agree with the views of the farm organizations but hard to disagree with this and about time too. http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/labour-must-be-included-in-the-cost-of-irish-milk-production/

Won't make a bit of difference to your milk price, you'll get the market value and that'll be it.....bit of a joke really..
Sure I might as well throw a €100k labour cost on my sheep enterprise....might get €15/kg next autumn

Farmer Ed

rangler1 wrote: »

Won't make a bit of difference to your milk price, you'll get the market value and that'll be it.....bit of a joke really..
Sure I might as well throw a €100k labour cost on my sheep enterprise....might get €15/kg next autumn

Maybe if you took your labour costs in to account you might find you could make more money working in McDonald's? That is really the whole point of it I would have thought? Plus if we are all running around like headless chickens and not putting any value on our time, yes it does lead to milk being produced using free labour. Last time I heard free labour and slavery were pretty closely related.

jaymla627

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Maybe if you took your labour costs in to account you might find you could make more money working in McDonald's? That is really the whole point of it I would have thought? Plus if we are all running around like headless chickens and not putting any value on our time, yes it does lead to milk being produced using free labour. Last time I heard free labour and slavery were pretty closely related.

Hopefully it actually costs in at least a tenner a hour the "elite" group of lads who get students every spring for calving, have to laugh when i see lads spouting on about their low cost easy run 90% calved in 6 week systems and on the same foot been given two students in some cases to get them over calving at 300 odd euro a week total cost.....

freedominacup

jaymla627 wrote: »

Hopefully it actually costs in at least a tenner a hour the "elite" group of lads who get students every spring for calving, have to laugh when i see lads spouting on about their low cost easy run 90% calved in 6 week systems and on the same foot been given two students in some cases to get them over calving at 300 odd euro a week total cost.....

According to the comic Greenfields weren't even paying minimum wage to the night calver. 11 hours a night for six weeks for a stated cost of €3000.

mf240

freedominacup wrote: »

According to the comic Greenfields weren't even paying minimum wage to the night calver. 11 hours a night for six weeks for a stated cost of €3000.

Ah but look at the experience he was getting.

Those high ebi cows cslve on there own anyway. I think the ones over 200 ebi are able to put iodine of the calves navel

hurling_lad

jaymla627 wrote: »

Hopefully it actually costs in at least a tenner a hour the "elite" group of lads who get students every spring for calving, have to laugh when i see lads spouting on about their low cost easy run 90% calved in 6 week systems and on the same foot been given two students in some cases to get them over calving at 300 odd euro a week total cost.....

I don't see a problem. If low-cost labour is available at a busy time, any businessperson would use it.

There's a reason that students/apprentices aren't eligible for full minimum wage be that in farming, plumbing or whatever sector.

rangler1

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Maybe if you took your labour costs in to account you might find you could make more money working in McDonald's? That is really the whole point of it I would have thought? Plus if we are all running around like headless chickens and not putting any value on our time, yes it does lead to milk being produced using free labour. Last time I heard free labour and slavery were pretty closely related.

Your net profit can be your labour cost and you can decide whether you're better off working in Mc Donalds or not, but highlighting it to Tesco and whingeing that it's not enough won't be worth the bother I can assure you

jaymla627

hurling_lad wrote: »

I don't see a problem. If low-cost labour is available at a busy time, any businessperson would use it.

There's a reason that students/apprentices aren't eligible for full minimum wage be that in farming, plumbing or whatever sector.

The problem is we have teagasc throwing out figures at these guys opendays who ritually get students every year about how efficent and low cost their systems are, take lads that are crowing about running 200 plus cows as mostly one man bands but routinely get two students to get them over the spring, on a normal unit who have to actually source labour and pay accordingly they would have to be allowing minimum 800 odd euro a week if they need outside help at 70 hours a week provided lads can even be sourced...
The farm with two students is only looking at a 300 euro a week outlay for 12 weeks this is a saving of 6 plus grand that goes towards inflating their profit pet hectare figures and inturn lends itself to the bulls##t cost op production of low 20's we see been published

Farmer Ed

rangler1 wrote: »

Your net profit can be your labour cost and you can decide whether you're better off working in Mc Donalds or not, but highlighting it to Tesco and whingeing that it's not enough won't be worth the bother I can assure you

Already did that. Turns out my net profit is so high I'd have to get a job in a strip club to make it worth while to pack in the farming. Either that or get in to agri politics. Apparently that has more perks than people think . I don't see the problem in farmers valuing their time? How is it not a cost?

