Milk Price III

Dwag

The part time boy wrote: »

Are you drunk ???

Sadly no.

Are you young?

The part time boy

Define young

Farmer Ed

Dwag wrote: »

You and me...Lol.
Jaysus....

Dwag I know we live in a liberal world and everything now. I suggest you go to bed by yourself. I can assure you I am not attracted to the idea of us going to bed together !

Genghis Cant

Back on topic please lads. Thanks GC

Keepgrowing

Had a group from North Western France yesterday.
30c base price
Mostly grass based but winter milked
No desire to increase numbers
Labour massive issue
Wished they had Moorepark and Teagasc


Thought we we're nuts, but were vey pleasant about it

visatorro

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Had a group from North Western France yesterday.
30c base price
Mostly grass based but winter milked
No desire to increase numbers
Labour massive issue
Wished they had Moorepark and Teagasc


Thought we we're nuts, but were vey pleasant about it

I know why I think people are nuts but what was the French reasons?

Farmer Ed

Good article on what is forming the trend towards the revival of butter. http://m.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/you-butter-believe-it-global-food-trends-push-up-butter-prices-35798476.html?utm_content=buffer4460c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Farmer Ed

Very alternative article. Probably might not win too many friend in the industry. But worth a read. http://www.thatsfarming.com/news/Dairy-farming-expansion-more-debt-hard-work

Farmer Ed

Fingers crossed http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/milk-price-increase-for-may-supplies-imminent/

briangriffin

Just wondering with milk price what coops pay additional for low cell count or TBC
Glanbia here and no bonus for quality.
What about other companies?

Farmer Ed

briangriffin wrote: »

Just wondering with milk price what coops pay additional for low cell count or TBC
Glanbia here and no bonus for quality.
What about other companies?

Wasn't aware of that but I think for most of them the minimum it scc400k tbc50 K and a bonus for SCC under 200k. While logically there has to be a minim standard at the same time I can understand where Glainbia are coming from on this one because at the end of the day all of the milk ends up being mixed up together and used to make the same products. Plus in a way what is the difference between a bonus and a fine? Both imply that if you don't reach a certain standard you get paid less.

Mooooo

briangriffin wrote: »

Just wondering with milk price what coops pay additional for low cell count or TBC
Glanbia here and no bonus for quality.
What about other companies?

Dairygold have scorecard system you between 45 and 50 points you get 0.5c bonus and drops then as you go down. Scc is 20 points for sub 200 and the rest of points are split across thd tbc etc

Fixture

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Wasn't aware of that but I think for most of them the minimum it scc400k tbc50 K and a bonus for SCC under 200k. While logically there has to be a minim standard at the same time I can understand where Glainbia are coming from on this one because at the end of the day all of the milk ends up being mixed up together and used to make the same products. Plus in a way what is the difference between a bonus and a fine? Both imply that if you don't reach a certain standard you get paid less.

A lot of SCC limits have dropped down below 400k now - that's the legal minimum

Glanbia 300k level for penalty now I think but maybe someone will correct me

West Cork decent bonus for under 200k

Farmer Ed

Fixture wrote: »

A lot of SCC limits have dropped down below 400k now - that's the legal minimum

Glanbia 300k level for penalty now I think but maybe someone will correct me

West Cork decent bonus for under 200k

No I totally understand that. But no matter what the limit is, a penalty or a bonus really amount to the same thing. Also even if one farmer in the load has a high SCC, all the milk is still used to make the same product.

kowtow

Farmer Ed wrote: »

No I totally understand that. But no matter what the limit is, a penalty or a bonus really amount to the same thing. Also even if one farmer in the load has a high SCC, all the milk is still used to make the same product.

True, but the load as a whole will have a lower cell count, which is what I think counts for processing.

Farmer Ed

kowtow wrote: »

True, but the load as a whole will have a lower cell count, which is what I think counts for processing.

True and possibly relevant in the manufacturer of some products. But on the average load of milk that is just been separated in to cream to make butter and the skim dried in to powder. It probably adds no value to the final product once the minimum requirement of 400k SCC is met all the relevant box's have been ticked and sub 200k SCC is of no added value to the processor. But I agree yes is some products there may be advantages.

kowtow

Farmer Ed wrote: »

True and possibly relevant in the manufacturer of some products. But on the average load of milk that is just been separated in to cream to make butter and the skim dried in to powder. It probably adds no value to the final product once the minimum requirement of 400k SCC is met all the relevant box's have been ticked and sub 200k SCC is of no added value to the processor. But I agree yes is some products there may be advantages.

