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African American attitudes

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Overheal wrote: »
    Help!!!! wrote: »
    It's not fair or logical to stop and frisk black neighborhoods when whites carry the same amount of drugs and commit the same kind of crimes. I have yet to see mandatory psychiatric screening for all young white males even though they are the most at risk to commit violent mass shootings.

    That's actually a racist assumption your making there that's not been backed up by evidence, white men aren't the most common per capita mass killers.
    According to one way of looking at it black men are https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/23/mass-shootings-tracker-analysis-us-gun-control-reddit

    According to other recording methods whites are also well down the list compared to populationhttps://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

    Interesting how some racist myths are ok to perpetuate


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Overheal wrote: »

    That's actually a racist assumption your making there that's not been backed up by evidence, white men aren't the most common per capita mass killers.
    According to one way of looking at it black men are https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/23/mass-shootings-tracker-analysis-us-gun-control-reddit

    According to other recording methods whites are also well down the list compared to populationhttps://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

    Interesting how some racist myths are ok to perpetuate

    I didn't say that, it was part of another post


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I guess it's a good thing I didn't say that, then. So there should be no attempt to address the endemic racism in society until the victims of that racism make the first move?

    That's charitable of you.

    No I didn't say it shouldn't be addressed until they make the first move. There was a black president in power for the last 8 years & what has he done about it? Maybe he didn't think it was such a big problem


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    No I didn't say it shouldn't be addressed until they make the first move.
    Actually, you did. There was a distinct sequence implied by the fact that your second sentence started with "Then".
    There was a black president in power for the last 8 years & what has he done about it?
    You think endemic racism is controlled by a switch in the Oval Office?
    Maybe he didn't think it was such a big problem
    Maybe you should shake off your preconceptions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Actually, you did. There was a distinct sequence implied by the fact that your second sentence started with "Then". You think endemic racism is controlled by a switch in the Oval Office? Maybe you should shake off your preconceptions.

    So you think that the black community should have to do nothing, just carry on seeing their young people killed. There are no white people forcing a black person to kill another black person.
    You talk about endemic racism in the judiciary system but I'm sure there's plenty of black judges giving the same sentences to black people as a white judge would.
    Just coz you've read a book on the subject doesn't mean you or the author are experts


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Sorry don't know how that happened I was addressing overheals comment


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Sorry don't know how that happened I was addressing overheals comment

    No probs, but your comment was correct though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,308 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sorry don't know how that happened I was addressing overheals comment

    Someone used quote tags inappropriately. It's the vbulletin equivalent of a reply-allpocalypse.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    So you think that the black community should have to do nothing, just carry on seeing their young people killed.
    Nope. We'll have a much more intelligent conversation if you address what I say instead of what you think I mean.
    There are no white people forcing a black person to kill another black person.
    There's nobody forcing police officers to kill unarmed black people either, but it keeps happening.
    You talk about endemic racism in the judiciary system but I'm sure there's plenty of black judges giving the same sentences to black people as a white judge would.
    You're sure of that, are you? Are you sure of it because it fits in with your preconceived ideas, or because you've researched the topic thoroughly and arrived at a reasoned conclusion?
    Just coz you've read a book on the subject doesn't mean you or the author are experts
    I don't claim to be an expert (the author most certainly is). On the other hand, I'm not the one arriving at conclusions without bothering to acquaint myself with the facts first.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Overheal wrote: »
    Sorry don't know how that happened I was addressing overheals comment

    Someone used quote tags inappropriately. It's the vbulletin equivalent of a reply-allpocalypse.

    Avoid the point that you repeat anti-factual racist stereotypes


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's an interesting thesis. Have you checked whether the level of police scrutiny and incarceration, when controlled for socio-economic background, is the same for blacks and whites?

    I'll give you a clue: it's not.

    There is an endemic racism inherent in much of the American justice system. Coming up with twee theories to handwave it away isn't going to help.

    Have you checked whether the crime rate between blacks and whites is proportionately the same?

    I'll give you a clue: it's not.

    Blacks committed half of all violent crimes in the US, despite only accounting for 12% of the population - maybe if you weren't shooting people, cops wouldn't be so jumpy on the trigger?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    Blacks committed half of all violent crimes in the US, despite only accounting for 12% of the population - maybe if you weren't shooting people, cops wouldn't be so jumpy on the trigger?

    ...because cops only shoot black people who commit violent crimes, right?