Farmer Ed

jaymla627 wrote: »

The problem is we have teagasc throwing out figures at these guys opendays who ritually get students every year about how efficent and low cost their systems are, take lads that are crowing about running 200 plus cows as mostly one man bands but routinely get two students to get them over the spring, on a normal unit who have to actually source labour and pay accordingly they would have to be allowing minimum 800 odd euro a week if they need outside help at 70 hours a week provided lads can even be sourced...
The farm with two students is only looking at a 300 euro a week outlay for 12 weeks this is a saving of 6 plus grand that goes towards inflating their profit pet hectare figures and inturn lends itself to the bulls##t cost op production of low 20's we see been published

Do you know how much it costs BMW to produce a car or how much it costs the dentist to fix your tooth or the the cost of any other product or service you care to mention? Yet we are the only group who are actively encouraged to publish figures that exaggerate how cheaply we can produce our product.

If you stop and think about that for a minute? It makes us farmers pretty unique in the world of business don't you think? Or is such a practice really that much in our best interest?

whelan2

Any word on March milk price?

Buford T. Justice XIX

Holding, I heard. Supposed to stay for the next 2 months as well and seems to be dropping then

yewtree

jaymla627 wrote: »

The problem is we have teagasc throwing out figures at these guys opendays who ritually get students every year about how efficent and low cost their systems are, take lads that are crowing about running 200 plus cows as mostly one man bands but routinely get two students to get them over the spring, on a normal unit who have to actually source labour and pay accordingly they would have to be allowing minimum 800 odd euro a week if they need outside help at 70 hours a week provided lads can even be sourced...
The farm with two students is only looking at a 300 euro a week outlay for 12 weeks this is a saving of 6 plus grand that goes towards inflating their profit pet hectare figures and inturn lends itself to the bulls##t cost op production of low 20's we see been published

6 grand on 300 cows adds up to €20 cow it's hardly going to make or break a system. It's adds up to .4 cent litre.
Calving in 90 % six weeks is labour efficient spending half the year calving cows and breeding and calving at the same time isnt going to solve labour issues on farm.
Any lads that get students should be treating them well. Students are also getting valuable experience.

GrasstoMilk

I know apprentice electritians only getting that sort of money.
Why should any apprentice get big money when he's coming to you to learn.
I couldn't walk into a building site in the morning and start pulling wires here there and yonder and get 1000€ handed to me on Friday evening and I haven't a bulls notion what I'm at.

freedominacup

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I know apprentice electritians only getting that sort of money.
Why should any apprentice get big money when he's coming to you to learn.
I couldn't walk into a building site in the morning and start pulling wires here there and yonder and get 1000€ handed to me on Friday evening and I haven't a bulls notion what I'm at.

Very few trade apprentices have any experience whatsoever starting off. Not a valid comparison. What are guys in their final year getting? How much over 40 hours do they work for this wage? How much weekend work? I've heard very few good stories in relation to his farm students/apprentices are treated. Endless horror stories. A friend of my father's with no farming bacjground asked him once what qualifications you needed to become a master farmer. Oul boy was real sharp the same night. "A spare room" was his reply. Yer man nearly choked on his pint with the laughter. If you knew the master farmer in question you'd see the humour too.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Glanbia hold price.

Check out this Article I found - http://www.farmersjournal.ie/glanbia-sets-milk-price-for-march-269105

Water John

Aren't they out early for them? Is this to encourage others not to increase?
Usually Lakeland and West Cork are first, if I'm not mistaken?

whelan2

Water John wrote: »

Aren't they out early for them? Is this to encourage others not to increase?
Usually Lakeland and West Cork are first, if I'm not mistaken?

Aye indeed. Back to the old tricks again

kowtow

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I couldn't walk into a building site in the morning and start pulling wires here there and yonder and get 1000€ handed to me on Friday evening and I haven't a bulls notion what I'm at.

Good point.

You'd need a hard hat.

