The Walking Dead | Season 7 | Episode 4 | Service [AMC] [SPOILERS]

Robsweezie

7

Guy:Incognito wrote:

I was hoping maybe theyd pull a right twist out of their arses and have negan killed out of the blue, setting off a civil war in the saviours . But , alas, no

Kirkman would sooner have the writers killed than negan for even suggesting that :-)

Mezcita

2

Kirby wrote: »

They know they are coming to collect stuff. They even know a rough time. Negan will come and bring most of his men. So you set up some explosives with a detonator at the gate, you trigger it when he arrives. Most of them get blown up and you mow down whatever is left. Darryl eats it and his fans cry but ultimately the threat is over.

Or even just a single bullet will do it. Negan is the leader here. Find out where his base is, sit with michonnes rifle and take him out. Obviously not Michonne coz she cant hit a barn door but she has the right idea. Take him out and the infighting caused by the vacuum will take care of the rest.

See, this is what made the wolves scary. The didnt have a leader. They would come and no matter what you did to a few of them, the rest were still coming. You had to kill them all. With the Saviours, you just need to kill Negan.

This is why its not as menacing.

This. Every day this.

The idea that Rick and the gang now live in a perpetual state of terror after what happened is just insane. Knowing that Negan would rock up at some stage would mean that they would either plan to fight or run. But handing over the guns and doing nothing doesn't make sense in terms of how the group has operated before.

Booby trap the front gate. Karl might lose another eye but you'd be sitting back on the front porch toasting victory before you know it. Or else you'd die but that's probably better than being tortured by el Negan.

terryduff12

6

Did rick get another daughter or is carl going transgender, I suppose with all them ninja zombies that just creep up on ya they need something to hold on to.

Lovely Bloke

naughto wrote: »

When Negan arrived at Alexandria.. The short Rick and Daryl interaction Daryl was blinking rapidly... It seemed to be Morse code.

I love this theory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgelmcOdS38

Crackle

5

Kirby wrote: »

They know they are coming to collect stuff. They even know a rough time. Negan will come and bring most of his men. So you set up some explosives with a detonator at the gate, you trigger it when he arrives. Most of them get blown up and you mow down whatever is left. Darryl eats it and his fans cry but ultimately the threat is over.

Or even just a single bullet will do it. Negan is the leader here. Find out where his base is, sit with michonnes rifle and take him out. Obviously not Michonne coz she cant hit a barn door but she has the right idea. Take him out and the infighting caused by the vacuum will take care of the rest.

See, this is what made the wolves scary. The didnt have a leader. They would come and no matter what you did to a few of them, the rest were still coming. You had to kill them all. With the Saviours, you just need to kill Negan.

This is why its not as menacing.

While fair enough points, your post kinda shows up the problem with the pacing of this show. We're 3 weeks on from what happened and ready to see a fight back. Rick and co, however, are only a few days on, still reeling and trying to process what happened. Just a few days before this episode negan had Rick on the brink of cutting Carl's arm off. The whole point of breaking him was to knock this thinking out of him.

As per his conversations with michonne, all Rick wants now is to keep everyone alive. The consequences of fighting back now, and losing, will be catastrophic.

stargazer 68

Crackle wrote: »

While fair enough points, your post kinda shows up the problem with the pacing of this show. We're 3 weeks on from what happened and ready to see a fight back. Rick and co, however, are only a few days on, still reeling and trying to process what happened. Just a few days before this episode negan had Rick on the brink of cutting Carl's arm off. The whole point of breaking him was to knock this thinking out of him.

As per his conversations with michonne, all Rick wants now is to keep everyone alive. The consequences of fighting back now, and losing, will be catastrophic.

You are absolutely right and it makes perfect sense but considering we watched season 1-6 in the space of 3 weeks and are now caught up - we don't have the patience for that

Effects

Kirby wrote: »

They know they are coming to collect stuff. They even know a rough time. Negan will come and bring most of his men.

That's not the case. Negan doesn't usually do the collections. He's just setting some more ground rules this time. Making sure Rick's people know their place.

naughto

The more I watch it the more Iam convinced
http://m.imgur.com/rI3Ofo4?r

Posting on the phone can some one hyperlink the above link

silvervixen84

Could take or leave that episode. I did like that Michonne is returning to her warrior ways. Didn't like them trying to manipulate a domestic role for her.

