Selfish charging

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Free charging has not encouraged many people to buy EV in Ireland the last 5 years.........

I think the issues that prevented EV take up in the past were not influenced by the existence of whAt was very limited free charging

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I think the issues that prevented EV take up in the past were not influenced by the existence of whAt was very limited free charging

What ?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

What ?

you made the point that free access didnt seem to encourage EV takeup. I would argue that over the last 5 years and especially for the first 3-4 years many other issues with EVs limited takeup , the access to chargers free or otherwise wasn't the main issue.

n97 mini

Said Leaf in the OP was still plugged in at Tesco this evening when I got there. The owner was dropped off in another car a minute or two after I arrived. Put her bag in the boot, took the note off the windscreen, read it, balled it up and threw it on the ground (I hate littering, so that annoyed me). Then drove off. So that SCP is finally free, yay!

n97 mini

Oh the other thing is she didn't use a card to unplug. Those charge points must automatically unlock... after a week!

appfry

Sounds like the poor woman is being stalked.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

you made the point that free access didnt seem to encourage EV takeup. I would argue that over the last 5 years and especially for the first 3-4 years many other issues with EVs limited takeup , the access to chargers free or otherwise wasn't the main issue.

No free charging isn't the issue, it's pure range and lack of choice, so whether charging is free or not it will have little impact on sales until there is more range and more choice.

It will be interesting to see if Zoe 40 Kwh sales over take the leaf, but I expect many potential EV buyers are waiting to see what happens in 2018.

denismc

There are < 2000? EVs in Ireland and already these threads are popping up.
Imagine what it would be like with 20,000 EVs?
And people wonder why there is such low interest in electric cars in Ireland.

isnottheword

denismc wrote: »

And people wonder why there is such low interest in electric cars in Ireland.

Granted, its an issue - but it in and of itself is not a primary issue in the poor uptake of EVs in Ireland. It's a secondary issue that could be very quickly sorted out by those with the authority to do so.

BoatMad

isnottheword wrote: »

Granted, its an issue - but it in and of itself is not a primary issue in the poor uptake of EVs in Ireland. It's a secondary issue that could be very quickly sorted out by those with the authority to do so.

I dont think in fact it needs any " authority " and I fail to see how "authorities " can really control selfish behaviour .

In time EV owners will collectively develop a user etiquette and many of these issues will disappear , yes there will always be a very small percentage of people that abuse anything by their very nature, but the vast majority are decent people that often dont realise their are infringing others

BoatMad

denismc wrote: »

There are < 2000? EVs in Ireland and already these threads are popping up.
Imagine what it would be like with 20,000 EVs?
And people wonder why there is such low interest in electric cars in Ireland.

i very much doubt those that are not interested in electric cars are aware of any of the issues around poor social behaviour at charge points !!!:P

isnottheword

BoatMad wrote: »

I dont think in fact it needs any " authority " and I fail to see how "authorities " can really control selfish behaviour

Yes, 'authority' as opposed to 'authorities'. i.e. the network operator. I'm not in favour for the introduction of charging right now (I think it's premature). However, they could move to a model whereby excessive stays are penalised monetarily.

As regards 'authorities', in situations whereby the by laws exist/apply - to deal with cars parked in a charging bay that are not charging.

Otherwise, I agree that in tandem with that - over time - etiquette will improve - but some enforcement measure of a kind is necessary also.

BoatMad

isnottheword wrote: »

Yes, 'authority' as opposed to 'authorities'. i.e. the network operator. I'm not in favour for the introduction of charging right now (I think it's premature). However, they could move to a model whereby excessive stays are penalised monetarily.

As regards 'authorities', in situations whereby the by laws exist/apply - to deal with cars parked in a charging bay that are not charging.

Otherwise, I agree that in tandem with that - over time - etiquette will improve - but some enforcement measure of a kind is necessary also.

The reality is that most of the chargers incising the vast majority of fast chargers are in fact on private ground, hence the legal situation and any " enforcement" is very tricky, and even then shopping car parks would be reluctant to tow or clamp ( even if they legally could ), the legal situation you refer to only applies got parking in the control of local authorities

secondly , how do you penalise a EV squatting in a charging bay , but not plugged in for example, The charger operator (whoever that might be ) , has no ability to levy charges in this situation

The issue is that ultimately , we will have far fewer , but much larger " EV charger stations " , with multiple units, on site cafe , etc more importantly , manned operatives , whose job it will be to ensure hogging doesnt take place ( just like in current filling stations )

The current network is , in my view, entirely designed in a backwards looking fashion, with badly situated chargers which cannot have supervision , its going nowhere

Carlow Town this evening at the bus stop, the AC point blocked, both spaces, now you'd have to be pure blind not to see the signs, people are just pure ignorant.

denismc

denismc wrote: »

There are < 2000? EVs in Ireland and already these threads are popping up.
Imagine what it would be like with 20,000 EVs?
And people wonder why there is such low interest in electric cars in Ireland.

