Painter looking for more money.

Bonzo Delaney

I'm making the asumption it's a small painting business maybe 2-3 painters.
been a one man band myself carpentry doing domestic work. A lot of trust is involved between the contractor and client
some times the job turns out bigger than originally suspected due to previous work or material quality
if it's a minor cost to remedy in relation to the agreed price most trades would suck it up leaving a good job behind and hope word of mouth leads to more work
if it's a major fix and the contractor finds they're going to be down half a days pay over it they should inform the client first at least keep them in the loop
I work with loads of painters and presuming it's a normal size room I can't see it costing another 100€ to re coat a celing unless they had already cleaned up and had to prepare the room again for painting
if the op is happy with the finished job and feels the contractor is trustworthy come to a settlement explaining that they should of informed you it was going to be extra

Pickpocket

J.pilkington wrote: »

Some of the posters and thankers on this thread are unbelievable.

the painter needs to suck it up, he fecked up with his pricing, OP gave him the job based on his quote. If he is any good of a painter it's swings and roundabouts and another job will take less time where I doubt he'll be rushing to give a refund back. Unless of course his plan is to underquote on all jobs

And the €100 for another coat is expensive, a lot of the pain (travel, masking, moving furniture, removing masking) is not part of an additional coat of paint.

I don't think the painter necessarily fcuked up his pricing. Any number of complications can arise on a job and if he had to factor in all eventualities then his quote may have been too high to get the job. I sympathise with him to a certain extent but he was using cheap paint so he was leaving himself wide open to this.

The main problem is his lack of communication. He should have made it clear that his spec was for two coats and if a third was required then that would be separate. He's also left himself open to accusations of dishonesty and unprofessionalism so he's really dropped the ball.

You never quote for a room. Instead, you charge per coat (often by square metre) with additional costs depending on the quality ot the surfaces and the level of prep required. He should not have carried out additional work without speaking to the customer.

Also, €100 for a third coat seems high. As I said, some painters charge by square metre (or linear metre for skirting-boards, etc.) but I suspect that's not the case here.

So, OP, you don't have to pay anything extra but there's no hard and fast rule here. If you're very happy with the work and he definitely applied the third coat then you might think it reasonable to pay him. But speak to him about how the quote breaks down. €100 seems like a nice round number pulled out of thin air. Also, he was using cheap paint so make sure the quote reflects that.

I think it's a learning lesson for both of you. The painter needs to up his game with respect to his choice of materials and his overall approach to a job, while you need to make sure exactly what you're paying for, especially if you're allowing cheap products to be used in your home.

Colser

OP I'm certainly not mean but I'd be very annoyed if this happened to me. You chose him because of his quote and your budget so to me that's what you should be paying.If he wanted you to purchase a certain type of paint then he should have stated that to you.

What's the point in getting quotes from different people for any job if they're going to add on to it without informing you first?It doesn't make any sense.

People saying that you should just pay up are very disingenuous imo..and 100e is a lot of money to fork out extra to what you had been quoted.

Juwwi

There's been alot of emphasis on the paint used.
While not a high end paint Johnstone's paint isn't the cheapest paint out there.
If it woodies or b&q own brand it could be put down the OP bought the cheap paint and is at fault but l wouldn't put the blame on the paint .

The painter should of known as coat 2 was being put on that it wasn't covering and just gave it the third coat while the sheets were all down and furniture moved ,it wouldn't of been as big a job then ,than having to return to do it .

I'd offer him half and not use him again.

As previously mentioned these things swing in roundabouts he'll be on another job were he'll get away with a coat and wont give a discount .

satstheway

I work in the the service industry.

If it was a estimate then it could vary.

If it was a quote he should stick with the 2 coats and then advise that a third will be needed.

As it is he did not ask but continued with a third
(He should have asked)

Now myself (if the job is neat and tidy)
I would pay him but make it known nicely he should have asked.
It has cost him time and expence and like myself he obviously has pride in his work.

I often have to fix the cheapo jobs carried out by (dole men) experts so I gloat in the extra expence in the so called cheap job.

Colser

Shouldn't a qualified painter know how many coats a wall would need ,if not how can he accurately quote any job?

Sleeper12

machiavellianme wrote:

How do you figure this? An agreement was struck for 2 coats at a certain price. You can't just change the terms and demand more money without further agreement. Suppose he decided he'd paint a bedroom while he was at it. It wasn't agreed on, he just felt like doing it and increasing his fee without any discussion. Would he still be entitled to payment for it?

Price agreed for 2 coats. Homeowner says I'm not really happy with the way it looks. Asks painter to give it another coat. Homeowner has asked painter to do the job without agreeing a price. Painter can now change what he likes. I'm not saying that this happened in this case but just pointing out that it's not as clear cut as you might think.

Colser wrote:

Shouldn't a qualified painter know how many coats a wall would need ,if not how can he accurately quote any job?

If the painter is supplying and is using his chosen brand this argument might stand.
If homeowner supplies paint then painter hasn't a clue how well the paint cover. I've seen Dulux paint taking 6 coats and it still looked carp.