I would have thought that as long as the cell count is consistent between loads, and obviously as low as possible, they have what they need.

Very difficult to deal with batches of milk with different counts - as processing, renneting for cheese etc. changes depending on count.. but in volume the law of averages would be on your side.

On the other hand low cell count is universally acknowledged as the indicator of "clean milk" - whether rightly or wrongly - raw milk regulations mandate a very low count and milk used within 24 hours usually. A lot of the processes required to lower cell count would be the same ones that guarantee some kind of dairy hygiene in any case. And it's an easily measurable number.

If you want to delve deeply into parlour hygiene and what clean raw milk really is at the point of production there is a great collection of research papers and essays translated from French (where most of the research is) produced last year by Bronwyn Percival. There are a few surprises in it, in the sense that sometimes additional measures and the cleanest "looking" setups aren't producing the cleanest product.

Farmer Ed

kowtow wrote: »

I would have thought that as long as the cell count is consistent between loads, and obviously as low as possible, they have what they need.

Very difficult to deal with batches of milk with different counts - as processing, renneting for cheese etc. changes depending on count.. but in volume the law of averages would be on your side.

On the other hand low cell count is universally acknowledged as the indicator of "clean milk" - whether rightly or wrongly - raw milk regulations mandate a very low count and milk used within 24 hours usually. A lot of the processes required to lower cell count would be the same ones that guarantee some kind of dairy hygiene in any case. And it's an easily measurable number.

If you want to delve deeply into parlour hygiene and what clean raw milk really is at the point of production there is a great collection of research papers and essays translated from French (where most of the research is) produced last year by Bronwyn Percival. There are a few surprises in it, in the sense that sometimes additional measures and the cleanest "looking" setups aren't producing the cleanest product.

Very interesting and I totally get the possibility of very low cell count being an advantage in some types of cheese. But for a lot of products once it compiles with EU standards it doesn't make one blind bit of difference to the value of the end product. Realistically a lot of Irish dairy products fall in to that category. Can understand why co ops may give incentives to get low SCC milk in certain situation's but let's be honest about it, usually is not actually adding any extra value to the end product.

pedigree 6

There is another way of looking at this.
Is that the milk processor is doing the farmer a favour by maintaining low cell count standards.
The lower the cell count the less likely there will be incidents of mastitis in the herd.

It's just a pity that Glanbia use the baseball bat instead of the carrot that other processors use to maintain this.

Farmer Ed

pedigree 6 wrote: »

There is another way of looking at this.
Is that the milk processor is doing the farmer a favour by maintaining low cell count standards.
The lower the cell count the less likely there will be incidents of mastitis in the herd.

It's just a pity that Glanbia use the baseball bat instead of the carrot that other processors use to maintain this.

That's a fair point but I suppose that's what the farmer will be chasing anyway penalty or no penalty.

The thing is being deprived of the carrot is also a penalty. What is the difference between a bonus and a penalty?

Mooooo

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Very interesting and I totally get the possibility of very low cell count being an advantage in some types of cheese. But for a lot of products once it compiles with EU standards it doesn't make one blind bit of difference to the value of the end product. Realistically a lot of Irish dairy products fall in to that category. Can understand why co ops may give incentives to get low SCC milk in certain situation's but let's be honest about it, usually is not actually adding any extra value to the end product.

It can effect the processability of the milk. Standards are also required by those who buy off the processor, some lorries were sent to certain farms for milk for Danone for example based on low scc

alps

If a farmer is careless enough to have milk over 400scc, then the coop will need a farmer who is not quiet as careless, and make use of the less careless farmers milk to make the careless farmers milk better....
Definitely the less careless farmer should be paid more..

Keepgrowing

alps wrote: »

If a farmer is careless enough to have milk over 400scc, then the coop will need a farmer who is not quiet as careless, and make use of the less careless farmers milk to make the careless farmers milk better....
Definitely the less careless farmer should be paid more..

He is, the careless one is fined

Farmer Ed

alps wrote: »

If a farmer is careless enough to have milk over 400scc, then the coop will need a farmer who is not quiet as careless, and make use of the less careless farmers milk to make the careless farmers milk better....
Definitely the less careless farmer should be paid more..