    The endemic racism in the justice system is well-documented, from street harassment to sentencing disparities to government policy. All the arguments to try to justify it won't change that fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...because cops only shoot black people who commit violent crimes, right?

    Because no white person has ever been killed by a cop?
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The endemic racism in the justice system is well-documented, from street harassment to sentencing disparities to government policy. All the arguments to try to justify it won't change that fact.

    You'll need to actually provide proof of the "well-documented" racism instead of just claiming it.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    Because no white person has ever been killed by a cop?
    Let me guess: all lives matter?
    You'll need to actually provide proof of the "well-documented" racism instead of just claiming it.
    The nice thing about it being well documented is that it's easy to find if you go looking for it.

    Here's a starting point. There are 87 references at the end for you to work through.

    If, on the other hand, you've already decided that it's black people's fault for just being inherently more violent than whites, then don't bother doing the research. It won't change your mind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    oscarBravo Do you or have you ever lived outside of Ireland??


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,657 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    oscarBravo Do you or have you ever lived outside of Ireland??

    Stay on topic please.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    Stay on topic please.

    Sorry was just asking as to whether or not the person had any first hand knowledge or whether they were just going by what they've read.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Let me guess: all lives matter?

    You're the one who tried to phrase it in a smart ass way as though no innocent has ever been killed.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The nice thing about it being well documented is that it's easy to find if you go looking for it.

    It's not up to me to provide evidence to support your claims. You're the one who made that claim, you're the one who needs to find evidence of it.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Here's a starting point. There are 87 references at the end for you to work through.

    So, you're too lazy to find things to support your claim?

    From your own link:
    Studies have found that a decreasing percentage of the overrepresentation of blacks in the U.S. criminal justice system can be explained by racial differences in offending: 80% in 1979, 76% in 1991, and 61% in 2004.

    But, of course, you don't care much for facts and instead you want to just blame everyone else.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If, on the other hand, you've already decided that it's black people's fault for just being inherently more violent than whites, then don't bother doing the research. It won't change your mind.

    I never made any such claim. I claimed blacks commit more violent crime than whites, which they do. That's a fact.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    You're the one who tried to phrase it in a smart ass way as though no innocent has ever been killed.
    I didn't write that. I can't help it if you read it.
    So, you're too lazy to find things to support your claim?
    It's not a claim. It's a fact.

    Are you arguing that there isn't endemic racism in the American justice system?
    I claimed blacks commit more violent crime than whites, which they do. That's a fact.
    And you're not interested in addressing the socio-economic factors that contribute to that fact?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I didn't write that. I can't help it if you read it. It's not a claim. It's a fact.

    No?

    Then what did you mean by
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...because cops only shoot black people who commit violent crimes, right?

    You weren't passive-aggressively trying to assert that the cops kill a disproportionate amount of innocent black people?
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Are you arguing that there isn't endemic racism in the American justice system?

    Your own link makes that argument, as per the piece I already quoted to you. The law is the law, it doesn't take colour into account.

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    And you're not interested in addressing the socio-economic factors that contribute to that fact?

    Nowhere did I state this, and nowhere did I take issue with this. I took issue with you trying to ignore the facts (that African Americans commit more crime per capita in the US) and just painting everything as racist.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    I believe it is the mindset of present day African Americans that needs to change if they are to improve their lot.

    Well what about the Justice department report on the situation in Ferguson?

    What you're asserting completely ignores that and I wonder why that is?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    You'll need to actually provide proof of the "well-documented" racism instead of just claiming it.

    Here is a link to the Justie Department's report on the situation in Ferguson, Mo, that led to the riots there.

    You should read it. Systematic racism and using the african american population basically as a cash cow to be fined whenever possible.

    https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Let me guess: all lives matter? The nice thing about it being well documented is that it's easy to find if you go looking for it.

    Here's a starting point. There are 87 references at the end for you to work through.

    If, on the other hand, you've already decided that it's black people's fault for just being inherently more violent than whites, then don't bother doing the research. It won't change your mind.

    While I certainly don't subscribe to a view that labels blacks as inherently violent, it is incontrovertible that they account for far more violence statistically.

    I think poverty more likely to account for a community's level of crime and violence, and solutions to said issue need to address that fundamental fact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015
    2. More whites and Hispanics die from police homicides than blacks.
    3. The Post's data does show that unarmed black men are more likely to die by the gun of a cop than an unarmed white man...but this does not tell the whole story
    4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers
    5. Blacks are more likely to kill cops than be killed by cops.

    for the full read

    http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    I think poverty more likely to account for a community's level of crime and violence, and solutions to said issue need to address that fundamental fact.

