I got colleagues suspended for rating women in the office

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

You can't force people to like you or be your friend. You did what you had to do, keep your head down and get on with what you're being paid to do. You're not at work to make friends.

the_syco

OP; what did you expect would happen?

andekwarhola

That kind of chat is asinine and juvenile, certainly not my thing, but it was a private conversation and i don't think you did yourself any favours escalating it. I wouldn't be surprised if management are irritated about having to take action about a private conversation, to be honest.

This is on the off chance it actually happened of course, given that its a new post(er) with a conveniently controversial touchstone issue round here.

keeponhurling

bucketybuck wrote: »

, so its not entirely surprising that they will be careful about what they say to the OP now.

I guess it's kinda what the OP wanted though, she wasn't interested in her colleagues' immature personal lives and now she doesn't have to be listening to it anymore

RDM_83 again

What's weird to me about the scenario is I've never really heard lads talk much about ugly/unattractive women, like it's not off any interest.

A question for the OP would be would she report management about in office affairs, the "f-cking up' the heirarchy that sometimes happens creates lots of toxicity as well

anewme

I'm a narky ****e in work. If I overheard any of that, I'd have went for the juglar on the spot and told them if I heard anything similar again in the office that I'd report them.

Cowards don't like being confronted.

I'm in work to pay the bills not listen to any bull****.

The older you get the less you give a fvk about pandering to cliques.

Deub

Candie wrote: »

Why? Does that magically make this an appropriate way to behave in a place of business?

There is zero context that makes this behaviour acceptable.

It is absolutely not on, in any way, in a workplace. No amount of 'ah sure, it's grand' from anyone else makes it allowable.

Agree. Some people are offended with so little nowdays that soon the weather will be the only subject of conversations at work.

bpmurray

RDM_83 again wrote: »

What's weird to me about the scenario is I've never really heard lads talk much about ugly/unattractive women, like it's not off any interest.

A question for the OP would be would she report management about in office affairs, the "f-cking up' the heirarchy that sometimes happens creates lots of toxicity as well

And why not? It's grounds for instant dismissal.

Clampdown

Four Phucs Ache wrote: »

I worked in an office with 50-80 on the floor.Age varied greatly between 18 and 65.Everybody over the years talked, cried, lunched , socialised , slept with , and some married .It was a nice mix of people and characters and there was "the lads" and the "girls".Everybody got on.It was on its own a separate universe between 9am and 5pm.

What management did was only covering their ass, and senior mgt covering theirs.It has to be done in the world we live in now socially.What you did may have been right but the internal social world you are in for 8 hours a day has cracked.It appears you are no longer viewed as others have said "part of the team".

Everybody bends the rules here and there with tasks and procedures and internal rules and policies.They are now afraid of the new behavioural status that you have displayed by doing what you did over a conversation you heard.

I feel for you as you have your own morals but it's going to take time to fix this crack.

She doesn't need to fix any crack. The company needs to fix the culture in the workplace and the muppets need to stop acting like they're in a strip club and act like professionals.

People attacking whistleblowers and blaming victims is one of the reasons Irish society has been rife with inequality and abuse for ages. No matter if it's a mildly serious workplace thing like this or a serious abuse case, it's bred into the Irish to 'say nuttin, you'll only bring bother on yourself.'

LexieOnRale

LexieOnRale wrote: »

You can't force people to like you or be your friend. You did what you had to do, keep your head down and get on with what you're being paid to do. You're not at work to make friends.

Or enemies... My concern for the OP is that her working life and quality of work could suffer as a result of been ostracised by her colleagues. It seems bizarre that gross sexist comments are seen as more acceptable to telling on someone but its just a sad fact of life.

Companies need to be firmer on their company code with this type of behaviour let employees know from the offset that in no circumstances will this be tolerated.

anewme

Deub wrote: »

Agree. Some people are offended with so little nowdays that soon the weather will be the only subject of conversations at work.

