Commuter cyclist negativity

railer201

average_runner wrote: »

From Irish Statue Book


38.—(1) On a roadway on which a zebra crossing has been provided a pedestrian shall not cross the roadway within 50 feet of the crossing except by the crossing.


(2) When a vehicle is approaching a zebra crossing a pedestrian shall not step on to that crossing if his action is likely to cause the driver either to brake suddenly or to swerve.

From the Rules of the Road:

You don't have right of way over other traffic until you actually step on to the crossing.

Never step on to the crossing if this would cause a driver to brake or swerve suddenly.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I would argue the opposite. Regardless of the law, why put yourself in a position which will at best might injure you, and at worst kill you (versus a truck for example).

That is absolutely not a risk I'm willing to take in an attempt to police the rules of the road as I see them.

The clip you posted is certainly an example if very poor driving, but the cyclist did pause a moment before braking in order to prove a point in my view.

I think the example in the OP is quite over exaggerated and the example I provided is closer to reality based on my own experience (I know, anecdotal). I don't think it matters what I do personally in these situations, but I don't recall overtaking left turning vehicles. If that adds any weight to my argument, that's another story.

cython

railer201 wrote: »

From the Rules of the Road:

ROTR is only an interpretation of the legislation (i.e. of no actual legal relevance), and thus the latter takes precedence, as the interpretation contained therein can be flawed.

cjt156

Christopher Sparse Pub wrote: »

Did the vehicle in the video I posted have the right of way, because he was ahead and indicating.

The video you quoted was different to the situation in the OP. In your video the car overtook and immediately made the left turn. Stupid and dangerous.

The OP's situation was a series of cyclists passing traffic on the left. You may only pass on the left in certain circumstances. One exception is when that traffic is indicating to turn.
It can be a fine line I'll grant you but each situation has to be judged independently.

Christopher Sparse Pub wrote: »

People translate this law into "I am indicating left, I have right of way, to hell with everybody else".

The same could be said of some cyclists - I'm in a cycle lane and I have right of way, to hell with everybody else.

Actually, no; we still have to abide by the law - one of which defines when and where we can pass on the left.

railer201

cython wrote: »

ROTR is only an interpretation of the legislation (i.e. of no actual legal relevance), and thus the latter takes precedence, as the interpretation contained therein can be flawed.

I am aware of that, but that does not mean it is necessarily flawed in each and every instance either. The ROTR is what most road users go by - i.e. the RSA's interpretation.

average_runner

CramCycle wrote: »

First of all, should be their not his. Second, I understand these have been updated to include metric measurements and other changes (could be wrong).

Lastly, a driver approaching a zebra crossing where there is a pedestrian in a position that they move onto the crossing should not be driving in a fashion that braking suddenly or swerving is required.

That is why they have the flashing yellow lights at the crossings.

His/her take that up with the authors.

If you are driving at 20km/h and someone walks out in front of you, you will hit them, so the walker has to respect the cyclist/motorists.

Can expect every car or cyclists to drop below 10k before a zebra crossing

CramCycle

Christopher Sparse Pub wrote: »

By promoting "give way to left turning vehicles" you will encourage this type of behavior, watch the first 10 seconds;

Slightly different scenario, the car driver was completely in the wrong there. They overtook a vehicle to turn across it. In pretty short order as well. Cyclist was damned lucky, the driver in that clip should be hauled up on it by the Gardai.

PaddyWilliams

Pinch Flat wrote: »

First of all, enjoy your commutre. It'll make you healthier, fitter and is constant duration wise (more or less) all year round. For me, the commute is the best part of my morning and evening.

There's a lot of people that feel as a cyclist that doesn't pay "road tax" that you've no place on the roads which are "dangerous". Accept, as you have done, that you're going to come across the odd cOck. My own tenets for using the road:

1. Don't engage with abusive motorists. If anything progresses beyond that (i.e. deliberately aggressive / dangerous driving that endangers you), feel free to call traffic watch. They're normally pretty responsive and chances are a Garda car at the least will call around to the offenders house at an unsociable hour of the morning. I had it with a young "lady" who tried to run me off the road a few years back, Garda called to say he's spoken to her at 7 am on a Saturday morning. Might make people think.