Wildsurfer

freedominacup wrote: »

Very few trade apprentices have any experience whatsoever starting off. Not a valid comparison. What are guys in their final year getting? How much over 40 hours do they work for this wage? How much weekend work? I've heard very few good stories in relation to his farm students/apprentices are treated. Endless horror stories. A friend of my father's with no farming bacjground asked him once what qualifications you needed to become a master farmer. Oul boy was real sharp the same night. "A spare room" was his reply. Yer man nearly choked on his pint with the laughter. If you knew the master farmer in question you'd see the humour too.

Do you know many farmers getting 2 students? I've never heard of any as there are not enough students to go around. If students are being treated badly it will get back to the college, and the next crop of students will definitely here about it and can refuse to go on placement there. Students get 122 minimum for 35 hours but most working at least 10 hours above that so prob getting closer to €250 if not more. And believe me Free there is days when youd want to be paid to have one around!

Farmer Ed

I suppose the student issue while relevant, is really a side story to the fact that for the first time ever an Irish farm organization is suggesting we do our costs of production the same way as they do in every other European country and that includes putting a value on time. That for me is a milestone in the way farmers view themselves in this country. I for one certainty hope it comes to pass.

whelan2

Farmer Ed wrote: »

I suppose the student issue while relevant, is really a side story to the fact that for the first time ever an Irish farm organization is suggesting we do our costs of production the same way as they do in every other European country and that includes putting a value on time. That for me is a milestone in the way farmers view themselves in this country. I for one certainty hope it comes to pass.

Does it matter though if it's a student/family labour, fair enough its cheap labour but costs differ on all farms anyway

Farmer Ed

whelan2 wrote: »

Does it matter though if it's a student/family labour, fair enough its cheap labour but costs differ on all farms anyway

I don't know the nuts and bolts of what is being proposed but I would imagine there would be some standard basic calculation. Pitting one farmer against the other shouldn't be the objective but rather bring a bit of reality in to how we calculate our costs for our own personal benefit. The way its set up at the moment is farmers are competing with each other as to who can produce the cheapest. Ultimately is that healthy? Back to the analogy of your BMW. Would you pay more for it than you might for your Fiat if you knew it cost less to produce than the Fiat? If we are to sell on quality. Our low cost of production is the last thing we should be highlighting surely?

Brown Podzol

The full cost of producing milk in Ireland is already available from IFCN, which Teagasc is a member of. Analysed in IFJ last Nov.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/milk-production-costs-worldwide-234776

Cost indicator: The IFCN uses the indicator cost of milk production only which can be directly related to a milk price. This cost includes all costs from the profit & loss account of the farm. From this cost level, the non-milk returns from sales of cull cows, heifers, calves, manure, etc. and also returns from coupled direct payments have been deducted. Furthermore, the opportunity costs for own labour, land and capital are also included. For creation of the world map, the average size farm from each country was used.

Water John

Don't think anyone has heard a Teagasc or any other type of advisor mention 33cent/l before.
Thanks for that, Podzol.

Farmer Ed

Water John wrote: »

Don't think anyone has heard a Teagasc or any other type of advisor mention 33cent/l before.
Thanks for that, Podzol.

Let's hope for a 1c rise next month so that the average Irish Joe Farmer can actually break even. The one glaring thing from their website is that we are not as low cost as we think. $40 to $50/dollars to produce 100 kgs of Irish milk ?

kowtow

Farmer Ed wrote:

I don't always agree with the views of the farm organizations but hard to disagree with this and about time too.

This call by Icsma to include labour in cost of production is a very important step and ... in my personal opinion... reflects a view which has been expressed here and on social media many times in recent years by many farmers.

It doesn't matter so much the precise basis upon which COP is calculated, that can and could be a subject for endless discussion, but the principle that dairy farms have zero labour costs because they are typically staffed by families is an unhelpful one leading to unrealistic expectations from the farm upwards and nasty bumps in the business model if expansion is on the cards.

The basis for this is actually already present in the 2011 teagasc report on competitiveness. It's a while since I read it but my recollection is that whilst Ireland is competitive on a free land and labour basis it is a long way down the list when these are fully costed. I was a bit surprised when I first read the harvest 2020 spiel to find that this report was already in circulation and in some ways the two appear irreconcilable.