    Well you should read the Justice department report I posted above.

    The situation in Ferguson isnt unique either.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    No?

    Then what did you mean by
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...because cops only shoot black people who commit violent crimes, right?
    It was in response to your comment that the police shoot black people because black people commit violent crimes. I thought that was obvious.

    The Black Lives Matter movement didn't arise as a result of the police shooting armed criminals, after all.
    The law is the law, it doesn't take colour into account.
    If you got that from a single sentence that goes against the overall thrust of the 4,000-plus-word article that contained it, I'm at a loss as to what could persuade you.
    I took issue with you trying to ignore the facts (that African Americans commit more crime per capita in the US) and just painting everything as racist.
    I haven't ignored that fact, and I'm not "painting everything as racist", whatever that means.

    Yes, African Americans commit more crime per capita. This is not entirely surprising considering that they are also per capita more disadvantaged, which in turn is a legacy of a society that was so explicitly racist as to have fought a civil war over the right to own slaves.

    My argument is not that the endemic racism in the American justice system is the only problem; my argument is that claiming that such endemic racism doesn't exist is an excuse not to do anything about it, which is to perpetuate it.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    While I certainly don't subscribe to a view that labels blacks as inherently violent, it is incontrovertible that they account for far more violence statistically.

    I think poverty more likely to account for a community's level of crime and violence, and solutions to said issue need to address that fundamental fact.

    You're half-way there. Yes, poverty tends to account for criminality. The next step is to understand that racial discrimination is one of the root causes of poverty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Here is a link to the Justie Department's report on the situation in Ferguson, Mo, that led to the riots there.

    You should read it. Systematic racism and using the african american population basically as a cash cow to be fined whenever possible.

    https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

    From just a customary reading of the procedures
    FPD records show that once a warrant issues, racial disparities in FPD’s warrant execution practices make it exceedingly more likely for a black individual with an outstanding warrant to be arrested than a white individual with an outstanding warrant. Arrest data captured by FPD often fails to identify when a person is arrested solely on account of an outstanding warrant. Nonetheless, the data FPD collects during traffic stops pursuant to Missouri state requirements does capture information regarding when arrests are made for no other reason than that an arrest warrant was pending. Based upon that data, from October 2012 to October 2014, FPD arrested 460 individuals exclusively because the person had an outstanding arrest warrant. Of those 460 people arrested, 443, or 96%, were black. That African Americans are disproportionately impacted by FPD’s warrant execution practices is also reflected in the fact that, during the roughly six-month period from April to September 2014, African Americans accounted for 96% of those booked into the Ferguson City Jail at least in part because they were arrested for an outstanding municipal warrant.

    This part has some grit to it, but again it could be confirmation bias - it could simply be that they stop the same amount of people on the street but there happens to be a disproportionate number of black criminals they arrest. I presume they're stopping stereotypical people on the street - whites and blacks who dress like gangsters.

    See (b) disparate impact of court practices for a further reason behind it.
    Although available data enables an assessment of the disparate impact of many FPD practices, many other practices cannot be assessed statistically because of FPD’s inadequate data collection. FPD does not reliably collect or track data regarding pedestrian stops, or FPD officers’ conduct during those stops. Given this lack of data, we are unable to determine whether African Americans are disproportionately the subjects of pedestrian stops, or the rate of searches, arrests, or other post-pedestrian stop outcomes. We note, however, that during our investigation we have spoken with not only black community members who have been stopped by FPD officers, but also non-black community members and employees of local businesses who have observed FPD conduct pedestrian stops of others, all of whom universally report that pedestrian stops in Ferguson almost always involve African-American youth. Even though FPD does not specifically track pedestrian stops, other FPD records are consistent with those accounts. Arrest and other incident reports sometimes describe encounters that begin with pedestrian stops, almost all of which involve African Americans.

    This seems to be erring on the side of confirmation bias without any actual supporting evidence, it says so in the initial phase of the paragraph.

