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Milk Price III

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    Around me it's the big tillage lads that are the ruthless ones and have been for the last 20 years. Funny how they never get described as greedy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    Dairy farmers blamed for everything



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,842 Mod ✭✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions


    There’s gentlemen and there’s greedy men everywhere.

    No matter the sector or the parish.

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk


    100%

    tillage farmers can take on a couple hundred acres and nothing said but if a dairy farmer did they’re greedy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭straight


    Greedy is just a sh1tty word that gets thrown around by alot of people. The only thing dairy farmers are greedy for is work just like every other farmer.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    while i agree that it is a fair amount of debt to take on.... i doubt if that farmer will stay at 110 cows... say he goes upto 160/170 cows... and should he increase his litres per cow to 7k litres he wouldnt be doing too bad then...



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    How would the sums look if he has to reduce his cow numbers by 30 % due to banding/derogation abolition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    He has 120 cubicles according to the posts on it. Adding another 50-60 cows will not be debt free.

    Going from 110-160 means an added labour unit. Minimum wage labour will be hitting 20/ hour when all costs are factored in on 4-5 years time. That is the margin 40-50 cows. If he has to rent land for the extra cows add 30k/ year for that.

    Interest on debt will be gone up by 3%+ by the middle of this year. Young lad locally similar sized farm( admittedly it was a former dairy farm) I would say, debt free I imagine in his early thirties, did a bit if traveling came home and did the green cert. At present he is milking 65 cows. He is going to go to 80. They always had a small beef operation, he intends to hold onto the beef. Only 12 unit milking parlour and uncovered slurry tanks.

    His priority is to covered the slurry tanks. Considering a contractor for slurry but after the tanks are sorted he will see if LESS is an option. He thinks he will source second hand units to add numbers to the parlour and adapt existing parlour. He has joined the new ABP under 24 month scheme. Hung most of his heifers before housing. Hung 15+ Friesian bullocks last week at 1500ish average.

    I wonder who will sleep best at night for the next 20 years

    Add in TB or any disease outbreak. Milk price going sub 35cL for 18 months.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Owing a few pound isn't about getting sleep, tis about getting up in the morning!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭awaywithyou


    take it Bass u dont believe in spending money to make money... the price of milk has been good since 2013.. the only exception was 2016 and if i remember correctly that downturn in price didnt last very long certainly didnt last 18mths.. that downturn was brought on by the abolition of quotas... since then things have been good..

    we have a fine sum of money spent here in past 10 years... alot more than 650k.. and we are doing grand... im sleeping fine thank god... though not at the moment with cows calving... progress can be made out of cashflow but cornners will be cut.. get a loan and do a right job on your project and it'll pay for itself....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It's owing too much where the problem is. He has a turnover that is limited. For 600k he would have bought another farm. 30% that amount should have developed his farm if spread over 5-10 years.

    I imagine you have a good few more cows than 110. He will still be spenyand borrowing for the next couple of decades. I always spend to get a return but if it can be done cheaper I take that option.

    As a young farmer he was entitled to the 60% TAMS grant. 70k the last time, this time it's 90K for 5 years. There will be another tranche post 2027. 200k+vat of a spend and probably less than 100k of it his own money

    I am not one for drudgery either. I have no problems borrowing but it has to be paid back. The abolition of quotas had nothing to do with the price drop. Only Ireland in Europe added additional capacity most of the rest of Europe did not. It was milk produced off cheap grain that was the issue

    Since then production in the US and Australia has stalled while demand has increased. However never presume that another crisis will not happen.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭straight


    The price was crap until the past 2 years as far as I'm concerned. Only one way stock numbers are going for farmers from now on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,703 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    Did anyone see their Dec milk price on glanbiaconnect.com? Mine is just under a euro a litre, that can't be correct?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Why not solids would be very high, add in most co-ops are paying a seasonality bonus. Small dairy farmer near me and he milks all year around. What ever the base price of milk December milk was always nearly 150%/ of that price unless you had freshly calved cows

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭dar31


    I’d say the 1c/lt for the year top up has been applied on only Decembers milk.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭Injuryprone


    In dairygold anyway it's the way they account for the end of year bonus. They divide it into what ever litres you produced in December. Don't know what happens of you're dry for the month



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk


    That young lad be better off to get the calculator out again

    if he was running a well run operation he’d have made 1500€ profit /cow this year,

    80 cows through a 12 unit is a piece of piss vs rearing bullocks for 20 months to make 250€ a hd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Say 5-600/ head. He is carrying no debt. So he probably has a higher margin. He will probably get to 80 cows without too much effort.