What will be interesting in the coming years is to see whether and how the narrative changes. The 2011 report is pretty clear that the full COP picture in Ireland is primarily (inversely) driven by herd size and scale, a constant challenge and something which is perhaps at odds with the family farming model so widely touted.

I'd like to see a more comprehensive version of that analysis updated with the lessons learnt in the meantime, and perhaps taking in a fuller study of the top line... the nature of marginal milk in the world market, the possible futures of liquid and seasonal milk especially post brexit, and the processing landscape.

To my untutored and less than objective eye I detect two different strains of farm emerging... on the one hand those seeking scale and expansion, often highly focused on solids EBI and fertility and often x breeding.... essentially chasing maximum solids from minimum labour units with expansion limited by the milking platform(s)...

And on the other hand a more nuanced version of the 'typical' family farm. Often sticking with b+w and often sceptical of EBI. More breeding for type and more emphasis on yield. Some of these farms already milk AYR and others will trade a tight calving pattern for more production.

Around me at least both approaches have benefitted from better grazing management, visibly, in the few years I have been here. It strikes me that the second type might have as much to gain from really optimising their baling, buffer feeding, and possibly FTY as the first type have from genomics, EBI, and tight calving patterns.

Most public commentary, and the processing chain, seems to me to assume that the first type of farm is the only valid model and act as if the national herd would only conform everyone would be happy and profitable. To me this seems to miss some valuable opportunities in the short term and risk a bit of a one trick pony in the long term.

Is there really all that much difference between these two imagined models? Will the two roads they are travelling converge or diverge in the future?

yewtree

Is there really all that much difference between these two imagined models? Will the two roads they are travelling converge or diverge in the future?[/quote]

I think the main difference is the added complexity in AYR calving with different groups of stock, two calving and breeding seasons.
Both systems are profitable and good managers will make any system work. An average manager is better off in a simple system.

whelan2

Glanbia milk payments are in bank account today

orm0nd

whelan2 wrote: »

Glanbia milk payments are in bank account today

Arrabawn are in as well. Well just passing through in my case.

freedominacup

orm0nd wrote: »

Arrabawn are in as well. Well just passing through in my case.

Well just as long as you get to sit down with them for five mins and have a cuppa it won't be too bad.

Buford T. Justice XIX

GDT up 3.1%

Butter up 2.9% and Skim up 7.1%.

Expect to see some movement out of EU stores this month, hopefully. It should help put a base on the milk price for the Summer hopefully.

Mooooo

Dairygold holding at 31cent

yewtree

Aurivo holding 32.4 but that includes early milk bonus of 1.4 cent which will be finished next month

degetme

yewtree wrote: »

Aurivo holding 32.4 but that includes early milk bonus of 1.4 cent which will be finished next month

Is that on all milk supplies in Jan Feb march April? None of that with Kerry

Buford T. Justice XIX

degetme wrote: »

Is that on all milk supplies in Jan Feb march April? None of that with Kerry

Kerry haven't even finished paying us for 2015 milk yet:D

yewtree

degetme wrote: »

Is that on all milk supplies in Jan Feb march April? None of that with Kerry

Only paid on Feb and March milk. Not sure what the story is with liquid suppliers with coop

degetme

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

degetme wrote: »

Is that on all milk supplies in Jan Feb march April? None of that with Kerry

Kerry haven't even finished paying us for 2015 milk yet:D

Is there talks of a top up on last years supply? Got 33.4cl of that shower today

Buford T. Justice XIX

degetme wrote: »

Is there talks of a top up on last years supply? Got 33.4cl of that shower today

It depends on the result of the mediation/arbitration 'discussion'. If its won, there will be, if not, i wouldn't say so.

degetme

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

degetme wrote: »

Is there talks of a top up on last years supply? Got 33.4cl of that shower today

It depends on the result of the mediation/arbitration 'discussion'. If its won, there will be, if not, i wouldn't say so.

would you know when the result will be? I heard there might be a top up on last years supply Saturday night but I was after a few pints so things could have got mixed up

cute geoge

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It depends on the result of the mediation/arbitration 'discussion'. If its won, there will be, if not, i wouldn't say so.

When can we expect a result of arbitration