Talking about the size of colleagues tits is not appropriate water cooler conversation.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Talking about the size of colleagues tits is not appropriate water cooler conversation.

And it's not a choice between talking about rating colleagues f**kability or the flippin' weather.

andekwarhola

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Have you not understood the OP's main opening thread ? it was not a private conversation, it was loud enough that not only she could hear but others too. If it was private, then none of the above would have heard a tweet.

While I agree it's a pathetic conversation to have in the office, it sounds like it was intended to be between two people.

One way of looking at this is ask yourself would you butt into a conversation (of a very personal nature) between two people in your office if they were talking loudly enough to be overheard?

Jawgap

SteM wrote: »

Having respect for your colleagues is not ranking them based on how much they turn you on in earshot of other staff members. The two blokes showed no respect for their colleagues in the first place.

I'd love to know what types of offices there are in this country based on some of the replies here.

Indeed and two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm guessing the OP is relatively new to the workplace and the world of work, a more experienced person would've dealt with the unacceptable behaviour by challenging it, not necessarily reporting it.

Bongalongherb

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthemix94
I bet all of the people criticizing the poster are straight white men.

Wait til you are a victim of one of your famed "isms" in the workplace, and see how you like it.

Straight white men?

What does colour have to do with anything?

Triggered much?

I assumed all of the people criticising the OP were gay white men

SteM

Jawgap wrote: »

Indeed and two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm guessing the OP is relatively new to the workplace and the world of work, a more experienced person would've dealt with the unacceptable behaviour by challenging it, not necessarily reporting it.

There were not two wrongs in this scenario imo. There was one wrong and one person being so uncomfortable they felt they had to report it.

The OP said they made people aware of it when it happened in the past. How long does this stuff go on before it gets reported?

Bongalongherb

andekwarhola wrote: »

While I agree it's a pathetic conversation to have in the office, it sounds like it was intended to be between two people.

One way of looking at this is ask yourself would you butt into a conversation (of a very personal nature) between two people in your office if they were talking loudly enough to be overheard?

Most peoples hearing is reasonably good, so if you can hear these two talking loud enough for you to hear, then you are not butting into their conversation, you cannot help but hear them, huge difference, unless you want all workers to put on ear-muffs. And if you can hear them from a small distance away, then you can be sure others could hear them.

I'm amazed I even have to explain this to some of you.

Woodhenge

The thing about 'company policy' and 'workplace culture' is that even where this is heavily enforced being able to overcome this artificial formality is what makes a team strong, reliable and flexible. In these kinds of teams there is an unwritten rule 'you don't have to watch what you say around us'. The OP has broken this rule and their relationship with the team probably will never recover.

Teams work closely with each other, rely on each other and often find themselves dependent on the trust built up with a colleague to get through difficult moments in the knowlegde that the other team mates will always do the same for them. They will always have this kind of talk and it is probably necessary for that relationship to continue.

I've been in business meetings where a bunch of suits sit around and once the foul language and dirty jokes start, it is the modern equivalent of drawing blood and shaking on it. It is a way of showing everyone present that you are now vulnerable to them and they speak back to you in the same manner to signal they accept and expect your trust too. There's a special intimacy in thinking 'god if anyone heard us'.

The OP has just signalled that their trust and loyalty remains outside where people pretend they aren't hypocrites.

jackinthemix94

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthemix94
I bet all of the people criticizing the poster are straight white men.

Wait til you are a victim of one of your famed "isms" in the workplace, and see how you like it.

Straight white men?

What does colour have to do with anything?

Triggered much?

I assumed all of the people criticising the OP were gay white men

One generally finds less privileged people (minorities etc), aren't so gross in how they behave.

Woodhenge

Woodhenge wrote: »

The thing about 'company policy' and 'workplace culture' is that even where this is heavily enforced being able to overcome this artificial formality is what makes a team strong, reliable and flexible. In these kinds of teams there is an unwritten rule 'you don't have to watch what you say around us'. The OP has broken this rule and their relationship with the team probably will never recover.