I think focusing on one group per episode would work well if you were binge-watching the series. For us watching week-to-week, it's a bit painful waiting to find out what happened to everyone, drip by drip.

I bet next week's episode will take place entirely on the Hilltop, perhaps with another appearance from Negan, and Maggie avoiding getting spotted by him.

maximoose

Seem to be in the minority in enjoying that episode after a dull last two episodes.

If that turns out to be morse code though they can fûck right off, be even stupider than Shiva :pac:

The Talking Bread

6

Apparently, Daryl said "I East" in morse. Giving away location of Saviours camp. I still think it was far too "unnoticeable" as a morse code for the, eh..... blinking eye.........to just throw it in there. How are they going to convince us now that the 2 lads sat around learning it one Saturday afternoon.

Seems to be right though.

naughto

If there was no posters on the walls about it I would think it's bollo1x aswell but from what I remember the posters where showed twice

maximoose

Yeah I did notice the long shots of the posters, but didn't cop the blinking at the time.

Still think it's a silly plot line if that's what they are going for.

Here is the poster in Rick's house

Omackeral

5

I rated this episode a 6. There was a good load of tension throughout the entire show and you never know if Negan is going to just kick off. I usually do enjoy bad guys but I really wanna see him and Dwight get what's coming to them.

However, I do agree with the idea that too much Negan takes away from his aura. What's less is more sometimes. Also agree with the poster that says too many episodes have gone by without the Hilltop guys Jesus and Gregory, starting to forget what those fellas are all about.

The Talking Bread

6

maximoose wrote: »

Yeah I did notice the long shots of the posters, but didn't cop the blinking at the time.

Still think it's a silly plot line if that's what they are going for.

Here is the poster in Rick's house

Ha, well it was either that or we would have 5 episodes of them searching in an upwards 100 mile radius for the compound! That would be fun! Gets that factor out of the equation anyway!

D0NNELLY

2

Kirby wrote: »

They know they are coming to collect stuff. They even know a rough time. Negan will come and bring most of his men. So you set up some explosives with a detonator at the gate, you trigger it when he arrives. Most of them get blown up and you mow down whatever is left. Darryl eats it and his fans cry but ultimately the threat is over.

Or even just a single bullet will do it. Negan is the leader here. Find out where his base is, sit with michonnes rifle and take him out. Obviously not Michonne coz she cant hit a barn door but she has the right idea. Take him out and the infighting caused by the vacuum will take care of the rest.

See, this is what made the wolves scary. The didnt have a leader. They would come and no matter what you did to a few of them, the rest were still coming. You had to kill them all. With the Saviours, you just need to kill Negan.

This is why its not as menacing.

I think its not as menacing cause we've been here before with the Guvnor and Terminus, only difference being Negan wants offerings.
So now we have not only episodes being repetitive but series also.

They're not going to kill Rick or Daryl, so no real threat. Negan is welcome to the rest of them..

skipper_G

5

silvervixen84 wrote: »

Could take or leave that episode. I did like that Michonne is returning to her warrior ways. Didn't like them trying to manipulate a domestic role for her.

I think focusing on one group per episode would work well if you were binge-watching the series. For us watching week-to-week, it's a bit painful waiting to find out what happened to everyone, drip by drip.

I bet next week's episode will take place entirely on the Hilltop, perhaps with another appearance from Negan, and Maggie avoiding getting spotted by him.

I said exactly the same last night after I finished watching the episode. At this stage, the unwillingness (or inability) to explore more than one narrative thread in a single episode is harming the overall construct of the season. After S7E1 we as viewers were damaged emotionally by the events, we were in the same emotional state as the group. Now we're in a much different place because a few weeks have passed for us but emotions are still being processed by Rick et al. They've kind of broken one of the golden rules of television by having the viewers in a completely different emotional state to the characters.

They need to tighten this thing right up, not saying it should be wall to wall action every episode. A character driven piece can be more exciting and engaging than a televisual 'Die Hard' if it's executed well. Right now the writers are failing this show.

Okon

7

Another good TWD episode for me, Negan sure made Rick eat some sh**!

Great performnces fron Andrew Lincoln and JDM once again... Negan is as OTT as he is in the comics and Rick's eyes are just menacing at times. (The "not today, not tomorrow" mentality hasn't gone away yer know!)

