Seasoned firewood is not as advertised

DamoKen

Hi, recently bought 4 cubic metres of hardwood for a stove from what I thought was a reputable firewood company. Their website stated the wood was between 15% & 20% but after problems getting the stove lit and hissing from the wood once I did I did some readings on a random selection (some of which was softwood). Some were around the 20% mark but this was about 1 in 6 logs, the average reading was mid 30's right up to 50%.

Instead of just calling outright I brought some samples to another company recommended by the stove installer to rule out a faulty moisture meter. He did readings with two separate meters and results were the same as mine.

Called the seller and told him about the readings. He immediately got really defensive, didn't let me get a word in saying out of every 40 calls he gets one like mine out and the moisture meter I have is sh*t even though I hadn't told him the brand. Managed to tell him I'd had independent readings and he said he has repeat customers who are happy with his product and it was a great deal and the other company probably cost a fortune. Basically said there's no pleasing some people.

Told him it was not what I paid for and was useless to me for the next year. Long and short he said the law states caveat emptor and laughed when I said it was false advertising telling me I should take him to the small claims court.

Said I should have checked before it was unloaded to which I replied on his website it said the driver will perform a check in front of me but he hung up before I finished. I had asked the driver if he was going to do the reading and he said he didn't know anything about that.

At the end he was shouting, said what do I want and then laughed when I said I would like a refund saying good luck with that. Said he'd two suggestions, either 20% off the next load with no admission of guilt, didn't tell me the second option but had a feeling it was along the lines of tough sh*t, bit mental to be honest.

So, is there any comeback from this? Bit screwed at the moment, that was my budget for winter

Should also mention I wasn't given a receipt. Only thought about it after the driver was gone and somehow don't think I'll get one now.

Cheers

Paulw

Small claims court.

DamoKen

Cheers Paul, would this be applicable without a receipt? Have a couple of emails and texts when he was looking for the house but nothing to confirm it was delivered. Also asked if I could pay by card and he asked for cash so no trail there. Maybe that's why he was a bit gloating when he said take him to the small claims court, no paper trail and he knows it?

Kristopherus

DamoKen wrote: »

Cheers Paul, would this be applicable without a receipt? Have a couple of emails and texts when he was looking for the house but nothing to confirm it was delivered. Also asked if I could pay by card and he asked for cash so no trail there. Maybe that's why he was a bit gloating when he said take him to the small claims court, no paper trail and he knows it?

Did you pay in cash?

DamoKen

Yeah asked what way do they want payment on one of the texts and he texted back saying cash on delivery. Was off sick from work on the day of the delivery so was a bit slow on the meds, forgot to ask for a receipt and none was offered. Only thought about it later.

Paulw

With texts and other info, you may have enough to bring a case. Keep copies of everything.

dudara

Before you do the small claims court, write a registered letter asking for resolution, and letting them know that you will proceed to the Small Claims Court within XX working days if no resolution is received.

Then, assuming you get no response, proceed to the Small Claims Court

DamoKen

Cheers guys, might try the letter first. Last thing I want is to have to go through the small claims court, lot going on with doing up an old house after a recent move, baby on the way etc so don't really have the time to get into a legal row. To be honest it wasn't even a consideration until I called the seller. I thought we could resolve it fairly with little loss on either side. Instead he was very aggressive, insulting and just didn't care that his product was not fit for purpose. Got the impression complaints are a regular occurrence considering how quickly he started shouting, it was like I was trying to rip him off, not the other way round.

Thanks again

eeguy

DamoKen wrote: »

Cheers guys, might try the letter first. Last thing I want is to have to go through the small claims court, lot going on with doing up an old house after a recent move, baby on the way etc so don't really have the time to get into a legal row. To be honest it wasn't even a consideration until I called the seller. I thought we could resolve it fairly with little loss on either side. Instead he was very aggressive, insulting and just didn't care that his product was not fit for purpose. Got the impression complaints are a regular occurrence considering how quickly he started shouting, it was like I was trying to rip him off, not the other way round.

Thanks again

Did you record the call? A call recorder app is fierce handy, even if it's only to play back the wife's shopping list.

Effects

DamoKen wrote: »

Also asked if I could pay by card and he asked for cash so no trail there. Maybe that's why he was a bit gloating when he said take him to the small claims court, no paper trail and he knows it?

Sounds like Revenue might be interested in his business.

DamoKen

eeguy wrote: »

Did you record the call? A call recorder app is fierce handy, even if it's only to play back the wife's shopping list.

No, only thought about it in hindsight considering how the call went if for no other reason than no-one would believe how quickly he went from talking normally to losing the plot with no provocation other than saying the firewood was a lot wetter than advertised.

Decided not to mention it was also liberally peppered with softwood despite paying for hardwood, nor that in the opinions of both the other supplier and a friend who clears a lot of trees on his farm it was between 2 & 2.5 cubic metres max , not 4 as advertised.

Considering his reaction to the first piece of news I thought it wiser to keep that to myself.

TheDoc

eeguy wrote: »

Did you record the call? A call recorder app is fierce handy, even if it's only to play back the wife's shopping list.

You need to declare you are recording a call, and the other party has every right to just hang up.

That is if you have intention of using it in court or as part of litigation.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

DamoKen

Effects wrote: »

Sounds like Revenue might be interested in his business.

A friend did suggest this. I have to admit the thought was tempting considering the gloating smugness when it became obvious he knew he'd sold me a dud. Still, informing on someone whereby they could lose their livelihood doesn't sit well with me. I know revenue encourage it and it's probably the right thing to do, but to be honest I think I'd be doing it for the wrong reasons, i.e. petty revenge.

eeguy

DamoKen wrote: »

A friend did suggest this. I have to admit the thought was tempting considering the gloating smugness when it became obvious he knew he'd sold me a dud. Still, informing on someone whereby they could lose their livelihood doesn't sit well with me. I know revenue encourage it and it's probably the right thing to do, but to be honest I think I'd be doing it for the wrong reasons, i.e. petty revenge.