    On your figures on his 65 cows he had 100 k this year. Profit on the drystock may be small, but it's also very little effort.

    At 3k debt/ cow for 100 cows it would be costing him 22.5k/ year over 20 year or 225/ cow.

    You can look at that two ways its 225/cows. If he stayed at 65 cows it's it's 650/ cow on the 35 he is not milking, however he will probably hit 80 without effort in 1-2 years the twenty cows he would not be milking are now have to a debt repayment of 1100/ cow. At that stage the beef operation is probably making up the difference.

    If he decides to get rid of the beef operation five years time he can push to 100 cows with little effort.

    I will not bother doing the figures at 6.5k/ cow.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Saw this article last week in the FI. This lad was a very successful beef farmer and switched to dairy but held on to the beef operation for the stock he produced.

    Now he was lucky in that it had previously been a dairy farm and the old milking parlour was still there. Looks a tidy operation.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭ginger22


    If its such a good gig you should switch from the beef yourself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk


    Would you screen shot the article and post it ?


    I had the indo subscription but cancelled it because I could never log into articles through online portals



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Dairy Farm Profiles

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    Why one of Ireland’s best beef farmers switched to dairy

    Michael Murphy, a former Tipp senior hurler, felt his award-winning calf to beef enterprise wasn’t making enough money so he turned to dairy – but he kept the attention to detail that had been earning him double the national average gross margin/ha in 2015

    14

    Big change: Michael Murphy on his farm outside Nenagh in Tipperary, where he switched to dairy after winning awards for his beef system. Photos: Niall Hurson


    Niall Hurson

    January 26 2023 12:24 PM


    In 2015, Michael Murphy was crowned Ireland’s beef farmer of the year, having established a reputation for doing the simple things right on his calf to beef rearing enterprise.

    At that time, the farm, outside Nenagh in Co Tipperary, had a stocking rate of 2.22LU/ha, delivering a gross margin of €1,143/ha, which was double the national average of €572/ha.

    Today, the make-up of the farm is much different, but the attention to detail and eye-catching results remain the same.

    “I was rearing 250 calves every spring, buying them at two weeks old. That was damn tough work. The first 12 weeks of a calf’s life are the most important,” Michael says.

    “I felt I just wasn’t getting paid enough for the amount of time and effort I was putting into the system. My last good year in dairy beef was 2015. After that it was downhill even though I was doing the job well.”



    14

    Michael previously milked 90 cows on the farm up until 1998 when the herd was lost to a brucellosis outbreak.

    Michael previously milked 90 cows on the farm up until 1998, when the herd was lost to a brucellosis outbreak.

    He also has a rich history in hurling, having won a senior National League medal with Tipperary, along with a minor and two Under-21 All-Irelands.

    “I retired from hurling at the age of 21,” he says. “My father died suddenly at 55 years of age in 1982. I was going into Thurles five nights per week, I was a ‘professional’ back then.

    “I said to the county secretary one night, any chance you could get in the farm relief to do an evening milking for me, to take the bit of pressure off me. The answer I got back was ‘Michael, we’d set a very bad example if we did that’. That more or less made up my mind on the GAA.”

    Michael began to consider the switch back to dairying again in the late 2010s.


    Read More

    “I was wondering then if I went back to dairying would my son Odhrán have any interest in helping out,” he says.

    “As he got older, I kept asking the question. He used to go milking for some of the neighbours so that was a good start anyway. When he got to 18 and did his Leaving Cert I asked him if he was prepared to back me up, and he said he would.