Father Gabriel spooks me out with his smiley face... I'm sure there's a psychopathic serial killer behind that collar somewhere.

Oh and Carl, go and cut your fu*@#ng hair!!!

cavemeister

7

Here are my thoughts:

Negan leads by instigating fear on all the saviours along with the communities who offer tribute to him each week / month
He doesn’t seem to have any real leadership skills so resorts to violence to get everyone in line (very effective by the way)

Because there is no leadership, I think it would be a case of cut off the head and the body dies. The Saviours would simply scatter (to freedom) I don’t know why Rick’s gang have not figured this out yet.

I don’t believe Daryl is broken – Not in the space of a week so I wonder what his game is. I think he see’s something in Dwight (Who is all show in front of the gang but when alone, he is just a weak man who looks up to Daryl – hence trying to emulate by wearing his clothes and riding his bike)

Ricks gang seem to have splintered. Negan’s reign seems to work on the men and they have submitted to him but I don’t see that in the women (especially Rosita and Michonne) – Will they leave I wonder?

I don’t see any way back for Rick – Not a realistic one anyway. Maybe the death of Carl or Judith might kick-start him back into action but for now, he’s a secondary character with nothing to live for – He deserved it though IMO.

The separate timelines are annoying as I reckon next week will be the hilltop episode and then back to Ezekiel and his gang, then the saviours which means it could be another 3-4 weeks before we see Alexandria again.

I did enjoy the episode but hate having to wait a week to see the next one. Come in AMC, we want to binge these shows 

Mr.Nice Guy

2

Kirby wrote: »

They know they are coming to collect stuff. They even know a rough time. Negan will come and bring most of his men. So you set up some explosives with a detonator at the gate, you trigger it when he arrives. Most of them get blown up and you mow down whatever is left. Darryl eats it and his fans cry but ultimately the threat is over.

Or even just a single bullet will do it. Negan is the leader here. Find out where his base is, sit with michonnes rifle and take him out. Obviously not Michonne coz she cant hit a barn door but she has the right idea. Take him out and the infighting caused by the vacuum will take care of the rest.

See, this is what made the wolves scary. The didnt have a leader. They would come and no matter what you did to a few of them, the rest were still coming. You had to kill them all. With the Saviours, you just need to kill Negan.

This is why its not as menacing.

Good post.

It doesn't make sense that people would put up with this type of behaviour and not mutiny. The only explanation provided so far was what Dwight told that guy, 'we were losing and now we're not'. But even if you look through history at successful leaders, they have faced assassination attempts when they've pushed followers too far.

If they had presented his followers as being just as savage then you could understand it on the grounds that he could be replaced by someone just as bad, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

If they had presented him as special in some way, perhaps have him claim that he was bitten by a walker but didn't turn and thus he claims to be immune to the virus - you could later reveal that he was bullsh*tting people with that claim - at least that would be a reason as to why people would be willing to stomach his rule.

Especially given that this is a community of southern Americans who would have a lot of faith in government of the people, and would not be as susceptible to rule by one person like other nationalities might be, say in the Middle East for example.

It's too far-fetched and makes Rick and the gang look weak by association.

Blazer

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Apparently, Daryl said "I East" in morse. Giving away location of Saviours camp. I still think it was far too "unnoticeable" as a morse code for the, eh..... blinking eye.........to just throw it in there. How are they going to convince us now that the 2 lads sat around learning it one Saturday afternoon.

Seems to be right though.

Guaranteed it's gonna be that, we're guaranteed a flashback episode shortly after when Abe and Glenn was killed where the lads learnt morse code before the killings,and where Rick hid guns and re-did the inventory book to make Negan think that he's got them all. Personally as soon as I saw Negan at the gate I would have been firing that Desert Eagle into his profile nicely highlighted in the sun or just aiming the rocket launcher at the gate.

The Talking Bread

6

To be fair, it is not highly improbable they learnt something like morse. Communicating w/o voice and sounds is necessary when facing walkers or even evading enemies so preparation is key. They would always be armed so sign language was unlikely to help. Basic Morse isn't too hard to learn also.

Olishi4

I reckon Deanna's son or Rosita's eh buddy is going die soon.