Teams work closely with each other, rely on each other and often find themselves dependent on the trust built up with a colleague to get through difficult moments in the knowlegde that the other team mates will always do the same for them. They will always have this kind of talk and it is probably necessary for that relationship to continue.

I've been in business meetings where a bunch of suits sit around and once the foul language and dirty jokes start, it is the modern equivalent of drawing blood and shaking on it. It is a way of showing everyone present that you are now vulnerable to them and they speak back to you in the same manner to signal they accept and expect your trust too. There's a special intimacy in thinking 'god if anyone heard us'.

The OP has just signalled that their trust and loyalty remains outside where people pretend they aren't hypocrites.

The women who work in that office need trust and loyalty too, brand new poster. It's not just men who count anymore.

Jawgap

SteM wrote: »

There were not two wrongs in this scenario imo. There was one wrong and one person being so uncomfortable they felt they had to report it.

The OP said they made people aware of it when it happened in the past. How long does this stuff go on before it gets reported?

Well the OP needs to get a job with you because by the sound of it their colleagues agree neither with you or the action of reporting the issue to management.

Trust is a precious commodity, be careful what you spend it on

Four Phucs Ache

Clampdown wrote: »

She doesn't need to fix any crack. The company needs to fix the culture in the workplace and the muppets need to stop acting like they're in a strip club and act like professionals.

People attacking whistleblowers and blaming victims is one of the reasons Irish society has been rife with inequality and abuse for ages. No matter if it's a mildly serious workplace thing like this or a serious abuse case, it's bred into the Irish to 'say nuttin, you'll only bring bother on yourself.'

Your right, she doesnt have to fix anything herself.The social element of the environment she works in does which will take time.She states "many" of her "female" colleagues are blanking her.That's not normal.

I haven't blamed or attacked the whistleblower as you state.I pointed out that her internal social environment has changed because she brought it to attention.

Edups

LexieOnRale wrote: »

You can't force people to like you or be your friend. You did what you had to do, keep your head down and get on with what you're being paid to do. You're not at work to make friends.

Ah come down off it will you. When you're working alongside people it's better to be friend rather than foe. We're not robots, we do take it badly emotionally when we are subjected to cold shoulder especially when trying to just do the right thing. Ffs you wouldn't tell someone who's not making friends in school or college "you're not here to make friends", no you're not, but it makes life a lot more tolerable to not have the office loath you.

Carlos Orange

Candie wrote: »

The women who work in that office need trust and loyalty too, brand new poster. It's not just men who count anymore.

From the OPs post it sounds like it isn't just men who have no interest in engaging with her socially.

The_Valeyard

jackinthemix94 wrote: »

One generally finds less privileged people (minorities etc), aren't so gross in how they behave.

What nonsense is this?

Edups

Edups wrote: »

Ah come down off it will you. When you're working alongside people it's better to be friend rather than foe. We're not robots, we do take it badly emotionally when we are subjected to cold shoulder especially when trying to just do the right thing. Ffs you wouldn't tell someone who's not making friends in school or college "you're not here to make friends", no you're not, but it makes life a lot more tolerable to not have the office loath you.

That's why it's wise not to speak of the people you work with in insulting or demeaning ways. Or if you do, to expect to pay the consequences.

Woodhenge

@Candie: Thinking it is a men vs women issue is missing the point, mixed teams will do this, women teams will do this, it's a matter of where your loyalty lies, if it is with the Tumblr or Twitter mobs, people of either sex won't want you on their team.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Edups wrote: »

Ah come down off it will you. When you're working alongside people it's better to be friend rather than foe. We're not robots, we do take it badly emotionally when we are subjected to cold shoulder especially when trying to just do the right thing. Ffs you wouldn't tell someone who's not making friends in school or college "you're not here to make friends", no you're not, but it makes life a lot more tolerable to not have the office loath you.