OP who suggested another coat? Did you ask the painter? Or did he say I'm not happy with that I'll give it another coat?

Sleeper12

machiavellianme wrote:

How do you figure this? An agreement was struck for 2 coats at a certain price. You can't just change the terms and demand more money without further agreement. Suppose he decided he'd paint a bedroom while he was at it. It wasn't agreed on, he just felt like doing it and increasing his fee without any discussion. Would he still be entitled to payment for it?

Price agreed for 2 coats. Homeowner says I'm not really happy with the way it looks. Asks painter to give it another coat. Homeowner has asked painter to do the job without agreeing a price. Painter can now change what he likes. I'm not saying that this happened in this case but just pointing out that it's not as clear cut as you might think.

Colser wrote:

Shouldn't a qualified painter know how many coats a wall would need ,if not how can he accurately quote any job?

If the painter is supplying and is using his chosen brand this argument might stand.
If homeowner supplies paint then painter hasn't a clue how well the paint cover. I've seen Dulux paint taking 6 coats and it still looked carp.

OP who suggested another coat? Did you ask the painter? Or did he say I'm not happy with that I'll give it another coat?

PANDDDKP

Seeing as it's Johnstone's paint it'll likely need a 4th coat. This is the problem with homeowners buying their own paint, they usually buy cheap garbage without telling the painter beforehand what paint they're providing.. As one poster said his painter is 100euro per day, he's not a painter.

Pickpocket

robbie1977 wrote: »

While not a high end paint Johnstone's paint isn't the cheapest paint out there.

You're quite right. It's not about the price of the paint, it's about the quality. Farrow & Ball was once the designer brand (with an extravagant price to match) and yet for years it was simply poor quality paint. Very reactive and difficult to manage. An attractive looking gimmick, basically. So I was wrong to continually use the word 'cheap' and I sincerely hope I didn't offend the OP in that regard. That wasn't my intention. Ultimately it's about quality and unfortunately Johnstone's is just not good quality paint. It's not as bad as B&Q or Woodies but that's about as empty a compliment as I could give it.

Incidentally, I sympathise with painters and customers trying to buy 'good' paint these days because it's not as simple as it once was. Years ago it was largely Dulux and Crown. Each of those brands had different ranges but generally speaking you were in good hands either way. But things have changed.

The introduction of certain EU environmental regulations means that solvent-based paints are being phased out, and in fact that's been going on for some time. The water-based gloss, eggshell and satin paints that first came on the market were very poor alternatives, and the the Dulux ones still are. The designer paints like Farrow & Ball and Little Greene are producing much better water-based products.

Initially I didn't think the regulations would have any tangible effect on existing water-based products, i.e. emulsions. However during that period the quality of Dulux has plummeted (I haven't used Crown in years, so I can't comment there). To a certain extent Dulux is still one of the 'good' brands, but it's nowhere near as robust or reliable as it used to be. I'm not sure if it's down to the regulations or changes within Dulux itself, but something's up. Even their oil-based satinwood is a shadow of its former self.

So my advice to anyone looking at having work carried would be to not rule out the more expensive paints, providing (and this is vitally important!) that you have an experienced, highly-skilled decorator that is familiar with the products.

Colortrend is expensive when compared to Dulux. But per litre it has vastly better opacity and coverage (i.e. it kills colours better and covers more area) than Dulux (with some caveats; their reds are notoriously tricky), especially their Ceramic Matt range. But you need a painter that knows what he's doing and that uses top-quality rolling sleeves to really push the paint.

The same goes for Dulux Diamond Coat which is a fanatic product. Then of course there's Little Greene, the most expensive of the lot. Exceptionally pricey but with the correct painter you'll be getting a sumptuous, gorgeous looking paint that, litre for litre, blows Dulux out of the water. Don't be afraid of expensive paints providing you have the right man for the job.

Anyway, that's a bit long-winded but hopefully it will be of use to somebody. I just get so annoyed by the amount of poor quality products out there and the number of misconceptions surrounding painting and painting products. Not everyone can afford a painter or premium products, but you'd be surprised at how many of us can when you break-down the true cost of it. Dulux have made a killing on the walk-in trade and various quick-drying, non-drip gimmicks. I'm bloody sick of seeing people breaking their arse trying to afford the best paint for their home and then being sold that crap (that's not all Dulux products, but some of them).

JimsAlterEgo

his loss, he had 2 opportunities to point out the issue to the OP before doing the work
When he saw the brand of paint - he should have said that brand will need 3 coats
when the 2 coats were done (he and that include his employees) should have said another is needed. He should have briefed his workers that only 2 coats were to be done.

OP is there a written quote and does it specify 2 coats?

Sleeper12

JimsAlterEgo wrote:

his loss, he had 2 opportunities to point out the issue to the OP before doing the work When he saw the brand of paint - he should have said that brand will need 3 coats when the 2 coats were done (he and that include his employees) should have said another is needed. He should have briefed his workers that only 2 coats were to be done.