Id like to see either Rosita killing him or else he'l make a sly misjudged deal against Rick with Negan and Negan will kill him anyway.

Robsweezie

7

Olishi4 wrote:

Id like to see either Rosita killing him or else he'l make a sly misjudged deal against Rick with Negan and Negan will kill him anyway.

I don't think Spencer would have the guts tbh...

Olishi4

Robsweezie wrote: »

I don't think Spencer would have the guts tbh...

You mean have the guts to try to lick up to Negan? That would be exactly his type of character.

He's thinking of something because he got smart with Rick and he said to Rosita something about not having to live like that and he said to Rick that they could have made a deal with Negan sooner. Plus, hes stupid.

DoozerT6

I'd love to know how the Saviours have only just realised Alexandria exists! Surely with the amount of people Negan has they would have had scouting parties out since day one. Alexandria can't be that far from them, similar to Hilltop and The Kingdom.

Sometimes I just have to suspend my disbelief

Also glad to see Rosita get some decent screen time this week.

naughto

Spencer will join up with negans gang I'd say

Olishi4

naughto wrote: »

Spencer will join up with negans gang I'd say

He's a liability, Negan wouldn't want him.

That's why he killed Glen and not Daryl after Daryl punched him because he wants strong people not people like Spencer.

DoozerT6

I was wondering if Daryl will feel some sort of obligation to Maggie now that Glenn's gone and (once he's back with the group, whenever that is) appoint himself her and the baby's guardian....maybe leading to stronger feelings....who knows.

That's probably for another thread though.

J. Marston

The way Carl is written is ridiculous. He saw two people from his group have their heads reduced to red mush and still thinks it's a good idea to be acting the hard man towards that group.

expectationlost

negan let Karl away with his life after a threat and negan never followed up on who hid the guns

expectationlost

mightyreds wrote: »

I don't think she wants bullets, I think she said a bullet

she had the casing of a bullet

expectationlost

would robbing the hilltop not be the best way to get something interesting for Negan? might they consider it?

#spencerwasright

Dandelion6

DoozerT6 wrote: »

Also glad to see Rosita get some decent screen time this week.

+1 glad to see some development to her character.

Mc Love

6

J. Marston wrote: »

The way Carl is written is ridiculous. He saw two people from his group have their heads reduced to red mush and still thinks it's a good idea to be acting the hard man towards that group.

He had a gun, and could have easily pointed at Negan and pulled the trigger!

The Talking Bread

6

The thing about TWD is it is becoming more and more tailored to the comic readers (of which I am one so it doesn't affect me and I am appreciating how they are bringing it to the screen) but stepping back I acknowledge and empathise somewhat with the seemingly frustrating cartoonish aspects of the show and the need to suspend reality to enjoy it and it was kind of around this juncture of the comic series, that took hold, whatever Kirkmann started smoking at the time! I still think people need to cut it some slack though, for their own viewing sakes! The reason for the bottle episodes was to somewhat sort out the time chronology also.
The first episode was always going to be full on Neagan. Interrupting the darkness of that episode with scenes with a hippy and his tiger would have ruined that much acclaimed tense premiere.
I think getting the lightness and wierdness of Ezekiel's entrance needed a bottle episode so as that where we know where we stand with him.
Same with last week. It was far from a filler episode, introduced us to so much of what will shape the season, Daryll, Neagan, and mainly Dwight. The structure of the compound, how it works, etc.

I also think they handled it well by skipping on the few days after the deaths until we next saw Alexandria. I am not saying showing the immediate emotional response upon returning wouldnt have worked but it would have made for grim viewing just watching a few scenes of them in shock and silence and also trying to explain what happened to the other Alexandrians. Emotionally and future planning, nothing has progressed in Alexandria since so what was there to see?
Anyway, I anticipate, from henceforth, we will see a lot more merging between the 4 divisions (Alexandria, Sanctuary, The Kingdom, Hilltop).

Next weeks there

is clips between both Hilltop and Alexandria

and thats just what we have seen. I anticipate it wont be long until there will be big crossovers between all divisions. The Saviors have appeared in every episode so far, remember, heavily in 3.

Standalone episodes have been happening for seasons now in TWD. In Season 4 for example, Rick was only in 8 episodes!