    “I spoke at the beef open day above in Grange in 2016, and I was asked if I would ever think of going back to dairying and I said ‘no I’m too old’. So they’d have a damn good laugh at me now at 63 years of age back stuck in the middle of it.”


    14

    “They are 70% Holstein and 30% British Friesian, and are producing a decent calf for the beef enterprise.”

    Michael also farms alongside his wife Olivia, who works full-time with Tipperary ETB.

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    “We also have three daughters — Elaine, Eimear and Miriam,” he says. “They buy a calf each year and they are the couple of the best looked-after calves on the farm. The girls help me milk when I need them.”

    After settling on the decision to go back to dairy, Michael bought a herd of cows from Seamus Mescal in Aglish, Co Waterford.

    “I didn’t buy that herd based on EBI,” he says. “It was the last thing that I asked him about. I went and looked at the cows to see the physical appearance of the herd to see how good they were structurally.

    “The farmer gave me his milk dockets for the year, which very few lads would give you. I was taken aback by the production, the fat and protein they were producing.

    “I liked the herd the first day I saw them. He wanted to keep the herd together — he was that type of a man, a lovely man.


    “He had loads of interest from lads wanting to buy 20 or 30 but I’d say I was the only one that would take the 77 cows. I was a lucky man to get my hands on them, he had a brilliant job done.

    “They are 70pc Holstein and 30pc British Friesian, and are producing a decent calf for the beef enterprise.”


    14

    The farm is 600 feet above sea level.

    The cows are producing on average 7,500L per lactation and milk solids over 600kg.

    The replacement heifer calves are calving at two years old and the Hereford and Angus calves are finished at 17 to 18 months through the ABP Advantage Beef Programme.

    The old milking parlour on the 83ha (205ac) farm was still intact when Michael first began milking again in 2020.


    “All I had to do was change the bulk tank. We’re milking 80 cows now and I’m not in derogation, I’m farming under 170kg N/ha,” he says.

    “Those saying you need to be milking 120 cows, that’s rubbish– what’s happening there is they are being advised to avail of grants and they end up spending €150-250k on a new milking parlour and facilities.

    “Ask any sales rep and they will tell you it’s a pleasure to go in to the smaller farmers. They have time to talk to you, give you money and are a pleasure to deal with.”

    Despite having vastly scaled back his calf to beef enterprise, Michael still maintains the highest standards when it comes to calf rearing.


    14

    The replacement heifer calves are calving at two years old and the hereford and angus calves are finished at 17 to 18 months through the ABP Advantage Beef Programme.

    “It’s all about the first 12 weeks of life, whether it’s a breeding female or a beef animal,” he says. A vaccination programme needs to be in place for the lifetime of every animal born on the farm.


    “I wouldn’t be achieving the figures I’m achieving only for the vaccination programme. I can’t afford a breakdown at any stage with any disease or virus because if I do then I’m in trouble with the 170kg limit to stay out of derogation.

    “I’m a big believer in two bags of milk replacer for every calf. I use two Volac automatic calf feeders. They are brilliant. I’d find it very hard now to rear a calf without them.”

    Michael says he and Odhrán are happy with their system and have no immediate plans for expansion.

    “Odhrán is in Australia at the moment, he wants to see how green the far-away fields are,” Michael says. “He’s there for the winter. He has a masters in agricultural science so he can do pretty much what he likes.

    “You’ll find in a lot of father and son partnerships, the father is the mainstay or the backbone because he’s always there while the younger generations are off at matches and maybe a young family.


    “I’m 64 in May. I play a bit of golf every Sunday and I’d like to maybe do a bit more of that. I’ll stay going as long as I can. I just have had a huge interest in farming all of my life.”

    ‘Farmers need to be able to see the AI bull they’re using’

    Michael Murphy is calling on AI companies to show pictures of their bulls in catalogues and when requested by farmers.

    “The dairy farmer has no say about having a look at what bull he’s using,” he says. “Last year I picked out three or four Friesian AI bulls and I couldn’t see a picture or anything and that’s leaning on me now.

    “I’ve had a lot of argy-bargy between a couple of AI companies over the last 12 months over this. I’ve gotten the hairiest of excuses from them, that the Department won’t allow people in.