Well you see, by the time electrics sell in any large numbers in Ireland , EV range will be 350+ Kms so the need for public charging will be greatly reduced.

I do expect demand for the network to grow as people take longer trips and need to charge, regardless of range, people need to charge eventually but individual use of the network would be very little.

Marcusm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well you see, by the time electrics sell in any large numbers in Ireland , EV range will be 350+ Kms so the need for public charging will be greatly reduced.

I do expect demand for the network to grow as people take longer trips and need to charge, regardless of range, people need to charge eventually but individual use of the network would be very little.

major cities should be the ideal spot for EV buyers. You might be surprised at the large proportion of Dublin dwellers who do not have access to offstreet parking or who live in apartment blocks unwilling to instal individual charge points meaning that public charging infrastructure will continue to be important. A properly distributed urban charging network focused on sites where cars are naturally parked for periods of time will increase rather than decrease in importance.

denismc

Deleted User wrote: »

Well you see, by the time electrics sell in any large numbers in Ireland , EV range will be 350+ Kms so the need for public charging will be greatly reduced.

I do expect demand for the network to grow as people take longer trips and need to charge, regardless of range, people need to charge eventually but individual use of the network would be very little.

From your own post
"Like that Woman from Kill I met a some months ago, she arrived just before me at the Naas DC, I asked her would she be long I'm going nearly to Carlow and she said no.

I then watched her go to the Lidl across the road, she came back about 45 min later , which is when I asked her where she lived , she said Kill , then I said , so you need a 45 min charge to get to kill ?

Very, very unfair. People are so inconsiderate. I told her all I needed was 10 mins that I would have plugged her back, she just got into the car and drove off. It's not nice to experience after a 12 hr shift, up at 6 home at 9, but that's my problem sure and I wouldn't mind if someone absolutely needed the charge but to think she hadn't even the tiniest bit of decency to ask me how long I needed "

It isn't a question of range, there are issues with people using charging bays as an extra parking spot as in your example above. That woman didn't need to charge for 45 minutes but she obviously decided it was a handy parking space.
In a few car parks I have been to the charge points are in prime locations close to shops.
I can see EV users using these spots as an extra parking space even though they may not need to charge, just plug in and away you go.

denismc

denismc wrote: »

From your own post
"Like that Woman from Kill I met a some months ago, she arrived just before me at the Naas DC, I asked her would she be long I'm going nearly to Carlow and she said no.

I then watched her go to the Lidl across the road, she came back about 45 min later , which is when I asked her where she lived , she said Kill , then I said , so you need a 45 min charge to get to kill ?

Very, very unfair. People are so inconsiderate. I told her all I needed was 10 mins that I would have plugged her back, she just got into the car and drove off. It's not nice to experience after a 12 hr shift, up at 6 home at 9, but that's my problem sure and I wouldn't mind if someone absolutely needed the charge but to think she hadn't even the tiniest bit of decency to ask me how long I needed "

It isn't a question of range, there are issues with people using charging bays as an extra parking spot as in your example above. That woman didn't need to charge for 45 minutes but she obviously decided it was a handy parking space.
In a few car parks I have been to the charge points are in prime locations close to shops.
I can see EV users using these spots as an extra parking space even though they may not need to charge, just plug in and away you go.

What are you saying by quoting me ?

pjproby

There was a GOcar BMW i3 plugged in and frosted over opposite Hueston Station at 9am this morning, still there, still plugged in at 5pm this evening!

BoatMad

Marcusm wrote: »

major cities should be the ideal spot for EV buyers. You might be surprised at the large proportion of Dublin dwellers who do not have access to offstreet parking or who live in apartment blocks unwilling to instal individual charge points meaning that public charging infrastructure will continue to be important. A properly distributed urban charging network focused on sites where cars are naturally parked for periods of time will increase rather than decrease in importance.