3) There are several story telling reasons for 'bottle episodes'
A) It allows THAT section of the story to be told more fully without having to focus on B plots that distract by constant cutting back and forth between locals.
B ) Since TWD is about PEOPLE (ie, while Rick is perceived as the main central character, the show is not ultimately about him, unlike say BB where the show was about the rise and fall of Walter White, hence requiring his almost everpresence) it allows the show to focus on characters that have been overshadowed by the main cast. You know.

This is a show with a lot of major characters. If we don't learn more about these characters, how can we be expected to become invested in them?

I imagine cast pay per episode budgets come into play also so thats a reason most of the cast (which is an evergrowing ensemble) will only feature in maybe an average of a third of the 16 episiodes. They have an average of $2.5million actual budget per episode, with some episodes made cheaper so as that you can have big epically produced episodes here and there. The likes of Lincoln and Readus would be on circa 100K and then you have the production crew, special effects, set design, all the extras (walkers!).

People go on about how differently they approached season 1 and 2. There was a much smaller cast, mainly based in one location and cast wages were not as demanding.
It does frustrate me of course that you lose touch with characters at certain junctures of the season but that said, there is logic to it.


I think they should be afforded a bigger budget tbh, god knows, AMC have the money for it. They are getting circa $300,000 for a 30 second advertisement!

intheclouds

What's a bottle episode?

The Talking Bread

6

intheclouds wrote: »

What's a bottle episode?

An episode that is largely confined to one location/only a few (or even just one) main characters/specific narrative.
The likes of Morgan's flashback episode last season or The Governors flashback episode would be on the higher end of bottle episodes on TWD. Remember the season when they were all spit into small groups after the prison destruction, focusing on, say Daryll and Beth in one episode, Rick, Morgan, Michonne and Carl in another.

Fly in BB is considered one of the most acclaimed "Bottle episodes"

I wouldn't even call a lot of these TWD episodes bottle episodes as they still push the narrative of the story on. Sometimes bottle episodes are just thrown in to fill in the season or out of artistic egotism by the producer who wants to grab a bit of the limelight!

maximoose

God I absolutely hated that Fly episode :pac:

The Talking Bread

6

maximoose wrote: »

God I absolutely hated that Fly episode :pac:

ha! There was a sense of "you just don't get it, man. This is the best episode ever" by a certain fragment of viewers who claimed superiority in artistic know it all when others criticised it!

I enjoyed it for what it was but I completely get why other's wouldn't................................but they are wrong, of course!

Omackeral

5

maximoose wrote: »

God I absolutely hated that Fly episode :pac:

Thought it was garbage myself. I was lucky as I binge watched, I can't imagine waiting a week for that... and then waiting another week for more. Shudder.

intheclouds

Sounds like

Bottle episode = filler episode.

The Talking Bread

6

intheclouds wrote: »

Sounds like

Bottle episode = filler episode.

As I said, not necessarily so? There is a fair claim to refer to the last 3 episodes being perceived as bottle episodes but they are far and away not filler episodes! Especially in the grand scheme of things going forward in the season narrative.

Fox Hound

6

To be honest the reason that the show has slowed down is probably down to the pressures from AMC,,,,the first season for me was my favorite and there was only 6 episodes, then it was followed by a very strong second season which was 13 episodes, then after that the show doubled in size in terms of series length.....So I think that the writers probably struggle to meet the demand of what AMC want from them and we are suffering...you always hear that Studios are always getting involved with scripts and length of serious because they feel that because they are pumping the money in that they have the power to make the show the way they want......In contrast to GOT, who have stuck to 10 episodes every season and get the Job done and leave people wanting more.....I don't blame the writers I think AMC have a lot to answer for in the change of format from season 1 and story telling!!

Dubh Geannain

5

maximoose wrote: »

Seem to be in the minority in enjoying that episode after a dull last two episodes.

If that turns out to be morse code though they can fûck right off, be even stupider than Shiva :pac:

I enjoyed it. Just not as much as I would have liked :cool:

intheclouds

The Talking Bread wrote: »

As I said, not necessarily so? There is a fair claim to refer to the last 3 episodes being perceived as bottle episodes but they are far and away not filler episodes! Especially in the grand scheme of things going forward in the season narrative.

Well the last 3 episodes were nothing like the fly BB episode.