    This part (b) is more interesting helps to explain why African Americans are more likely to be arrested with outstanding warrants - they're simply more likely to have them.
    also exert a disparate impact on African Americans. As discussed above, once a charge is filed in Ferguson municipal court, a number of procedural barriers imposed by the court combine to make it unnecessarily difficult to resolve the charge. Data created and maintained by the court show that black defendants are significantly more likely to be adversely impacted by those barriers. An assessment of every charge filed in Ferguson municipal court in 2011 shows that, over time, black defendants are more likely to have their cases persist for longer durations, more likely to face a higher number of mandatory court appearances and other requirements, and more likely to have a warrant issued against them for failing to meet those requirements.

    In light of the opaque court procedures previously discussed, the likelihood of running afoul of a court requirement increases when a case lasts for a longer period of time and results in more court encounters. Court cases involving black individuals typically last longer than those involving white individuals. Of the 2,369 charges filed against white defendants in 2011, over 63% were closed after six months. By contrast, only 34% of the 10,984 charges against black defendants were closed within that time period. 10% of black defendants, however, resolved their case between six months and a year from when it was filed, while 9% of white defendants required that much time to secure resolution. And, while 17% of black defendants resolved their charge over a year after it was brought against them, only 9% of white defendants required that much time. Each of these cases was ultimately resolved, in most instances by satisfying debts owed to the court; but this data shows substantial disparities between blacks and whites regarding how long it took to do so.

    On average, African Americans are also more likely to have a high number of “events” occur before a case is resolved. The court’s records track all activities that occur in a case—from payments and court appearances to continuances and Failure to Appear charges. 11% of cases involving African Americans had three “events,” whereas 10% of cases involving white defendants had three events. 14% of cases involving black defendants had four to five events, compared with 9% of cases involving white defendants. Those disparities increase as the recorded number of events per case increases. Data show that there are ten or more events in 17% of cases involving black defendants but only 5% of cases involving white defendants. Given that an “event” can represent a variety of different kinds of occurrences, these particular disparities are perhaps less probative; nonetheless, they strongly suggest that black defendants have, on average, more encounters with the court during a single case than their white peers. Given the figures above, it is perhaps unsurprising that the municipal court’s practice of issuing warrants to compel fine payments following a missed court appearance or missed payment has a disparate impact on black defendants. 92% of all warrants issued in 2013 were issued in cases involving an African-American defendant. This figure is disproportionate to the representation of African Americans in the court’s docket. Although the proportion of court cases involving black defendants has increased in recent years—81% of all cases filed in 2009, compared with 85% of all cases filed in 2013—that proportion remains substantially below the proportion of warrants issued to African Americans.


    So, in summary, the longer a case drags on, the more likely you are to have a warrant issued (which results in the "disproportionate" likelihood of blacks to be arrested.

    This can be drawn out to simple financial differences, whites are more likely to be able to settle their differences early on whilst blacks are more likely to have "events" including missing court summons and so forth.




    Honestly, this finding is riddled with half-truths and politically twisted findings. Truly the work of a lawyer :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It was in response to your comment that the police shoot black people because black people commit violent crimes. I thought that was obvious.

    And the reason cops shoot them is because as a group they're infinitely more likely to shoot them.

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes, African Americans commit more crime per capita. This is not entirely surprising considering that they are also per capita more disadvantaged, which in turn is a legacy of a society that was so explicitly racist as to have fought a civil war over the right to own slaves.

    And that is why the cops are more anxious and likely to whip out their gun in neighbourhoods with high concentrations of blacks. It's simple human instinct, if a group is statistically more dangerous, you're going to be on edge around them.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    My argument is not that the endemic racism in the American justice system is the only problem; my argument is that claiming that such endemic racism doesn't exist is an excuse not to do anything about it, which is to perpetuate it.

    You're completely ignoring the reason why cops are on edge in these areas, blaming it on racism, which is utterly nonsensical. I guarantee you that if there's a neighbourhood filled with black lawyers and doctors, the likelihood of being shot by the police is next to 0. Likewise, if there's a neighbourhood full of white crack addicts and gangsters, your likelihood of being shot is going to be a lot higher. That's simple logic.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    You're completely ignoring the reason why cops are on edge in these areas...
    No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that racism is endemic in the American justice system. I'm not denying the other factors in play; just pointing out that as long as there is endemic racism, attempting to change other things is futile.