It's better yes, no doubt about it. But at what price? Put your hands ive your ears and ignore people making derogatory comments about other work mates? What if the OP was next to be judged like a show pony? Where does it say in the
Company policy that it's acceptable to treat fellow co workers poorly and expect loyalty and support from everyone else while doing so? She's not there to make friends, she's there to carry out the duties she was hired to do. She can't force people to like her, but she did the right thing

Gbear

jackinthemix94 wrote: »

One generally finds less privileged people (minorities etc), aren't so gross in how they behave.

Bull****.

Some people are gob****es and some aren't.
Niether their ethnicity nor the contents of their trousers have anything to do with it.


If there's been an issue with overzealousness on the part of management or they've handled it in a way that's ****ed up office morale then that's on management.

It's not up to OP to babysit the office. She had a complaint and made it. If there was a call for restraint it ought to have been on the part of management.
Navigating these kinds of clashes is literally what they're getting paid for.

psinno

psinno wrote: »

From the OPs post it sounds like it isn't just men who have no interest in engaging with her socially.

The whistleblower being scapegoated for the toxic atmosphere that was allowed proliferate is hardly a new scenario. I can imagine it's worse now they've been brought to task for the situation, but it's hardly her fault. It'll settle down, and the work environment will improve for everyone.

She is not the one in the wrong here. The people who were suspended are responsible for the actions that got them suspended.

Interestingly, you yourself have complained about sexual comments at work, iirc, so you should know it's affects on people who have to listen to it.

andekwarhola

Bongalongherb wrote: »

I'm amazed I even have to explain this to some of you.

You're not explaining anything to me. You just think if you repeat your stance enough times, I'll think the same way.

If you think that makes me the sort of person that condones this kind of chat or indulges on it, that's your call.

I overhear plenty of conversations in the office. Some I'd rather not, and some probably not intended to be overheard (like hearing people when approaching a room or them not realizing you're there). Albeit never any stuff like the OP, thankfully.

I'm still not convinced it's the best way to go to report a conversation between individuals and by the sounds of it, it's been counterproductive.

The poster that said they would just confront/have a word with the culprits in person is on to something, I feel.

Woodhenge

Woodhenge wrote: »

@Candie: Thinking it is a men vs women issue is missing the point, mixed teams will do this, women teams will do this, it's a matter of where your loyalty lies, if it is with the Tumblr or Twitter mobs, people of either sex won't want you on their team.

I never said it was a men vs women issue, I remarked that it's not just the men in this case that deserve loyalty; the women who are being demeaned, insulted, and 'rated' deserve it too.

I want everyone equally respected.

Carlos Orange

Gbear wrote: »

If there's been an issue with overzealousness on the part of management or they've handled it in a way that's ****ed up office morale then that's on management.

Management is there to protect the company not the OP. Maybe if they were super fab management there would be a decent result for all involved but most people aren't super fab.

dresden8

People near you were talking and you got them suspended.

Any idea why people don't want to talk near you?

Any at all?

clairewithani

These are my feelings on the subject.
1. I work with both men and women. Banter is banter. Rating people and passing comments on their appearance is not banter.
2. Anything said in a public place loud enough to be overheard is not a private conversation. Management has a vested interest in what is said/done during company time.
3. Workers will not be suspended for a one-off complaint so safe to say there were previous complaints.
4. If they were suspended it was because management felt there was a need so if so it can't be op's fault.
5. People who allow/support others berating other people are not nice people.

psinno

psinno wrote: »

Management is there to protect the company not the OP. Maybe if they were super fab management there would be a decent result for all involved but most people aren't super fab.

They do have to protect the op; from sexism in the workplace and from bullying in the workplace. If they don't, they can be accused of constructive dismissal if the atmosphere is so toxic she has to leave that job.