But it is a pain the way TWD insists on only showing stuff from one storyline per episode.mit really affects the pace of the show. It also destroys cliffhangers. People lose interest when they something like Glenn and the dumpster and they don't show the outcome the next episode.

To me it feels like more old fashioned linear tv pacing.

What does the term bottle mean in bottle episode? I don't get it?

The Talking Bread

6

In fairness there has been nothing like the ridiculousness of the Glenn episode before! It was a mess! Mainly because everyone more or less knew he would survive but also because the plausibility of his escape was very low. I think there attention there was to try unconvincing to deceive the comic readers and general knowledge as to the fact Glenn may not be the recipient of Lucille. It was a kind of "they killed him off but brought him back so maybe they won't kill him off again" thing.
It kind of worked in that regard. It gave him and Maggie that itty bitty emotional reunion and magnified sense of hope before taking it away again.

I agree, it was a mess, only because there was no way they would kill off a main character like that, on his own, no witnesses etc unless they went down the farm shed route again and Zombie Glenn appeared on the street in front of Maggie.

In that way I was 99% sure, in fact 100% sure (confident) he wasn't dead so it wasn't really a cliffhanger I invested any emotional interest in!


Perhaps Google bottle episode? My description is from my own approach to what it means to me.

As I said I disagreed with the fact the other episodes were bottle episodes from my standpoint but I can acknowledge that others take different view based on their interpretation but they definitely weren't filler episodes and I think I gave decent enough arguments to support the rationale of how the last 3 episodes were structured. But from hereon I expect a wider mix between the locations in individual episodes as the season settles in.

skipper_G

5

The Talking Bread wrote: »

An episode that is largely confined to one location/only a few (or even just one) main characters/specific narrative.
The likes of Morgan's flashback episode last season or The Governors flashback episode would be on the higher end of bottle episodes on TWD. Remember the season when they were all spit into small groups after the prison destruction, focusing on, say Daryll and Beth in one episode, Rick, Morgan, Michonne and Carl in another.

Fly in BB is considered one of the most acclaimed "Bottle episodes"

I wouldn't even call a lot of these TWD episodes bottle episodes as they still push the narrative of the story on. Sometimes bottle episodes are just thrown in to fill in the season or out of artistic egotism by the producer who wants to grab a bit of the limelight!

Fly was fantastic

I wouldn't call the last few episodes bottle episodes. They've basically fractured the narrative into it's constituent parts. And while it does work sometimes, like you mentioned S4- Post prison destruction it reaffirmed the separation of the group. It doesn't work all the time. Right now, the writers have become over reliant on using it as a story device. And every episode is a single strand, watching week to week that method isn't as effective.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your earlier post, when you mentioned cost per episode and usage of the actors. This is AMC's cash cow, and they're milking it, I don't have a problem with the studio making some cash but not at the cost of the quality of the show.

storker

6

J. Marston wrote: »

The way Carl is written is ridiculous. He saw two people from his group have their heads reduced to red mush and still thinks it's a good idea to be acting the hard man towards that group.

Carl is probably the most consistent character in the group. He's always been incapable of doing what he's told or showing some common sense.

Omackeral wrote: »

I rated this episode a 6. There was a good load of tension throughout the entire show and you never know if Negan is going to just kick off. I usually do enjoy bad guys but I really wanna see him and Dwight get what's coming to them.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who finds Negan just annoying. His constant leaning back as he talks, his inability to shut up, and his equal inability despite having what must be hundreds of scavengers at his disposal, to find a pair of trousers that fits.

"Typical master criminal...loves the sound of his own voice" (Blackadder)

It doesn't seem to have dawned on Negan yet that his "system" is unsustainable. "Bring me something interesting or I'll kill someone." What a genius. Put unnecessary extra pressure on the people providing for you, who are already under additional pressure because their ability to provide for themselves has been halved, so no doubt Lucille will insist on her pound of brain, or some similar talky long drawn out b/s, thus rendering his servants' task even more difficult...and so it goes on.

Ezekiel seems to have thought it through much more intelligently, and while he admits he enjoys the trappings and status, he does seem to have the general good in his mind. He's a perfect foil for Negan. I do hope we'll get to see his tiger using Negan as a chew toy...or failing that, Dwight.

PhiloCypher

What was the significance of the smoking rubble Michonne was looking at the end ?