    You, on the other hand, are flatly denying the existence of endemic racism. I don't know what you hope to achieve by that, but I don't see any more point arguing it with you than I would arguing with a flat-earther or a climate change denier.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    From just a customary reading of the procedures

    "Partly as a consequence of City and FPD priorities, many officers appear to see some residents, especially those who live in Ferguson’s predominantly African-American neighborhoods, less as constituents to be protected than as potential offenders and sources of revenue."
    Save


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    I guarantee you that if there's a neighbourhood filled with black lawyers and doctors, the likelihood of being shot by the police is next to 0. Likewise, if there's a neighbourhood full of white crack addicts and gangsters, your likelihood of being shot is going to be a lot higher. That's simple logic.

    Black lawyers, doctors and even police officers are just as likely to be pulled over for DWB as any other african american.

    Racism is alive and well in the United States.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that racism is endemic in the American justice system. I'm not denying the other factors in play; just pointing out that as long as there is endemic racism, attempting to change other things is futile.

    You, on the other hand, are flatly denying the existence of endemic racism. I don't know what you hope to achieve by that, but I don't see any more point arguing it with you than I would arguing with a flat-earther or a climate change denier.

    I am denying it because you have yet to provide any proof of it that can't be explained by other factors. You're taking Occam's Razor to an illogical extreme, that somehow this all boils down to the racist white man and his corrupt justice system.

    The reason you don't see any more reason to argue with me is because your entire argument hinges on "but racism" being responsible for it somewhere down the line.

    Stop infantilising them, the only person looking to make excuses for race is you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    "Partly as a consequence of City and FPD priorities, many officers appear to see some residents, especially those who live in Ferguson’s predominantly African-American neighborhoods, less as constituents to be protected than as potential offenders

    Which makes sense considering the excerpts from I've taken from the judgement.
    InTheTrees wrote: »
    and sources of revenue."

    Politicised conjecture and hearsay with no evidence to back it up, as had already been held within that judgement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Black lawyers, doctors and even police officers are just as likely to be pulled over for DWB as any other african american.

    I'm going to need a source for that.

    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Racism is alive and well in the United States.

    You know the average white person is more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by police?

    I agree, racism is alive and well. Just not in the segments of society you think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    Politicised conjecture and hearsay with no evidence to back it up, as had already been held within that judgement.

    Thats an incredibly lazy argument to make. You're arguing against the Justice Department report and saying there's no evidence?

    Were you not paying attention when all this was happening? The investigations, the hearings?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    You know the average white person is more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by police?

    There's no evidence of that at all.

    :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Thats an incredibly lazy argument to make. You're arguing against the Justice Department report and saying there's no evidence?

    No, the Justice Department themselves have said there's no proof of it and they were relying on accounts from people in the area.
    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Were you not paying attention when all this was happening? The investigations, the hearings?

    When Africans were out burning police cars and vandalising stores? Gee, that wouldn't politicise the report at all. :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    When Africans were out burning police cars and vandalising stores? Gee, that wouldn't politicise the report at all. :o

    Why would it? You're still unable to verbalize how the FBI report is false?

    You just think its wrong because..why? Its all an invention?





    Save


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166 ✭✭blueskys


    I happened to live in the states for a few years. From what i found
    a lot of black people are also quite poor and live in poorer areas with
    not a lot of resources. Many families get by just on food stamps from which i recall was a pittance.I actually got on really well with the ones i got to know and worked/socialised with, really nice people as a whole.
    A lot of police officers i met ( and i socially got to know a fair share) are downright racist, not just to blacks but to latinos etc.. It's like they can't separate the poverty issues from race. Many white people are also casually
    racist to an extent that shocked me. America is a great country but it is really divided both racially and financially. Most people, like most people everywhere of any colour, just want to get on but if you are born poor over there unless you are lucky it is very hard to 'make it ' in any sense of the word. Even a lot of the rich white people i knew were up to their assess in debt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    There's no evidence of that at all.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
    Overall, killings of blacks by whites and whites by blacks accounted for about 12 percent of the roughly 6,000 homicides last year in which police had information about the race of both victim and killer – a slight increase from around 11 percent in 2014. About 15.8 percent of white victims were killed by blacks last year, and 8.6 percent of black victims were killed by whites.

    Similarly, there was around 6000 Blacks killed in 2015 iirc but only 300 were by cops. That's what, 5%?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Why would it? You're still unable to verbalize how the FBI report is false?

    You know the FBI and Justice Department are two separate entities?
    InTheTrees wrote: »
    You just think its wrong because..why? Its all an invention?

    Because they said they don't have any proof of it and were relying on first hand accounts... Did you even read the parts I quoted from that document?