2. Never trust a person in a motorized vehicle. Chances are they're thinking of themselves and focused more on their Facebook status / make up / bowl of cereal or the imminent red light over your safety. They won't see you at roundabouts or junctions, even if you've got a hi-vis bike, clothing, wheels and massive strobes. They're more interested in their journey than your safety.If you don't have eye contact, assume they haven't seen you.

3. Never, never, never (and I mean never!) go up the inside of HGV's. Biggest killer of cyclists.

4. Don't be afraid to take the lane and cycle defensively - had it just this afternoon while on a Dublin bike - took the lane at Jury's Christchurch going ahead, white van man up my a$$, revving aggressively then sped through the light left. He would have quite happily turned left in front of me if I had of stayed left. Couple of seconds won't kill people, but someone taking a chance to run a red can injure / kill you.

Just had to take issue with the part I've highlighted above, which is a sweeping generalism of all motorists. Yes, there are drivers who do exactly as you have said and I hate motorists like that. But, not all of us are like that and personally, I value human life. Safe journies to you all.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Well to hell with the ROTR to be honest, I won't be looking up the simplified, easily misunderstood version any time soon. However, the SI is a bloody difficult thing to decipher for an average Joe such as myself. Most people are going to refer tot he ROTR handbook or the likes and stick by their guns. Very difficult to move away from that.

Carawaystick

cjt156 wrote: »

The same could be said of some cyclists - I'm in a cycle lane and I have right of way, to hell with everybody else.

Actually, no; we still have to abide by the law - one of which defines when and where we can pass on the left.

As there are no cycle lanes, only cycle tracks, I'm unclear of the law about a person driving on a track parallel to a road.

cython

PaddyWilliams wrote: »

Just had to take issue with the part I've highlighted above, which is a sweeping generalism of all motorists. Yes, there are drivers who do exactly as you have said and I hate motorists like that. But, not all of us are like that and personally, I value human life. Safe journies to you all.

To be fair, I think there was an element of deliberate exaggeration in the poster's quantification of the problem, but unfortunately with these drivers being as common as they are the difficulty in seeing into cars to determine whether or not a driver is one of them, it is simply safer to assume that they are. Having said that, I tend to be less specific and would typically advocate assuming that every class of road user is likely to do something stupid, and to walk/cycle/drive accordingly. If you assume the worst, you'll be pleasantly surprised when it doesn't materialise

kirving

PaddyWilliams wrote: »

Just had to take issue with the part I've highlighted above, which is a sweeping generalism of all motorists. Yes, there are drivers who do exactly as you have said and I hate motorists like that. But, not all of us are like that and personally, I value human life. Safe journies to you all.

It's about the best piece of advice you can give to a road user. Trust absolutely noone when their decision can have a bad outcome for you.

Would you have trust in the qualified electrician who left a note on a bare wire saying "not connected" and then touch it? It doens't matter what's reasonable, how good most electricians are, how qualified he is, there is no excuse to touch the wire until you've confirmed yourself that it's OK.

Danbo!

Christopher Sparse Pub wrote: »

Well you don't have the right to stop traffic, so the cyclist who overtook you was in the right to cycle on, but not right to cycle wrecklessly. In the video above, there's nothing ridiculous happening here, apart from your expectation of the cyclist. The cyclist has green and is going straight ahead. The car should wait until the lane is clear. I find what the cyclist did in the video to be dangerous (over taking on the right), this can cause more distractions for the driver and lead to an accident, the cyclist should have continued going straight. If the cyclist was on his/her own, then overtaking on the right (when safe) was a nice gesture.

By promoting "give way to left turning vehicles" you will encourage this type of behavior, watch the first 10 seconds;

:rolleyes: Some logic. So by allowing someone out of a side road when driving, I'm promoting people blindly driving out of junctions? Good stuff.

In the video, there is something ridiculous going on. A cyclist is illegally undertaking a car turning left and just generally being uncourteous to another road user. I've no idea how you came to the conclusion that overtaking on the right, legally, could lead to an accident unless it was the cyclist on their own when it would have been a nice gesture

CramCycle

Danbo! wrote: »

:rolleyes: Some logic. So by allowing someone out of a side road when driving, I'm promoting people blindly driving out of junctions? Good stuff.