In general cities are becoming increasingly anti-car. EVs are best used where they are needed , rural and inter urban travel. Cities are best served by high capacity rail based solutions

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

In general cities are becoming increasingly anti-car. EVs are best used where they are needed , rural and inter urban travel. Cities are best served by high capacity rail based solutions

Meanwhile back in the real world in Ireland, there is little prospect of a reduction in car use based on existing public transport infrastructure and an even smaller prospect of investment in inter urban public transport. There will thus be a continued demand for public charging infrastructure and, if EVs, are to increase in popularity there will have to be a broadening of such infrastructure. I appreciate from your regular posts that you can accommodate a 120mile daily round trip commute without use of public charging. The point I am seeking to make is that there is a broad category of persons within urban centres with very short commutes who will not consider an EV as they do not have an offstreet space in which to charge. That cohort is arguably the most suited to an EV.

BoatMad

The point I am seeking to make is that there is a broad category of persons within urban centres with very short commutes who will not consider an EV as they do not have an offstreet space in which to charge. That cohort is arguably the most suited to an EV.

its a common misconception that low mileage commuters as best suited for EVs, today on a simple TCO calculation, city drivers are very better served by small economical petrol cars, much cheaper to buy, no issues with refuelling and the running costs , due to low ,mileage are a small proportion

EVs currently are best used where there total daily range is consumed in 24 and replenished at night by home charging . People with no access to home chargers , are best served by small petrols as the public charger network cannot and will not sustain widespread EV charging for that group of people and will be overwhelmed

EV's are perfect for City folk, even less need for public charging.

I drive 135-140 Kms for commuting and have work charging but a 10 - 15 min DC will also suffice in a 24 Kwh Leaf, the 30 Kwh would probably get me home. A 40 Kwh Zoe would get me to, from and back to work on a single charge so I would not need work charging, but since I do the work charger would meet all my commute without needing to charge at home.

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

its a common misconception that low mileage commuters as best suited for EVs, today on a simple TCO calculation, city drivers are very better served by small economical petrol cars, much cheaper to buy, no issues with refuelling and the running costs , due to low ,mileage are a small proportion

EVs currently are best used where there total daily range is consumed in 24 and replenished at night by home charging . People with no access to home chargers , are best served by small petrols as the public charger network cannot and will not sustain widespread EV charging for that group of people and will be overwhelmed

Small petrol engines are, through use of direct injection, becoming less attractive because of the levels of particulates emitted. GPFs may help remove the larger particulates but the jury is still out on whether the particularly small particulates which they foster might be more harmful (cancer rather than cold/asthma) and thus I don't think city dwellers should not have charging points.

n97 mini

Marcusm wrote: »

Small petrol engines are, through use of direct injection, becoming less attractive because of the levels of particulates emitted

Very true. Pity more people don't know about the PM emitted from DI petrol engines.

It makes no sense to drive petrol/diesel/hybrid if people don't have to , notice how I said " if people don't have to"

Air quality would be far better, especially getting old commercials off the road altogether.

BoatMad

Marcusm wrote: »

Small petrol engines are, through use of direct injection, becoming less attractive because of the levels of particulates emitted. GPFs may help remove the larger particulates but the jury is still out on whether the particularly small particulates which they foster might be more harmful (cancer rather than cold/asthma) and thus I don't think city dwellers should not have charging points.

on an environmental grounds EVs are street ahead, on a Total Cost of Ownership, a low ,mileage city car is best served by a modern small petrol at the present time

stesaurus

BoatMad wrote: »

on an environmental grounds EVs are street ahead, on a Total Cost of Ownership, a low ,mileage city car is best served by a modern small petrol at the present time

A small reliable 2nd hand car or bangernomics would probably be best of all from a TCO point of view. TCO is useful but thankfully not every decision is based on that. It should be part of the decision making process but not the main one.

BoatMad

s.welstead wrote: »

A small reliable 2nd hand car or bangernomics would probably be best of all from a TCO point of view. TCO is useful but thankfully not every decision is based on that. It should be part of the decision making process but not the main one.

Huh TCO should be the main decider , no point buying a car you can't afford !!. After that then it's all that " heart over head stuff "

ted1

It'd be interesting to see the cost of installing a charge point along a whole kerb. With multiple taps. Run the cable in a box placed in front of the kerb, 100 spaces =100 charge points, then use a parking meter as before and just enter your parking bay number and the max charge you need.
It could tap into the nearest ESB traffic so as to ensure supply is there

Kind of like this but even more cost effective

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/19/portland-airport-gets-record-number-of-ev-charging-stations/