She did the right thing, and it shouldn't cost her personally in an ideal world, but it has. That doesn't mean she did the wrong thing.

nullzero

The men in question should at the very least be more discreet when having their conversations, although if these conversations are to be had the office is not an appropriate setting.

The action the OP took is understandable, personally my own instinct would be to speak to these men myself (I have done this in the past although not in this exact situation), however when you raise your head above the parapet you have to be willing to take any backlash that might occur, obviously complaining about your colleagues behavior (interestingly this would be the case regardless of what they are saying or doing) is going to make you somewhat unpopular.

Being a grown up sometimes involves standing up for principles which may make you unpopular but hey ho, just get on with it, the cat is out of the bag, if people don't like what you've done then to hell with them, you're in work to work not make friends.

Nermal

Candie wrote: »

Sexism in the workplace and from bullying in the workplace.

Overhearing rating comments is not suffering sexism or bullying.

Carlos Orange

Candie wrote: »

They do have to protect the op; from sexism in the workplace and from bullying in the workplace. If they don't, they can be accused of constructive dismissal if the atmosphere is so toxic she has to leave that job.

Management will only operate to protect the company. I wouldn't think a company can force employees to stay in a break room and make small talk with the OP but presumably there is existing precedent on whether they can be held liable that someone knowledgable could reference.

psinno

psinno wrote: »

Management will only operate to protect the company. I wouldn't think a company can force employees to stay in a break room and make small talk with the OP but presumably there is existing precedent on whether they can be held liable that someone knowledgable could quote.

Yes, I don't think anyone is suggesting people be held hostage and made to make small talk with the OP.

There's a middle ground between that and making the workplace intolerably hostile, but we can stick with the fallacious dilemma if you want.

swampgas

Candie wrote: »

That's why it's wise not to speak of the people you work with in insulting or demeaning ways. Or if you do, to expect to pay the consequences.

+1

It's a pretty basic concept - don't be a dick to your colleagues.

Somehow a lot of people don't get just how dickish their workplace behaviour is. A surprisingly large number of people don't understand that having a bit a banter with colleagues is not the same as talking ****e down the pub. Outside work if someone is bored of your crap they can move away or hang out with someone else. In the workplace people are stuck sitting a few feet away and have to listen to the same "banter" day in day out, if it's crude and offensive banter then it gets old awfully fast. I'm no precious snowflake but have changed jobs to get away from work colleagues who spent every lunch break trying to out-gross each other, and who assumed I was joking every time I told them I was tired of their sh*t.

It seems a lot of people can't read subtle signals either. Guys cracking crude jokes, and not tuning in to the fact that some people are uncomfortable with it. Get two or three people like that together in an office and it's a race to the bottom, and the sad fact is they seem completely unaware of how crude and unprofessional they are being - they get trapped in their own little bubble and then are genuinely shocked when they get pulled into HR for a chat.

mansize

swampgas wrote: »

+1

It's a pretty basic concept - don't be a dick to your colleagues.

Somehow a lot of people don't get just how dickish their workplace behaviour is. A surprisingly large number of people don't understand that having a bit a banter with colleagues is not the same as talking ****e down the pub. Outside work if someone is bored of your crap they can move away or hang out with someone else. In the workplace people are stuck sitting a few feet away and have to listen to the same "banter" day in day out, if it's crude and offensive banter then it gets old awfully fast. I'm no precious snowflake but have changed jobs to get away from work colleagues who spent every lunch break trying to out-gross each other, and who assumed I was joking every time I told them I was tired of their sh*t.

It seems a lot of people can't read subtle signals either. Guys cracking crude jokes, and not tuning in to the fact that some people are uncomfortable with it. Get two or three people like that together in an office and it's a race to the bottom, and the sad fact is they seem completely unaware of how crude and unprofessional they are being - they get trapped in their own little bubble and then are genuinely shocked when they get pulled into HR for a chat.