In the video, there is something ridiculous going on. A cyclist is illegally undertaking a car turning left and just generally being uncourteous to another road user. I've no idea how you came to the conclusion that overtaking on the right, legally, could lead to an accident unless it was the cyclist on their own when it would have been a nice gesture

A car overtook the cyclist and hook turned. I have no idea what you were watching but the car is unreservedly in the wrong.

Danbo!

CramCycle wrote: »

A car overtook the cyclist and hook turned. I have no idea what you were watching but the car is unreservedly in the wrong.

Sorry I was unclear, I was referring to the video I posted earlier. I agree that the left hook was crazy dangerous, I just meant that by letting people turn ahead of me I am not promoting this behaviour.

Roadhawk

This whole "who has right of way" is not rocket science...

Common sense would guide us to believe that vehicles should not jump ahead of a cyclist to try make a left turn. Also a cyclist should not undertake a car that is ahead and turning left. Very simple, stay safe.

This is what happens when you do whatever you want on the roads...watch closely from 1.49:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYOz86G_oYU

Danbo!

Roadhawk wrote: »

This whole "who has right of way" is not rocket science...

Common sense would guide us to believe that vehicles should not jump ahead of a cyclist to try make a left turn. Also a cyclist should not undertake a car that is ahead and turning left. Very simple, stay safe.

This is what happens when you do whatever you want on the roads...watch closely from 1.49:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYOz86G_oYU

This articulates the point I was (poorly) attempting to make.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Danbo! wrote: »

:rolleyes: Some logic. So by allowing someone out of a side road when driving, I'm promoting people blindly driving out of junctions? Good stuff.

In the video, there is something ridiculous going on. A cyclist is illegally undertaking a car turning left and just generally being uncourteous to another road user. I've no idea how you came to the conclusion that overtaking on the right, legally, could lead to an accident unless it was the cyclist on their own when it would have been a nice gesture

I didn't say you are promoting people blindly driving out of junctions, but you can't stop other road users. If you want to stop and let somebody out, that's well and good, but don't get upset if the cyclist behind you doesn't share your same view.

Yea I checked your video again and it is ridiculous what the second cyclist done, I am not 100% sure about the guy in the yellow jacket. Should he have stopped too? The light is what confuses me in this situation. I arrived at my conclusion because I was wrong.

Danbo!

Christopher Sparse Pub wrote: »

I didn't say you are promoting people blindly driving out of junctions, but you can't stop other road users. If you want to stop and let somebody out, that's well and good, but don't get upset if the cyclist behind you doesn't share your same view.

Yea I checked your video again and it is ridiculous what the second cyclist done, I am not 100% sure about the guy in the yellow jacket. Should he have stopped too? The light is what confuses me in this situation. I arrived at my conclusion because I was wrong.

The first cyclist I'm not sure about as it's hard to see who gets there first. It's nice to see an attentive driver checking mirrors. I just thought the second cyclist was a bit wreckless or inattentive to do what he did.

I understand you cannot stop traffic and shouldn't wave people out, but the latter happens frequently. It is up to the person being waved out to also check it's clear but yeah I can see how it causes trouble. It actually happened on my driving test and it was the most awkward thing ever as I couldn't go and there was a few seconds of a stare off. Again I just thought the cyclist who overtook me and undertook the car was just plain wreckless.

Edit: apologies for the tone in the first paragraph of my last post. I reread it, seems I was having a **** day at work.

RayCun

Christopher Sparse Pub wrote: »

Yea I checked your video again and it is ridiculous what the second cyclist done, I am not 100% sure about the guy in the yellow jacket. Should he have stopped too? The light is what confuses me in this situation. I arrived at my conclusion because I was wrong.

The guy in the yellow jacket was right to stop and let the car turn. The car was ahead of the motorbike and indicating left when the guy in yellow jacket overtook the motorbike. So from the point of view of the guy in the yellow jacket, the car was in front of him and indicating left. The car (legally, morally, and common-sensically) has the right of way, the cyclist(s) should stay behind.

In the video you posted the car was driving dangerously. Overtaking to immediately slow down and turn is dangerous driving whether you are overtaking a car or a bike.

learn_more

Christopher Sparse Pub wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwFcAGDLWxs

That road is a nightmare for me. It's extremely narrow and extremely busy. I wish it would be widened which could be done as the footpath by the strand is very wide.