Sorry but this is just rubbish. If op supplies the paint she has to pay for the extra work.
If the painter supplies the paint and it takes 10 coats then he supplies labour free. If it went to the small claims court this would be the verdict. I've seen it in the scc.

former total

PANDDDKP wrote: »

Seeing as it's Johnstone's paint it'll likely need a 4th coat. This is the problem with homeowners buying their own paint, they usually buy cheap garbage without telling the painter beforehand what paint they're providing.. As one poster said his painter is 100euro per day, he's not a painter.

This thread has gone in all sorts of directions because people are not reading the OP's posts properly (or at all).

The OP was not paying €100 per day.

The OP did not specify two coats, or three. He just wanted his kitchen painted to the proper standard.

The OP didn't look at the second coat and ask for another one to be done. The painter (or his assistant) just went ahead with it.

The deal was "you paint the kitchen, I'll provide the paint, I'll pay you XX for the job".

The only question to ask the OP is:
Did he give you a price or a quote?

If it was a price, tell the painter that you're not paying a penny more than was agreed. If it was a quote, then you can negotiate.

JimsAlterEgo

former total wrote: »

This thread has gone in all sorts of directions because people are not reading the OP's posts properly (or at all).

The OP was not paying €100 per day.

The OP did not specify two coats, or three. He just wanted his kitchen painted to the proper standard.

The OP didn't look at the second coat and ask for another one to be done. The painter (or his assistant) just went ahead with it.

The deal was "you paint the kitchen, I'll provide the paint, I'll pay you XX for the job".

The only question to ask the OP is:
Did he give you a price or a quote?

If it was a price, tell the painter that you're not paying a penny more than was agreed. If it was a quote, then you can negotiate.

and what level of detail of any was in the quote? or if they painter caveated the quote orally? i.e. that price is for 2 coats,if more are needed it will be more.

rubadub

Syndic wrote: »

If he initially thought the job would take three coats and gave you a quote to reflect this, but it only took two would he take 100 euro off the price? I seriously doubt it.

That's what I wondered about.

Anybody charging to do painting, be it cowboy or trained picasso, would know there are different qualities of paint, as keeps being repeated here, it's common knowledge. So they should have told the OP it will likely take 2 or 3 coats depending on quality, and then recommend the better paints and poor quality ones to avoid as false economies. It still might unexpectedly take 3 coats with the better paint but at least they have lowered the risk of it.

appfry

Ask him to take the third coat off.

Thelomen Toblackai

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Sorry but this is just rubbish. If op supplies the paint she has to pay for the extra work.
If the painter supplies the paint and it takes 10 coats then he supplies labour free. If it went to the small claims court this would be the verdict. I've seen it in the scc.

If it went to small claims the painter hasn't a leg to stand on. You can't demand money from someone over and above an agreed price for a job. Particularly when you do it without even asking them if the want it done at additional cost.

Sleeper12

Thelomen Toblackai wrote:

If it went to small claims the painter hasn't a leg to stand on. You can't demand money from someone over and above an agreed price for a job. Particularly when you do it without even asking them if the want it done at additional cost.

I used to own a property maintenance company. We did big and small work, from hotels to small jobs in people's homes. People were forever asking for this and that after the price was agreed. Any extra work was billed after. If the homeowner doesn't ask for a price first, the tradesman can charge the same rate per hour as the priced work. I saw a small claims court judge asking a homeowner why would you expect this extra work to be free?
Extra work = extra pay
Now you don't have to pay it to the tradesman but you will pay it through the small claims court in the end.

TheChizler

The difference there is that the two parties were aware of the extra work needed before it was done.

Besides, since was the third coat extra work? The number of coats was never agreed. The job was paint the room, not a certain number of coats.

Thelomen Toblackai

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I used to own a property maintenance company. We did big and small work, from hotels to small jobs in people's homes. People were forever asking for this and that after the price was agreed. Any extra work was billed after. If the homeowner doesn't ask for a price first, the tradesman can charge the same rate per hour as the priced work. I saw a small claims court judge asking a homeowner why would you expect this extra work to be free?
Extra work = extra pay
Now you don't have to pay it to the tradesman but you will pay it through the small claims court in the end.

You're missing the key thing in all this. The OP never asked for extra work. He agreed a price for a job. The painter did the job then changed the price afterwards without consulting with him.

He's not owed anything and there's no way the small claims court ignores a contract and gives the painter more money just because he wants more money.

Sleeper12

TheChizler wrote:

Besides, since was the third coat extra work? The number of coats was never agreed. The job was paint the room, not a certain number of coats.

Quote for 2 coats is standard because 1 to 2 coats usually does it with quality paint. My company sent out thousands of quotes over the years & it was always for 2 coats. If we supplied the paint & a third Coat was needed we wouldn't have charged extra. If clients supplies cheap paint then we charged

TheChizler

Did you specify 2 coats in the quote?

Or that more coats would cost extra?