    “I can understand that part of it from a disease point of view. But they are using every excuse under the sun not to show you a picture of the bull.

    “Any good stockman, especially a guy like me that’s finishing the cattle, needs to be able to see the bull you’re using. Even a photo would put your mind at ease.

    “Last year I dealt with Progressive Genetics and Dovea Genetics. I wrote a letter to Dovea, but I never got any response.

    “You wouldn’t ring up enquiring about a bull advertisement in the Farming Independent and say ‘I’ll take him’ without seeing him. All you see in the AI catalogue is the dam or the grand-dam of the bull.

    “This year I’m going to go through the catalogue, pick a couple of bulls, and if I can’t get a picture of the bulls I’m going to go out and buy two or three stock bulls.


    “I consider I have a super herd, production-wise, with the calf I’m producing, and I want to try and keep it there.

    “My average EBI is about €170 and EBI is being bandied about by the experts as the greatest thing since penicillin… and I would put a serious question mark over that.

    “I reckon the higher up in EBI you go with your herd, there will be major issues down the line in terms of strength and power within your herd.

    “I’m 600 feet above sea level here and you could have some damn tough days even during the grazing season and you’d need a good strong robust cow that will weather all of that.

    “Listening to my vet, they are having more and more C-sections with high-EBI heifers just carrying Friesian. They find that this is going to be a big issue down the line.”

    ,,......,........,.............,.....

    That is the complete article

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I put up the article as part of a reply we have had over high cost switching from beef to dairying one of which worked out at 6.5k/cow which I taught excessive.

    I have slightly less than 70acres. 60 in one block of which about 5 is marsh. It's not viable as a dairy farm.

    Even if I had a 200 acre farm I be more inclined to work and farm on the side. It is what I was bought up with and what I was used to, and retire when you could not combine the two. With beef it's my opinion an effective net margin of 300/ acre on fairly decent lands is possible if you farm it right and higher if you are better at it.

    However I think what the lad in the article did is much more viable long term than some farm conversion's. The unit is possibly to operate comfortably with one labour unit, the son has gone down under for the winter. The father goes golfing every Sunday.

    It will generate an effective income of over 100k even if prices drop back IMO. He is also stocked at under 170/ HA so any new nitrates rules only require him to enter a derogation. As well he can probably up stock numbers of he wants to.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭straight


    Nice system alright. Nice to have the young lad around and to be able to give him the opportunity to take a few months off and come back to the job again. Finishing the calves at 18 months sounds like a big ask. You would have to give them concentrate at grass to finish them surely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Well definitely this crack of borrowing a load of money to do a dairy conversion is a life sentence. You have to keep on the treadmill to keep the bank happy. Slow and steady is the way, then if things go wrong like health etc there are still other options.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk


    Lot of fluff in that article tbh. He’s lucky he had the old parlour and dairy still

    picking bulls for there stature he wont keep the cows the same as what he bought



  • Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭Pinsnbushings


    That just about sounds like my dream operation, he's farming at altitude like us aswell, unfortunately I don't have 200 acres under me but if I did that's the way I'd go with it..no interest in milking 300 cows.

    My own vet said the exact same thing about calving the high ebi heifers.. my own heifers this year I suppose are "highish ebi" average about 220 ebi and I had a fair job to pull out a little Angus calf from a heifer last night, narrow out looked at the ebi figures she was 47 for calving...wouldn't like to have bulled her with a friesan...we don't own a calving jack here, never needed 1..might change if they dont put more emphasis on linear traits in these ai bulls.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    He had a good income already with that size of a farm so why get into cows at that age unless his son was actually around to run the farm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,829 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    His son is just gone to Australia for the winter. By the sound of it he be back as calving gets I to full flow. Big thing is he has the operation set up so one person can run it 70-80% of the time

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Tonynewholland


    It's not clear that his son is coming home full time from the article. If he is it's a different story. His parlour at this stage is probably 40 years old and will end up putting in something more up to date and will probably go for more cows at that stage aswell. A lot of lads got out of cows after brucellosis because they didn't like the job.



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