    Here, I'll just quote the part of it again.
    Although available data enables an assessment of the disparate impact of many FPD practices, many other practices cannot be assessed statistically because of FPD’s inadequate data collection. FPD does not reliably collect or track data regarding pedestrian stops, or FPD officers’ conduct during those stops. Given this lack of data, we are unable to determine whether African Americans are disproportionately the subjects of pedestrian stops, or the rate of searches, arrests, or other post-pedestrian stop outcomes.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    The cities and places where most of this black on black crime occurs are also the areas that have been ruled for decades by Democratic majorities. Think of places like Baltimore and Chicago. Therein lies the issue. If we take the claim that there is systemic racism in the justice system (it may be a part of the issue not by no means the whole issue at heart) then are we saying that the Democrats are systemically racist as well?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    The left leaning think tank the Brookings Institute have come up with 3 steps for all American teenagers in avoiding poverty and join the middle class.

    They are

    1. Graduating from high school.

    2. Waiting to get married until after 21 and do not have children till after being married.

    3. Having a full-time job.

    Unfortunately, for the African American community, they fair miserably in regards the above steps.
    With this debate, all we hear is cops are bad, black people are victims, yada yada etc..
    We rarely hear of the above steps in trying to get black communities out of poverty and into the middle class.

    Im of the opinion that it suits many in the Democratic party fine to have the black community there as poor and suffering, as if the black community did enter average american wealth and class levels, they will no longer vote 90/10 in favour of the democrats, they would break more towards 60/40 or even 50/50. Again, look at Irish Americans. Traditionally very Democrat leaning but now very much Republican.

    Look at the Hispanic population, they now number more then the African American population and are growing. They voted 70/30 for the Democrats, even after Trump said he would deport millions of Mexicans.... The Latino population are also richer and better educated in general then the African American population already, even though they are generally a newish demographic in terms of its size. How did they achieve this? Well the follow the above steps more successfully then the African Americans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    blueskys wrote: »
    I happened to live in the states for a few years. From what i found
    a lot of black people are also quite poor and live in poorer areas with
    not a lot of resources. Many families get by just on food stamps from which i recall was a pittance.I actually got on really well with the ones i got to know and worked/socialised with, really nice people as a whole.
    A lot of police officers i met ( and i socially got to know a fair share) are downright racist, not just to blacks but to latinos etc.. It's like they can't separate the poverty issues from race. Many white people are also casually
    racist to an extent that shocked me. America is a great country but it is really divided both racially and financially. Most people, like most people everywhere of any colour, just want to get on but if you are born poor over there unless you are lucky it is very hard to 'make it ' in any sense of the word. Even a lot of the rich white people i knew were up to their assess in debt.

    I agree. Twenty years here and you can see its deep and ingrained.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    They are
    1. Graduating from high school.
    2. Waiting to get married until after 21 and do not have children till after being married.
    3. Having a full-time job.
    Unfortunately, for the African American community, they fair miserably in regards the above steps.

    But realistically why do they fair badly? And how then do you get them to do better?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    But realistically why do they fair badly? And how then do you get them to do better?

    Well the government have to take a lot of blame I think, especially in the way welfare programs create poverty traps. You also have to look at the Democrats and their beholding nature to the Teaching unions.

    African Americans should stop voting Democrat in my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    W
    African Americans should stop voting Democrat in my opinion.

    How do you think the republicans will help?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    How do you think the republicans will help?

    Well their votes will not be taken for granted anymore for starters. Republicans are very much for things like charter schools and school voucher programs which will give African American parents a choice in where to send their kids to school.

    This would help in getting more of them a high school diploma. Step 1 in the 3 step process. And as old fashioned as it sounds, they could, I repeat, could help in step two, as people now realise the fact that 72% of African American babies are born into unwed households, the vast vast majority of them to single mothers, does not help African Americans escape poverty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭FatherTed


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Well their votes will not be taken for granted anymore for starters. Republicans are very much for things like charter schools and school voucher programs which will give African American parents a choice in where to send their kids to school.

    This would help in getting more of them a high school diploma. Step 1 in the 3 step process. And as old fashioned as it sounds, they could, I repeat, could help in step two, as people now realise the fact that 72% of African American babies are born into unwed households, the vast vast majority of them to single mothers, does not help African Americans escape poverty.
    What are they going to do about the racial disparities at every phase of the justice system?


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