I used to go up on the footpath on that road to let traffic pass as a cyclist can easily cause a tailback, but of course, you can't do that anymore.

Veloce150

learn_more wrote: »

That road is a nightmare for me. It's extremely narrow and extremely busy. I wish it would be widened which could be done as the footpath by the strand is very wide.

Good reactions and emotional control there!

mcgratheoin

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Danbo - you should never gesticulate to another road user. I know people do it all the time but it is much safer just to wait in that scenario and leave it to the other road user to decide whether it is safe to proceed or not. Many people who make such gestures do not check their surroundings first to establish that it is safe.

Yep, I was knocked down in such a scenario. I was "overtaking on the left" up a bike lane beside stationary traffic past Harold's Cross when a car (having got a wave from a stopped vehicle) turned across the line of traffic into a petrol station and knocked me off my bike. Her initial response was "I didn't see you lying there" to which I replied, "I wasn't lying here until you hit me!"

GreenFolder2

Issue is very simple really - poor cycling infrastructure and narrow roads leads to a perception that cyclists are holding up car traffic.

In a lot of cases a % drivers in rush hour traffic behave abysmally and cause problems all over the place - cutting through on end of amber lights, cutting merging traffic off / refusing to allow lane changes etc

I was driving in Cork City this morning and needed to change lane to get to where I was going. Every single car refused to let me in or closed the gap aggressively. The result was I was stuck blocking the other lane waiting to get in.

Same bad attitude gets applied to cyclists or anyone perceived to delay thrm by 1 nanosecond.

mcgratheoin

CramCycle wrote: »

On the overtaking on the left. Most of the junctions on my commute, I get into lane and then overtake on the right rather than play guess who is going to jump their clutch. Interestingly, DB drivers on my commute seem to prefer this, and most drivers seem to like the fact that I am, in their view, getting out of the way.

+1 on that, but also it's important to remember that not everyone cycles the same way. My personal experience has been that if I'm cycling at any decent clip (>25kph) in the city, drivers are happy enough for me to be in the middle of a lane as I'm not particularly holding them up. My commute home takes me along the quays and through the Phoenix Park and I've never had a problem moving from the bus lane at Guinness out to the right turning lanes at Heuston which should be the trickiest part of the spin. If I more or less match my speed with traffic, most drivers seem quite happy to slow down a little bit to let me merge across lanes. Again, that probably won't work for everyone but I find motorists are happy to be able to think "I see the cyclist, I know what he wants to do, I can see that he has seen me as well so I'll make sure he has enough space to feel comfortable making his manoeuvre"

jive

mcgratheoin wrote: »

+1 on that, but also it's important to remember that not everyone cycles the same way. My personal experience has been that if I'm cycling at any decent clip (>25kph) in the city, drivers are happy enough for me to be in the middle of a lane as I'm not particularly holding them up.

I find the same when tipping along at a decent speed. As a side issue I notice when you are going a decent speed a lot more cars pull out in front of you not realising you're not going a casual 15kmph

CramCycle

jive wrote: »

I find the same when tipping along at a decent speed. As a side issue I notice when you are going a decent speed a lot more cars pull out in front of you not realising you're not going a casual 15kmph

I find pulling out into the lane when you see a car nosing out tends to indicate to them, it is not worth doing. Stay in the bike lane and they will probably pull out on you. Often stopping with their posterior still in the bike lane.

Chips Lovell

This is good advice. Always take the lane at junctions. If you give people an opportunity to do something idiotic, there's a good chance some people will seize it with both hands, such as pull out in front of you or overtake you whilst turning.

Zechariah Chubby Link

Zechariah Chubby Link wrote: »

I've started to follow YellowDublinCyclist on youtube, he rides more or less the same roads. Records all the different transgressors withouth screaming his head off like some of the other GoPro idiots

That's really not true. Several of his videos showed him expressing "exasperation" towards other people who were endangering him.

They're not there now. Check his playlists to see that some videos have been deleted.

In any case, you can't tell if he does react that way or not in his most recent uploads because the audio tracks tend to be removed.

Expressing anger is natural when someone puts your life at risk. People react differently to threatening situations. It's often impossible to reason with motorists who think they can do whatever they want because the opportunity for interaction is brief, so it is the simplest way of telling them that they've done something wrong.

Roadhawk

<SNIP>