And HR are the "bad guys"

SteM

Jawgap wrote: »

Well the OP needs to get a job with you because by the sound of it their colleagues agree neither with you or the action of reporting the issue to management.

Trust is a precious commodity, be careful what you spend it on

Glib reply aside, you didn't answer my question. How long should this behaviour be allowed to continue before its reported do you think?

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

+1

It's a pretty basic concept - don't be a dick to your colleagues.

Somehow a lot of people don't get just how dickish their workplace behaviour is. A surprisingly large number of people don't understand that having a bit a banter with colleagues is not the same as talking ****e down the pub. Outside work if someone is bored of your crap they can move away or hang out with someone else. In the workplace people are stuck sitting a few feet away and have to listen to the same "banter" day in day out, if it's crude and offensive banter then it gets old awfully fast. I'm no precious snowflake but have changed jobs to get away from work colleagues who spent every lunch break trying to out-gross each other, and who assumed I was joking every time I told them I was tired of their sh*t.

It seems a lot of people can't read subtle signals either. Guys cracking crude jokes, and not tuning in to the fact that some people are uncomfortable with it. Get two or three people like that together in an office and it's a race to the bottom, and the sad fact is they seem completely unaware of how crude and unprofessional they are being - they get trapped in their own little bubble and then are genuinely shocked when they get pulled into HR for a chat.

And then they act like it's the first time it's been posited that other people might not enjoy their 'banter'. So the messenger gets shot.

I'm amazed how many people are trying to paint the OP in the wrong here. Maybe it strikes an uncomfortable chord with some of them.

mansize

Candie wrote: »

And then they act like it's the first time it's been posited that other people might not enjoy their 'banter'. So the messenger gets shot.

I'm amazed how many people are trying to paint the OP in the wrong here. Maybe it strikes an uncomfortable chord with some of them.

I would agree, some people must think life is a paddy power ad

anewme

Candie wrote: »

And then they act like it's the first time it's been posited that other people might not enjoy their 'banter'. So the messenger gets shot.

I'm amazed how many people are trying to paint the OP in the wrong here. Maybe it strikes an uncomfortable chord with some of them.

"Banter" has to be up the most mis used word in the dictionary.

Used to explain away a multitude.

Carlos Orange

Candie wrote: »

Yes, I don't think anyone is suggesting people be held hostage and made to make small talk with the OP.

There's a middle ground between that and making the workplace intolerably hostile, but we can stick with the fallacious dilemma if you want.

"When I walk into a room, people blank me and walk out."

This is the only description of behaviour I see (maybe I missed more). If there is a work interaction needed and people just walk out and blank her then something can be done. If it is a break room/canteen what can management do apart from insist that staff reciprocate a hello on the way out?

wakka12

Deub wrote: »

Agree. Some people are offended with so little nowdays that soon the weather will be the only subject of conversations at work.

Well if you have no personality sure then the only things to talk about are the weather and how physical attractiveness of other employees

Renegade Mechanic

Look lads and lassies, it's a fact of life yer just going to have to toughen up and accept

Good looking people will be talked about behind their backs. Ugly people will be sniggered at.
I expect I've been joked about plenty behind my own back, given the material people working with me would have to work with.

Oh, my poor feelings, someone thinks I look like a demented 80 year olds ball sack and wouldn't "score" in a brothel if I walked in with a million euros stuck to my micropenis, booooo hoooooo where's the nearest solicitor? :rolleyes:

The smart thing to do when "overhearing" a conversation is mind your own business, unless is concerns something important like framing someone to get them fired or something.
You know, something actually important...

People are going to talk about people and sometimes it's not going to be nice.
You will never, ever change that.
But go ahead and ruin your lives trying.

anewme

And this too shall pass..............

This is just a moment in time. Workplace situations don't stay the same for long. cliques break overnight.

Op just needs to hold her her nerve.

Just be professional, normal, open.

People will forget why they are supposed to blank OP.