That is pretty much how it is in every co op and its also the legal requirement that milk for processing should be less than 400K scc. Now I suspect it would be very unlikely in this day and age that a full load of milk collected in one truck from a number of farms would exceed 400K. I suppose the question I was asking is for most products if it doesn't really matter too much from the point of view of the quality of the end product if the milk has a scc of 50K or 350K, why a bonus/penalty for being under 200K is so important? Ok I understand there are products that are an exception to that rule, but those products are generally the exception rather than the rule. An yes I do totally get that it is in the farmer's best interest to have sccs sub 200k anyway. But that really is more an issue for the farmer rather than the co op.

Would I be considered paranoid to suggest that setting the bar low enough does give the purchaser the opportunity of quoting a milk price that in reality all milk may not qualify for all of the time?

Also there seems to be a general misconception that Danone processes raw milk directly from farms. That is actually not the case. Danone buy in mostly demineralized whey, skim and other protein sources from a number of processors. True they only buy this in during the grazing season because they want it coming from grass fed milk. But while I am sure in theory it may be possible to trace this back to to a group of farms who supplied the milk that made that batch of cheese or butter or whatever the protein source was the byproduct off. Tracing any one tin or batch of baby food back to any one particular farm on the basis that farm had a scc of under 200k would be impossible. While I have come across Co Ops collecting milk from herds with cows freshly calved in the winter to supply liquid milk. I am not aware of processors collecting milk separately for the purpose of making products whose byproducts would be destined for Danone. That certainly is news to me and would sound like a very complex process.

I do know of a farmer in the Kilcorney area who ended up having to pay for a truck load of milk in the fall of the year having failed a antibiotic test. He swears blind he had not used antibiotics in months! To add insult to injury he subsequently found out that another farmer had also failed an antibiotic test in the same load of milk and he also had to pay for the load of milk! I can't remember for sure and I can't confirm this and I must ask him the next time I am talking to him. But from memory I am pretty sure he found out the load wasn't even dumped having being paid for on the double You probably know who I am talking about and you can ask him yourself if you don't believe me. Needless to say he is no longer supplying the same co op.

Water John

In fairness West Cork give a bonus on under 200,000 scc. Thus the quoted base price, doesn't include the bonus.

Farmer Ed

Water John wrote: »

In fairness West Cork give a bonus on under 200,000 scc. Thus the quoted base price, doesn't include the bonus.

To be fair west cork also make a lot of cheese and it is a product that would benefit from sub 200k scc milk. Interesting that the bonus is not included when quoting base milk price.

Water John

Yes, they manufacture cheese, right through the winter season TMK.

Farmer Ed

Water John wrote: »

Yes, they manufacture cheese, right through the winter season TMK.

I wasn't aware of that. I know some of the smaller artisan cheese producers will only make cheese from grass fed milk and take a break for cheese making for the winter months. Then again I suppose west cork do have an attractive winter milk scheme that most likely supplies them with a good supply of milk during the winter also.

kowtow

Farmer Ed wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that. I know some of the smaller artisan cheese producers will only make cheese from grass fed milk and take a break for cheese making for the winter months. Then again I suppose west cork do have an attractive winter milk scheme that most likely supplies them with a good supply of milk during the winter also.

In part that's a taste issue, not all cheeses robust enough to suffer winter milk off silage, particularly maize. In some countries it's a criminal offence to allow cows to eat fermented feed if it is going into cheese!

Also it is the natural historical pattern => surplus (think cheap) spring milk preserved by cheesemaking. A small artisan will often be equipped to produce a size of cheese which fits the lactation curve for the herd. Bear in mind that a single traditional 50lb truckle of cheese is going to take about 250 litres of milk.

industrial cheese making on the scale of the creameries doesn't have these issues as milk can be homogenized / standardised & industrialised cultures and other additives are the norm.

It results in factory cheeses which, whilst sometimes of a very high standard, won't have the individual character of the milk and the season nor indeed benefit from the skilled (hopefully) response of the cheesemaker to the differences in milk composition vat by vat.

No different to wine-making, plenty of high quality factory wines but when a master winemaker meets a particularly good vintage in a single vineyard its another thing entirely, with a price to match.

Farmer Ed

http://www.australiannationalreview.com/world-renown-heart-surgeon-speaks-heart-disease/

More articles like this and the butter revival might be sustained. Fingers crossed. Would appear this guys views are becoming more and more excepted