If you get your money back you'll have sent a message that he can't just f*ck with anyone. It might make him more honest in the future.

MFlack2012

DamoKen wrote: »

Cheers Paul, would this be applicable without a receipt? Have a couple of emails and texts when he was looking for the house but nothing to confirm it was delivered. Also asked if I could pay by card and he asked for cash so no trail there. Maybe that's why he was a bit gloating when he said take him to the small claims court, no paper trail and he knows it?

A letter or email is the best way forward, clearly stating your consumer rights and that you have no problem going down the Small Claims route. Keep all emails, texts and logs of further phone calls and do a rough draft of what you remember from the previous call (Just so you have quotes). Take pictures of the items you have left over = paper trail Good luck in Small Claims By the way, not all Small Claims cases go to court, most are done through post. I've had numerous Small Claims cases go through against faulty items and only one ever went to Court.

intheclouds

DamoKen wrote: »

A friend did suggest this. I have to admit the thought was tempting considering the gloating smugness when it became obvious he knew he'd sold me a dud. Still, informing on someone whereby they could lose their livelihood doesn't sit well with me. I know revenue encourage it and it's probably the right thing to do, but to be honest I think I'd be doing it for the wrong reasons, i.e. petty revenge.

How would he lose his livelihood? Revenue would audit and if he owed there would be a payment plan. They're not in the business of shutting down businesses otherwise how would they get their money?

Cash payment and no receipt, I'd definitely be reporting it to the revenue.

On the rest of it ask your independent testers to write up their findings and send same to him via registered letter requesting resolution by a certain date otherwise you will be forced to go small claims.

AlanG

DamoKen wrote: »

A friend did suggest this. I have to admit the thought was tempting considering the gloating smugness when it became obvious he knew he'd sold me a dud. Still, informing on someone whereby they could lose their livelihood doesn't sit well with me. I know revenue encourage it and it's probably the right thing to do, but to be honest I think I'd be doing it for the wrong reasons, i.e. petty revenge.

If he is not paying appropriate taxes he is using the added margin to put legitimate people out of business and work.
Next time you have to wait at an underfunded hospital or police station you can comfort yourself by knowing you didn't report out a scumbag who had no problem ripping you and the country off.

DamoKen

AlanG wrote: »

If he is not paying appropriate taxes he is using the added margin to put legitimate people out of business and work.
Next time you have to wait at an underfunded hospital or police station you can comfort yourself by knowing you didn't report out a scumbag who had no problem ripping you and the country off.

According to Consumer Protection the seller is not obliged to provide a receipt so this is not an indication that he's not paying tax.

Called this morning so they'll get back to me with the best options to pursue. As far as they're concerned I'm definitely entitled to redress so will see what they come back with. If this leads to trading standards feeling revenue should be involved that's up to them.

It's better than me overreacting and jumping to conclusions and allows a small degree of comfort that by going through the correct channels I'm not party to hospitals closing.

screamer

I dunno, you might be entitled to redress but how are you going to prove that you didn't leave the firewood outside in the rain leading to the moisture content? that's the first thing that would come to mind, once the goods pass to the consumer, how does the supplier know that it's not something that the consumer did that caused the problem. I'm not dis-believing you for a second BTW but it is something that could be difficult to prove.

DamoKen

screamer wrote: »

I dunno, you might be entitled to redress but how are you going to prove that you didn't leave the firewood outside in the rain leading to the moisture content? that's the first thing that would come to mind, once the goods pass to the consumer, how does the supplier know that it's not something that the consumer did that caused the problem. I'm not dis-believing you for a second BTW but it is something that could be difficult to prove.

That's a good point. Thankfully the day it arrived I had two electricians working in the house. They were in and out of the yard as I was bringing it into an old stable block with a new roof (attached to the main house where we had the roof replaced two months back so did the stable at the same time). I was just bringing in the last wheelbarrow load as they were finishing up.

Also took a pic which I sent via whatsapp to my wife just as I'd started to bring it in, can can clearly see the wood outside as well as that already brought in with a timestamp of when it happened. Timestamp is around 30 min after the last text from the driver looking for the house.

Effects

DamoKen wrote: »

A friend did suggest this.Still, informing on someone whereby they could lose their livelihood doesn't sit well with me.

I was actually hinting at you using the threat as a way of getting your money back. No matter how legit he is, no one wants an audit from Revenue.

DamoKen

Effects wrote: »

I was actually hinting at you using the threat as a way of getting your money back. No matter how legit he is, no one wants an audit from Revenue.

No worries, reread what I wrote and realised it may have come across a bit stronger than intended. Hard to proof read in work

Thought crossed my mind to mention it to see if it would prompt a refund. As he knows where I live though not sure I want to go down that road. He sounded a little unbalanced. No one should lose their temper as quickly as he did, all it took was for me to mention moisture readings and he went from normal to shouting in less that two sentences, and that was before I even managed to tell him I'd had independent readings. First thing he said when I mentioned moisture was "right before this gets abusive". Wasn't sure what he meant straight away, finally realised he was talking about himself (I think).

Going to see what Consumer Protection come back with. I'll be honest though, on reflection although it's something I can ill afford financially I've enough going on without adding the stress of dealing with a nutter. I'll be happy enough if they investigate his advertising claims and either force him to stand by them or change his website to accurately portray what he's selling and the next person who buys off him gets what they've paid for. At least I've got a fair bit of wood to stack and season properly for next winter so not coming away entirely empty handed, just a year out

Cheers